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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

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The Terminator said:
Charlie and everything he represented were/are repulsive, but as a free speech absolutist, I condemn fullstop, his cold blooded killing. IDK why saying that has to be controversial, the online left is doing nothing but gloating right now. I would be on that bandwagon if this happened in 2016 when I was in my 20s, now I am wiser.
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I completely agree with you that any political violence is wrong and the response from a fringe minority celebrating it is also wrong.

However, I am genuinely curious about something. Until the other night, I knew just about nothing when it comes to Kirk. You mentioned 'everything he represented were/are repulsive'. I have watched a couple of clips, but could you expand on that comment. I agree that his support of Trump is repulsive, but can you go into what else you disagree with him on? Was there things that he said that were factually incorrect?

I am asking to better understand the response of all this. It is one thing for a prominent elected official to get assassinated. But a podcaster who spoke at colleges campuses? I just don't get it.
 
I guess I don't understand why now political violence is a problem. It didn't seem to be when the Minnesota legislators were killed or Shapiro was firebombed, or when the Capitol was bum rushed.

Hmmmmm
 
michaelskis said:
I completely agree with you that any political violence is wrong and the response from a fringe minority celebrating it is also wrong.

However, I am genuinely curious about something. Until the other night, I knew just about nothing when it comes to Kirk. You mentioned 'everything he represented were/are repulsive'. I have watched a couple of clips, but could you expand on that comment. I agree that his support of Trump is repulsive, but can you go into what else you disagree with him on? Was there things that he said that were factually incorrect?

I am asking to better understand the response of all this. It is one thing for a prominent elected official to get assassinated. But a podcaster who spoke at colleges campuses? I just don't get it.
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I'm another free speech absolutist. Unless you're in the genre of "fightin' words" and threats (both well-defined under constitutional law these days), you get to say whatever stupid crap you want. I will note that it does not absolve you from private consequences for your words (like people getting fired for saying racist crap, etc.).

@michaelskis - you may not be as familiar because you haven't worked around college towns since Kirk came on the scene, plus I suspect you aren't a big fan of influencer culture (neither am I). Kirk's organization was right-wing extremist influence on college campuses, based on young men being uniquely susceptible/impressionable. I've lived in a college town for 25 years and have had the unpleasant experience of seeing Kirk up close and personal. He was nothing more than a provocateur, which is why I'm bothered by people that are all like "oh he's so engaged in the way we should be debating blah blah blah." His "debates" are nothing more than provocations and instigations, and his "organization" nothing but a graft operation.

But he should not be dead for this. He should be irrelevant.

The fascinating/disgusting piece of this is that he has commanded the airwaves and every bit of political attention over the last two days. The school shooting has received no attention beyond the incredibly dystopian split screen coverage of a school shooting and political hit that, in my opinion, perfectly incapsulates the death of the American Experiment. Absolutely nothing out of the Trump administration, not a single word that I've found. Even Democrats have been stone cold silent, focusing instead on Kirk. Children are expendable. Pro-life only until birth. After that, you're collateral damage on the political minefields.

JD Vance blew off a 9/11 ceremony in NYC to go do some political theater and inexplicably use government resources for the most unnecessary use of Air Force 2 as a hearse. There is no better manifestation of "Never forget... I guess we forgot" than Vance's actions.

And Trump has once again failed to rise to the occasion to deescalate and actually be a stateman/leader. In fact, he has only made it worse. Particularly the contrast with Hortman in Minnesota (who was an actual public servant rather than a provocateur). I singularly blame him for escalating political violence.
 
Hawkeye66 said:
I guess I don't understand why now political violence is a problem. It didn't seem to be when the Minnesota legislators were killed or Shapiro was firebombed, or when the Capitol was bum rushed.

Hmmmmm
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Or Pelosi's husband was attacked in his own home
 
Planit said:
From page 351 of this thread. This might help explain Kirk too.
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In the past he's stated that women's suffrage and the Civil Rights Act were mistakes.

He used a lot of inflammatory rhetoric but came at it from a more debate style of approach instead of screaming. He's pushed a bunch of different conspiracies over time (Covid, voter fraud, etc). He was getting further and further into Christian Nationalism/Dominionism.

I feel for his family and hate that he was killed.
 
The Terminator said:
Yo back the f*** off. I mean it.

