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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Non Sequitur by Wiley Miller
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Planit said:
How did that Alaskan trip go?

“So at this point …no sanctions, no ceasefire, and no deadlines?,”
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It was only 3 hours instead of 7 since Pooty got all he wanted right from the git-go. Crimea + all the Donbas (including unoccupied Ukrainian land)? Sure - anything else I can get you?

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Donald Trump Snl GIF by Saturday Night Live
 
Even though I did not agree with many of Obama's policies, he is a good person and I genuinely think that he had the best interest of the County at heart. That is not something I can say about the current President.

Having said that... WHY?
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www.obama.org

About the Obama Presidential Center

The Obama Presidential Center represents a historic opportunity to build a world-class museum and public gathering space that celebrates our nation’s first African American President and First Lady on the South Side of Chicago.
www.obama.org www.obama.org

It reminds me of an Iron ore mine shaft. We drove by it this past spring while in Chicago and was trying to figure out who would build something so amazingly ugly in such a phenominal city.
 
michaelskis said:
Even though I did not agree with many of Obama's policies, he is a good person and I genuinely think that he had the best interest of the County at heart. That is not something I can say about the current President.

Having said that... WHY?
View attachment 65175
www.obama.org

About the Obama Presidential Center

The Obama Presidential Center represents a historic opportunity to build a world-class museum and public gathering space that celebrates our nation’s first African American President and First Lady on the South Side of Chicago.
www.obama.org www.obama.org

It reminds me of an Iron ore mine shaft. We drove by it this past spring while in Chicago and was trying to figure out who would build something so amazingly ugly in such a phenominal city.
Click to expand...
Eye of the beholder and all that.
 
michaelskis said:
Even though I did not agree with many of Obama's policies, he is a good person and I genuinely think that he had the best interest of the County at heart. That is not something I can say about the current President.

Having said that... WHY?
View attachment 65175
www.obama.org

About the Obama Presidential Center

The Obama Presidential Center represents a historic opportunity to build a world-class museum and public gathering space that celebrates our nation’s first African American President and First Lady on the South Side of Chicago.
www.obama.org www.obama.org

It reminds me of an Iron ore mine shaft. We drove by it this past spring while in Chicago and was trying to figure out who would build something so amazingly ugly in such a phenominal city.
Click to expand...

I sort of like it but I do enjoy oddball brutalist architecture. Your comparison to a iron ore mine shaft is a pretty good one! It looks like that tower should contain some elevators to a series of bunkers 800m below the surface.

Speaking of mine shafts - I was just telling my kids that we should go to the UP and tour a mine shaft. Have you ever been to any of the ones up there?
 
WSU MUP Student said:
I sort of like it but I do enjoy oddball brutalist architecture. Your comparison to a iron ore mine shaft is a pretty good one! It looks like that tower should contain some elevators to a series of bunkers 800m below the surface.

Speaking of mine shafts - I was just telling my kids that we should go to the UP and tour a mine shaft. Have you ever been to any of the ones up there?
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If you make it to Copper Country, this is the one to see.
https://www.visitkeweenaw.com/things-to-do/museums-history/copper-mine-tours/ (Copper Mine Tours | Visit Keweenaw)

while not a "Mine shaft tour" this is a good tour of the history of Iron Ore mining in the UP.
 
michaelskis said:
Even though I did not agree with many of Obama's policies, he is a good person and I genuinely think that he had the best interest of the County at heart. That is not something I can say about the current President.

Having said that... WHY?
View attachment 65175
www.obama.org

About the Obama Presidential Center

The Obama Presidential Center represents a historic opportunity to build a world-class museum and public gathering space that celebrates our nation’s first African American President and First Lady on the South Side of Chicago.
www.obama.org www.obama.org

It reminds me of an Iron ore mine shaft. We drove by it this past spring while in Chicago and was trying to figure out who would build something so amazingly ugly in such a phenominal city.
Click to expand...
He's changing it up. Look at their official portraits well done but very different stylistically. Of course, presidential libraries are just museums to the individual.