You dont like what I have to say, block me and be done with it.
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Are you threatening me? So tolerant and inclusive...:r:

Anyhoo, chill out dude - I was just noting that the usage of "with that being said" is incredibly lazy rhetoric.
 
Like what he stood for. Don't like what he stood for. But Charlie Kirk's influence on Gen Z cannot be underestimated. I'm around a lot of Gen Z people due to the age of my daughters and I see it all over the place.
 
Planit said:
^^^What happened to Chicago getting theirs?
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TN's governor will welcome them with open arms where Illinois was planning to challenge their use. I've heard the Guard spent a good bit of time mulching beds and picking up trash in DC. If it's still the same as the last time I was there, Memphis could stand some litter pick up and beautification.
 
Over the weekend I dug into what Charlie Kirk was all about so I could better understand what is going on. I found myself both agreeing and disagreeing with elements of what he said. What really surprised me was his faith first foundations, but he also was a very passionate supporter of Trump. I don't see Trump as someone who give a damn about faith and a lot of Trumps actions are counter to a lot of the faith believes of Kirk. But Kirk didn't waver on that foundation and was even calling for the release of all the Epstein Files.

The part that really surprised me was how we communicated his message through open debate, especially on college campuses where he said college was a scam. He didn't back down, and despite not going to college, it was very apparent that he did his homework on many of this historical topics. The majority of what I saw was he asked questions of those who were passionately opposed to his beliefs on a subject, and the students either didn't have a response or their response didn't make any sense.

I asked my oldest about him. My oldest is very, very left leaning. He said that he didn't like anything that Kirk had to say, and was quick to note that it was wrong for him to be killed. But when I asked him what it was that Kirk had to say that he didn't agree with, he didn't have anything to say other than his friends didn't like him. So I asked him to ask his friends what it was about him that they didn't agree with, and it sounds like they too had never heard anything that he had to say.

A local representative for the State legislature made a comment yesterday that has me wondering. He said that much like the assassination of MLK was a turning point in the Civil Rights movement, the assassination of Charlie Kirk will be a turning point for the conservative movement in the US. While I was quick to dismiss the comment, I was thinking about it this morning and the amount of coverage it has had indicates that maybe he is right. CNN is reporting that his social media pages have increased by millions. I was also told that the regional representative for the Turning Point USA group indicated that they had more interest in the last few days than they have had the past several years and they anticipate growing 1000 new chapters this week.

The pastor at my church talked about it briefly in a larger bipartisan context of evil. He noted that Kirk was a martyr and believes that he was killed because of his outwardly Christian stance than his politics. The Southern Baptist Convention is releasing a joint statement with several other Christian denominations condemning the martialism of Kirk and calling for this to become a catalyst for a return to religion in our society. But this was in context of multiple events including the stabbing in Charlotte, multiple shootings across the country including the one in the Church in MN, and the political violence that appears to occur from both the left and the right.

Overall, I say all that to say that I learned two significant lessons about Kirk. The first is that he had a significant impact on the youth in American before death, and now he is having a significant impact on older adults after death. The second is how many people are making opinions or judgements about Kirk without ever watching any of his videos or digging into what he believed. There are a couple of Cyburbians that I know are the exception and have posted thoughtful and educated responses regarding their thoughts on his believes, but I think they are the minority. I don't just think it is people who are in opposition to him either. Too many people on both sides are passing judgement only based on what other people say. So with that I say watch his videos and read his posts. See what he says he stands for and don't just accept the responses from either side, but do your own fact checking to see if either of them are correct. Similarly, know why you believe what you believe.

Finally, I want to comment on people being fired for celebrating his death on social media. My initial thought on this was good, they should be fired, and in some cases depending on what they did for a living, I still support that position. However I also see people calling for the death penalty for the shooter and I question if that kind of public proclamation on social media is appropriate either.
 
I didn't like the things he said.

Gun deaths are worth it. - sure, until it's your family and friends that pay the price.
Comparing abortion to the Holocaust.
Women should have children, not careers.
Empathy is bad.
Black people were better off under Jim Crow laws.
The list of stupid things he said can go on and on, but if you want to see his "family values" I guess that's fine. I just think he was another talking head that said outrageous crap to get attention and make money.
 