I can only imagine what Trumps will look like, but assume its going to be very gold, shiny, and bigger than Obamas.
 
Why do you believe what you believe when it comes to politics? I ask this not as a rhetorical question, but in all seriousness.

The background for my question is based on several comments that I have seen in here, Facebook, in person where I live, and several other places. There is this absolutist conviction that so many people have about an entire platform that I frankly do not understand. There are particular positions that I am absolute on, but some are on one side of the political spectrum, while others are on the other side. I have spoken before about how people have pushed back on me when I haven't supported "their" candidate.

So I am genuinely curious on why people believe what they believe when they call themselves a Democrat, Republican, Liberal, or Conservative. What was it that caused you to form that world view. Because frankly, I think that if you can't explain why, then maybe you might not actually believe what you think you believe.

I also say that because I personally believe that the majority of Americans don't have this absolutist conviction and that if there was a more centrist candidate who was able to get the same level of exposure as the two major parties, they would win in a landslide.
 
I consider myself classically liberal (lowercase L). Liberty, equality, individual rights, rule of law, preference towards limited government (act to prevent force/fraud like John Locke, tragedy of the commons issues like environment, etc.). I have long taken the view of political candidates and political parties as mass transit... you go with the one that will get you the closest to your destination, even if it doesn't get you all the way to the front door.

My shapers:
  • I was the upper-middle class kid in an otherwise pretty working class neighborhood with a lot of small business people, so I tend to pull for the little guy. Many of my friends were just plain poor. The Democratic party back then was squarely the "party of the little guy."
  • My neighborhood was very brown. Several of my friends' parents spoke English as second language, and weren't super fluent. But dinner was :swedishchef:! They worked their asses off, and it seemed like they faced a lot of discrimination/barriers that people like me didn't. That stuck with me. It was reinforced when we moved and I ended-up at a 98% white high school where someone asked if I was a <insert negative slur targeting people of Mexican heritage> lover because of my appearance. I'm forever thankful to the civics teacher that saw I was wired different and kinda took me and some others in. Welcome to 'burb fixer the social justice warrior.
  • I noticed that the really rich people in the city didn't seem to do shit for the community. The rich kids I was around were all assholes, every one of them. This was the beginning of my formed opinion that the wealthy are generally bad and got there by trampling people rather than by bringing people with them.
  • I have always loved nature and the outdoors, from a very young age. Like there are very few pictures of me as a little kid with shoes on because I was always running around barefoot. Even today I love the feel of dirt and grass on my feet. Even rock and gravel.
  • My city had several industrial plants, which had created negative environmental impacts. I distinctly remember that we had to stop fishing/crabbing in the bay we liked to go to. The beaches often had significant tar balls from offshore oil activity. One of my friends lived close to plant, and sometimes he couldn't go outside because the air would irritate breathing.
  • I've always been someone that people found was easy to talk to, a good listener and could keep secrets. It led me to getting a lot of exposure to challenges, often deeply personal. I've been like this since a very young age.
  • I have known three people that have directly told me they had abortions (two that I knew as they were going through it, one that told me after). An additional chose to end her life because of how her moral-religious upbringing coupled with her being terrified of her parents' reactions That's when I recognized that making that decision is far from impulsive--that it is very painful and absolutely a last resort, and that we should trust that decision. That's also when I really saw how manipulative religiously-affiliated pregnancy crisis centers were (I went with a friend to one), and really learned how difficult/complicated adoption is for the birth mother. Honestly, this whole series is one of the things that started me down my path to heavily questioning and ultimately de-affiliating from organized religion.
    • Related: a critical value for me is keeping theocratic policy as far away from government as possible
  • A friend of mine in Boy Scouts told me he was gay, and I think was pleasantly surprised that I didn't give a shit. He came out openly in high school after I moved, and was basically kicked out of his troop. It kept him of attaining his Eagle rank.
  • I love history. Throughout human history, nothing good has come from intermingling religion and government. Quite the opposite--it has almost without fail led to violence, oppression and genocide.
  • The city I grew up in did not have zoning. Despite being a planner, I tend to be highly libertarian when it comes to property rights and zoning. I generally believe zoning has done more harm than good, at least in terms of exclusionary residential.
 
Interesting question. I will say right off the bat that I do not think that the wealthy are generally "bad". Douchebags come in all shapes, sizes, ages, races and other socio-economic groups.

I said this during election season. Candidates do not get to choose what the electorate cares about. I completely agree with @michaelskis that I believe most people are more centrists. It's the issues on the "edges" that people get people motivated to vote. For example, while I think most people will say they certainly want a clean environment, many of those efforts do not directly or visibly impact many people. So while they care, until it's in their backyard it's going to not be as important as say the issues with trans persons. It's become pretty apparent that parents of girls who play sports are not at all interested in their girls having to compete against biological males. And that's closer to them because it could happen at their kid's next match or game.

Another reality is that people are not cool with crimes not being prosecuted in a lot of cities. They do not feel safe when there are no consequences or not even investigated at all. When you see businesses leaving neighborhoods you probably need to rethink your policies. It's business, not a charity and no company is going to continually operate in an environment where they are being robbed blind.

That's just a couple of examples of how I think Republicans turned 2020 Biden voters into 2024 Trump voters. I see a lot of people who shake their heads when the current administration does another end run around the law or uses power to punish political opponents. They don't like it, but it's not "real" to them like other issues. Perhaps that's an oversimplification but that's my take.

As for me I have not belonged to a political party for over 20 years. I refuse to be labeled. It's also why while I actually enjoy true political discourse I've never been interested in working in anything higher than local government, where the R's and the D's don't (hopefully) matter nearly as much.
 
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MD Planner said:
Another reality is that people are not cool with crimes not being prosecuted in a lot of cities. They do not feel safe when there are no consequences or not even investigated at all. When you see businesses leaving neighborhoods you probably need to rethink your policies. It's business, not a charity and no company is going to continually operate in an environment where they are being robbed blind.

That's just a couple of examples of how I think Republicans turned 2020 Biden voters into 2024 Trump voters. I see a lot of people who shake their heads when the current administration does another end run around the law or uses power to punish political opponents. They don't like it, but it's not "real" to them like other issues. Perhaps that's an oversimplification but that's my take.
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You are very correct. Language framing around slogans "defund the police" was incredibly poor and did real damage to actually accomplishing police reforms that most I think agree were/are needed. I think it actually undid some significant gains in diversifying police forces, cooling recruitment and perhaps even attracting people to it that should not be in policing. Prosecutorial discretion got taken to an extreme in some places. There's a reality that good approaches to policing are important to neighborhood stability--the right for people to feel safe (but not oppressed/targeted... it's admittedly complicated). I know Biden attempted the immigration bill, but I honestly wish he would've pulled more aggressively on the levers of executive orders to more rapidly implement changes to demonstrate responsiveness. The border of Texas hasn't been unsafe, but it is fair to say that it has been chaotic and poorly managed (for several administrations, if we're being honest). The 2024 Biden then Harris campaign ignored the border.

Young me was definitely in the "rich people are bad" space. I've matured to recognize nuance, but I still view wealth with a great deal of suspicion/skepticism. I have learned that philanthropic values vary wildly by geography and even how they made their money.
 
I really applaud @Suburb Repairman and @MD Planner for their well thought out responses. This is the exact kind of thing that I was looking for in responses.

MD Planner said:
Another reality is that people are not cool with crimes not being prosecuted in a lot of cities. They do not feel safe when there are no consequences or not even investigated at all. When you see businesses leaving neighborhoods you probably need to rethink your policies. It's business, not a charity and no company is going to continually operate in an environment where they are being robbed blind.
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This has been playing out in Memphis for the past several years. One judge who recently retired would release people charged with violent crimes with super low bonds. One case he released a suspect charged with "five counts of attempted second-degree murder after Memphis police say he fired a .410 shotgun loaded with birdshot during an argument with another man over a parking spot" without bond. The pushback now goes way beyond political viewpoint.