Wind power is worthless if the wind doesn't blow.
Solar power is useless when it gets dark.
www.rawstory.com

'Dumbest people in history': Trump official astonishes critics with eye-popping claim

Critics over the weekend heaped scorn on the US Department of Energy after it made demonstrably false claims about renewable energy.In a post on X late last week, the Department of Energy (DOE) argued that "wind and solar energy infrastructure is essentially worthless when it is dark outside...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
 
DVD said:
I didn't like the things he said.

Gun deaths are worth it. - sure, until it's your family and friends that pay the price.
Comparing abortion to the Holocaust.
Women should have children, not careers.
Empathy is bad.
Black people were better off under Jim Crow laws.
The list of stupid things he said can go on and on, but if you want to see his "family values" I guess that's fine. I just think he was another talking head that said outrageous crap to get attention and make money.
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He laughed all the way to the bank.

I do not condone political violence. Freedom of speech means we all have to listen to 💩 we don’t agree with.

The right was largely silent when the Hortmans were killed in their own home in Minnesota. Another state politician was attacked by the same perpetrator the same day. The Orange Menace did the needful and posted that it was dreadful and then went on about his day. Also victims of political violence: MI Gov. Whitmer was nearly kidnapped, PA Gov. Shapiro and his family were at the governors residence when someone threw a Molotov cocktail through a window lighting the house on fire, Nancy Pelosi’s husband was victim of an attack in his home:

The many NFL teams fell all over themselves this week with Charlie Kirk earning recognition and a moment of silence. Definitely political, but rewinding back to Colin Kaepernick and his refusing to stand for the anthem-the NFL decided that was too political.

It’s the hypocrisy.
 
I feel like we're all standing around listening to what the guy on a soap box is saying. OMG, this random guy said the craziest thing! We must all discuss it! Or we could just walk on by and go about our day ignoring the crazy guy saying stupid things.
 
Honestly, Kirk was closer to Brother Jed than a real political figure. Saying outrageous things to get noticed and like Jed, someone always took the bait.
 
Hawkeye66 said:
Honestly, Kirk was closer to Brother Jed than a real political figure. Saying outrageous things to get noticed and like Jed, someone always took the bait.
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I haven't thought of Brother Jed and Sister Cindy in a long time. They would come through and argue with students a couple of times a year.

There's now a Chinese lady who stands on the corner downtown yelling in broken English about how the students are deviants and going to hell.
 
For the sake of discussion, how do you feel about those who celebrated the assassination of MLK?

Now before you all start slinging hate towards me, I think that a lot of people have taken the punishments of people voicing their opinions on this way too far and I don't support a lot of the people being fired because of their comments on the assignation of Kirk. I bring it up because there have been comparisons to MLK on both sides of the political spectrum.
 
It's hard to express personal versus political feelings

I'm not grieving over the death because this is a person I don't know. I have no personal connection. If you were a friend or family I would grieve.
It's kind of like when my wife tells me a celebrity dies. I'm sad that someone died, but I don't grieve because I have no connection.
On the political side of this one, I'm not going to miss that kind of rhetoric on the political stage. I'm not celebrating death, I'm just saying I don't think what he had to say was beneficial to the political discourse.

Also stop making this guy a martyr. He is no Susan B Anthony, MLK, Malcom X, and this list can go on with people you agree or disagree with but who did he fight for? White, gun owning, wealthy, men? What will they do without some kind of hero that speaks for them?
 
DVD said:
Also stop making this guy a martyr. He is no Susan B Anthony, MLK, Malcom X, and this list can go on with people you agree or disagree with but who did he fight for? White, gun owning, wealthy, men? What will they do without some kind of hero that speaks for them?
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I find it interesting that most of my social media real life acquaintances that have posted stuff about Charlie, and how we should mourn, take up arms, blah blah all fall under the same demo:
White, High School Diploma, lower middle class, yearn for the "good old days", and constantly complaining about the cost of things, or how life is unfair. Meanwhile:
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bureaucrat#3 said:
I haven't thought of Brother Jed and Sister Cindy in a long time. They would come through and argue with students a couple of times a year.

There's now a Chinese lady who stands on the corner downtown yelling in broken English about how the students are deviants and going to hell.
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I grew up in Macon, GA, home of Wise Blood and street preachers on every park bench .Its east/west ones wee c alled "boulevards because they enclosed public parks. Each park held benches at each end, and there the preachers stood, waving their bibles and predicting perdition.