In regard for being "desperate" and needing to commit crimes, I am going to call BS on that. Yes, there are those situations, but I think the problem is more social than anything else.

For me, my political views have changed over time. My shapers include:
  • Being raised in a lower middle-income household where I got my first job when I was in 7th grade because I wanted a new set of skis instead of the used ones my parents got me a few years earlier.
  • Living in a state where all the money went to the bigger down-state cities and we didn't get our infrastructure needs met.
  • Watching my mom reach out and support people, regardless of race, sexual orientation, or economic status.
  • Hearing stories from my maternal grandfather about his experiences as a fire chief in Detroit during the riots in the 60's & 70's and the disinvestment from Democratic mayors.
  • Having parents who despite not having college degrees were always reading and raised us to be veracious readers
  • A college political history professor who was very effective in pointing out all the things the Clinton administration was doing that went contrary to the founding fathers.
  • Watching how my dad lost his retirement savings due to taxes when his radio station was sold
  • Watching the City Council in my home town reject anything that promoted tourism or development in the idea of "Nothing Should Change" and today seeing the level of disinvestment in both the housing stock and downtown.
  • Becoming fascinated with revolutionary period history and not just reading about the founding fathers, but reading the books that the founders read. This was just a handful of years ago and it was because of this, that I realized that neither party really represented me.
  • Having a lot of family and friends who have done things that I personally disagree with, but support them anyways because it is the right thing to do.
 
Bubba said:
Reread the bolded part - you literally said that individual responsibility doesn't factor into the decision to commit criminal acts.
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I guess some of us have different levels of reading comprehension.

I didn't see anything in @Doohickie's comment about how a person feels about how their individual responsibility factors into their decision to commit crimes. Being in a situation where you feel like your only choice is to make a wrong choice is not the same as not considering your own individual responsibility. They are not mutually exclusive. One could commit a crime and know it's a bad choice as their doing it. One could be prepared to accept responsibility for their actions but still be willing to take part in said crime.
 
WSU MUP Student said:
I guess some of us have different levels of reading comprehension.

I didn't see anything in @Doohickie's comment about how a person feels about how their individual responsibility factors into their decision to commit crimes. Being in a situation where you feel like your only choice is to make a wrong choice is not the same as not considering your own individual responsibility. They are not mutually exclusive. One could commit a crime and know it's a bad choice as their doing it. One could be prepared to accept responsibility for their actions but still be willing to take part in said crime.
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Yeahhhh, I'm gonna disagree with you in general terms. It is rarely the only choice. The easiest maybe, but not the only one. It's culture more than anything. People think they are owed something, they see their parents, siblings others in their community help themselves to things that aren't theirs, they do the same thing.
 
Never felt worse about being an American in my lifetime. The political disagreements we grew up with are quaint now.

I pray for a stroke or heart attack. His or mine. Either would free me.
 
Hawkeye66 said:
Never felt worse about being an American in my lifetime. The political disagreements we grew up with are quaint now.

I pray for a stroke or heart attack. His or mine. Either would free me.
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The political disagreements now are no worse now than several other periods of history. 1860's 1910's, yearly 1970's. This too shall pass.

It is in times of great turmoil that we have the ability to find the unifying element that can bind us together as a nation. This might be that turmoil to raise up a candidate worthy of that office.
 
michaelskis said:
The political disagreements now are no worse now than several other periods of history. 1860's 1910's, yearly 1970's. This too shall pass.

It is in times of great turmoil that we have the ability to find the unifying element that can bind us together as a nation. This might be that turmoil to raise up a candidate worthy of that office.
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The unifying element is definitely a flag on a truck. I mean who doesn't like trucks and who doesn't like flags. Put them together and it's total awesomeness.
 
DVD said:
The unifying element is definitely a flag on a truck. I mean who doesn't like trucks and who doesn't like flags. Put them together and it's total awesomeness.
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That or Bacon...

I mean come on... do you even want to associate with someone who doesn't like bacon!
 
michaelskis said:
The political disagreements now are no worse now than several other periods of history. 1860's 1910's, yearly 1970's. This too shall pass.

It is in times of great turmoil that we have the ability to find the unifying element that can bind us together as a nation. This might be that turmoil to raise up a candidate worthy of that office.
Click to expand...

I think this is a lot worse than the the periods you mentioned besides maybe the 1850's and 60's.

Our constitution is being shredded before our eyes.
 
DVD said:
The unifying element is definitely a flag on a truck. I mean who doesn't like trucks and who doesn't like flags. Put them together and it's total awesomeness.
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Like this?

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(Yes, I know that's AI stuff generated by somebody on Newsom's communications staff but I'm loving it even if I don't care about Newsom)
 
The completely unhinged version of Gavin Newsom as depicted on social media has to be one of the all time greatest trolls of any individual.
 
Suburb Repairman said:
The completely unhinged version of Gavin Newsom as depicted on social media has to be one of the all time greatest trolls of any individual.
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And for good measure, just because laffs and all that (and Junior), we need a good online Trolly-McTrollTroll-Trollface to get this not-an-alternative-universe party started:

IMG_0776.jpeg
 
Hawkeye66 said:
I think this is a lot worse than the the periods you mentioned besides maybe the 1850's and 60's.

Our constitution is being shredded before our eyes.
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See, I don't see what Trump is doing as political division. Is it horrific, absolutely. But to be blunt, the Democrats and not doing enough to stop it, the Republicans are being too complicit in it, and the American public hasn't been pushed far enough yet to really do anything about it.

Sure people have come out in the media to "Strongly Condemn the Actions of the President". Problem is that is like saying "I don't agree with this fire as the forest burns behind you. The fire does not give a damn about the words.

I don't have the answer other than voting with your wallet and the ballot box. Money and politics are the only things that DC responds to.
 
michaelskis said:
See, I don't see what Trump is doing as political division. Is it horrific, absolutely. But to be blunt, the Democrats and not doing enough to stop it, the Republicans are being too complicit in it, and the American public hasn't been pushed far enough yet to really do anything about it.

Sure people have come out in the media to "Strongly Condemn the Actions of the President". Problem is that is like saying "I don't agree with this fire as the forest burns behind you. The fire does not give a damn about the words.

I don't have the answer other than voting with your wallet and the ballot box. Money and politics are the only things that DC responds to.
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Its political division. What everyone realizes is that if the executive branch is willing to use the full force of the government to do whatever they want, there's really not much that can be done to stop them. He simply ignores what he doesn't like. His party is not going to stop him and there is no other domestic entity to stand up to him.
 
It's just vibes and anecdotal, but I feel like the general shittiness is only going to start accelerating. I guess the question is how to live with at least some semblance of hope (maybe enthusiasm or positivity is too much for the moment) as the trendlines continue toward what feels like oblivion.

Meanwhile all we can do is just continue at our little jobs. Here, let me go ahead and process an SF-425 form to get over to the EDA by EOD today.
 
I think a lot about a trip to Russia I made probably 11-12 years ago now. Our guide started to open up a little bit by the end of touring our small group around. She had been in high school at the fall of the USSR, and talked about the hope at that time and how quickly it eroded to feeling a lot like she remembered from before. She said it felt almost the same as before in terms of suppression, except now they have more fast food.
 
Hawkeye66 said:
Don't forget the Swift-Kelce Engagement!
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The coverage of that I consider especially fascinating... my neighbor is a sociology professor and immediately seized that its coverage and the public reaction is highly indicative of a society experiencing essentially grasping for basic happiness/joy in an overall atmosphere of collective anxiety/darkness. He then said a bunch of other nerdy things that I honestly kinda zoned-out on while his daughter and my daughter were digging for bugs in the yard
 
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