My grandmother would put coins in my hand and tell me to drop them in those cups set out. A blind guitarist named Pearly Brown stayed on the wide sidewalks, but I remember his singing.
 
michaelskis said:
This might be the most ironic part. He openly welcomed criticism and direct debate, where as the guy in the oval is the opposite. I cannot comprehend how he was such a big supporter of him.
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...he was not. He just loves every distraction from Epstein.
 
michaelskis said:
For the sake of discussion, how do you feel about those who celebrated the assassination of MLK?

Now before you all start slinging hate towards me, I think that a lot of people have taken the punishments of people voicing their opinions on this way too far and I don't support a lot of the people being fired because of their comments on the assignation of Kirk. I bring it up because there have been comparisons to MLK on both sides of the political spectrum.
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Kirk's comparison to MLK is laughable. Kirk's profession was provocateur and self-promoter. Take away the financial element of being an influencer, and he is left with nothing really of significance in the American lexicon. How he emerged as anything really baffles me. MLK was a minister and sought to promote liberty via removal of barriers, direct action and policy engagement (that people forget was jumping across the aisles).

That said... as I've said I'm an absolutist when it comes to 1st amendment free speech. Like I don't even believe in rules about decency/obscenity--my belief in any 1st amendment encroachment is 100% limited to a John Locke-esque "force and fraud" scenario. It probably comes substantially from my perspective on art--that it should push boundaries & challenge. The issue with Jimmy Kimmel isn't that Disney/ABC sidelined him (private actions)... that's a private consequence between employer/employee. It is that the FCC chair went lightyears beyond his authority to threaten and coerce ABC (public actions by government), potentially on behalf of MAGA megadonor corporations like Sinclair, with ABC/Disney itself acting afterward. Trump's hubris to want credit for everything is what is creating his administration's Constitutional liabilities. He simply can't shut up, and the result is he is writing the ACLU's case for them.

There's also a very interesting lesson we're all getting to learn about corporate consolidation/acquisition and anti-trust, because the consolidation of local stations (that hold the actual broadcast licenses, not ABC) is what created space for the FCC to strongarm (and for the small cadre of station conglomerates like Sinclair to take control of programming). MAGA and Trump's rise is a symptom, not the disease. Which should scare you.

Money in politics and consolidated corporate power. It is the Russian model, and corporate oligarchs that even don't agree are failing to learn from history of German oligarchs that discovered they couldn't control the thing they thought they could control.
 
MacheteJames said:
It's just vibes and anecdotal, but I feel like the general shittiness is only going to start accelerating. I guess the question is how to live with at least some semblance of hope (maybe enthusiasm or positivity is too much for the moment) as the trendlines continue toward what feels like oblivion.

Meanwhile all we can do is just continue at our little jobs. Here, let me go ahead and process an SF-425 form to get over to the EDA by EOD today.
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Narrator: he was right. It did indeed start accelerating.
 
Planit said:
Wind power is worthless if the wind doesn't blow.
Solar power is useless when it gets dark.
www.rawstory.com

'Dumbest people in history': Trump official astonishes critics with eye-popping claim

Critics over the weekend heaped scorn on the US Department of Energy after it made demonstrably false claims about renewable energy.In a post on X late last week, the Department of Energy (DOE) argued that "wind and solar energy infrastructure is essentially worthless when it is dark outside...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
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Right along with "Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia is a powerful country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine. So, basically, that's wrong, and it goes against everything that we stand for." -Kamala Harris

And: "The Governor and I and we were all doing a tour of the library here and talking about the significance of the passage of time. Right? The significance of the passage of time. So, when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time in terms of what we need to do to lay these wires, what we need to do to create these jobs. And there is such great significance to the passage of time when we think about a day in the life of our children and what that means to the future of our nation, depending on whether or not they have the resources they need to achieve their God-given talent.'
And: "You know, when we talk about our children - I know for this group, we all believe that when we talk about the children of the community, they are a children of the community."

And: "It is status-quo thinking to believe that putting more police on the streets creates more safety. That's wrong. It's just wrong."
And: "So given where we are now, so no longer are you necessarily keeping those private files in some file cabinet that's locked in the basement of the house. It's on your laptop, and it's then therefore up here in this cloud that exists above us."

BTW, not a Trump supporter. Politicians or those closely connected say some very stupid shit.
 
michaelskis said:
For the sake of discussion, how do you feel about those who celebrated the assassination of MLK?

Now before you all start slinging hate towards me, I think that a lot of people have taken the punishments of people voicing their opinions on this way too far and I don't support a lot of the people being fired because of their comments on the assignation of Kirk. I bring it up because there have been comparisons to MLK on both sides of the political spectrum.
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Not mourning ≠ celebrating
 
Suburb Repairman said:
[SNIP] That said... as I've said I'm an absolutist when it comes to 1st amendment free speech. Like I don't even believe in rules about decency/obscenity--my belief in any 1st amendment encroachment is 100% limited to a John Locke-esque "force and fraud" scenario. It probably comes substantially from my perspective on art--that it should push boundaries & challenge. The issue with Jimmy Kimmel isn't that Disney/ABC sidelined him (private actions)... that's a private consequence between employer/employee. It is that the FCC chair went lightyears beyond his authority to threaten and coerce ABC (public actions by government), potentially on behalf of MAGA megadonor corporations like Sinclair, with ABC/Disney itself acting afterward. Trump's hubris to want credit for everything is what is creating his administration's Constitutional liabilities. He simply can't shut up, and the result is he is writing the ACLU's case for them. [/SNIP]
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I am squarely in this camp as well. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom of consequences. ABC/Disney was likely already looking for a reason to fire Kimmel. I watched the monologue and didn’t feel that it was offensive. Late night hosts have a long and rich history pushing boundaries. The most problematic issue here is the FCC.
 
kjel said:
Not mourning ≠ celebrating
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You are absolutely correct. Likewise I won’t criticize those who are mourning his death.

My question was in regards to the comparison of the two and how one of the political pundits asked if people would be calling for people to be fired if they celebrated MLK’s assassination.

Personally, I think it is BS they they fired Kimmel and several others. I think there might have been a few that took it too far and were in a position where trust is required, but those were isolated fringe cases.

I still can’t get over his hypocrisy of supporting Trump to the level that he did, and proclaiming Christian ideals in the same sentence.
 
word of the day -

opprobrium
1: something that brings disgrace
2a: public disgrace or ill fame that follows from conduct considered grossly wrong or vicious
Collaborators with the enemy did not escape the opprobrium of the townspeople.
2b: contempt, reproach
The bombing of the church was met with widespread opprobrium.
 
michaelskis said:
You are absolutely correct. Likewise I won’t criticize those who are mourning his death.

My question was in regards to the comparison of the two and how one of the political pundits asked if people would be calling for people to be fired if they celebrated MLK’s assassination.

Personally, I think it is BS they they fired Kimmel and several others. I think there might have been a few that took it too far and were in a position where trust is required, but those were isolated fringe cases.

I still can’t get over his hypocrisy of supporting Trump to the level that he did, and proclaiming Christian ideals in the same sentence.
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Kirk had nothing on MLK. That’s not to say that MLK didn’t have his faults. I’m absolutely certain some quarters in this country celebrated MLK’s death given how vehemently opposed many states were to the Civil Rights movement. Pretty sure Darth Cheeto and MAGA Congress will try and float a Charlie Kirk federal holiday.
 
kjel said:
Kirk had nothing on MLK. That’s not to say that MLK didn’t have his faults. I’m absolutely certain some quarters in this country celebrated MLK’s death given how vehemently opposed many states were to the Civil Rights movement. Pretty sure Darth Cheeto and MAGA Congress will try and float a Charlie Kirk federal holiday.
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The holiday thing wound not surprise me.

As for the comparison, I guess we will see what happens in the coming months and years. It appears that his message has momentum at the moment, but we will have to wait to see if it is sustainable. The guys in my church group seem to think so.
 
michaelskis said:
The holiday thing wound not surprise me.

As for the comparison, I guess we will see what happens in the coming months and years. It appears that his message has momentum at the moment, but we will have to wait to see if it is sustainable. The guys in my church group seem to think so.
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It's not sustainable. and yesterday's rally remembrance "get together" really just proved that all this pomp and circumstance is just another episode of Season 5 of the Righteous Gemstones.
 
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