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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

WSU MUP Student said:
I don't really have a problem with the government providing the debt forgiveness (in fact, I actually wish the limits were even bigger). The government (states and federal) are largely responsible for the situation by decades of disinvestment in the public higher education system causing tuition to rise so dramatically so I feel they have some obligation to help lower that existing burden when they can. I think the new cap of payments on income-based repayment plans maxing out at 5% of the borrowers' income is also going to be a bigger deal than the actual forgiveness for a lot of people.

If I had one nit to pick with the plan it would be that it wasn't accompanied with any sort of effort to lower the cost of higher education for future students. I have a fear that we're just going to be back in the same situation a few years down the line.

And frankly, I'm really tired of the, "I paid my way, so should everybody else" argument. To me, this is right up there with the, "We cannot do it that way because we've always done it this way" argument against changing things that is so prevalent in too much of government. If we have the opportunity to improve the situation for so many for such a relatively small cost, again, I feel there is an obligation to do so. Don't make everybody suffer just because I had to.
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I tend to agree with you. I don't really have a huge problem with the forgiveness. The cost versus value of 4-year degrees is crazy. The estimate for my freshman at a state school with typically lower cost of living is $26K per year. With scholarships, employee discount, and aid we're down to basically paying part of room and board (5-6K per year). Four years of college a student starting today with out aid or scholarships is coming out with $100,000 in debt. For most degrees that's going to take years to pay off. I think its also why most of the students are from affluent families. Both of Alabama's SEC schools pull heavily from out of state meaning those students are paying closer to $45K per year which makes almost no sense.
 
WSU MUP Student said:
And frankly, I'm really tired of the, "I paid my way, so should everybody else" argument. To me, this is right up there with the, "We cannot do it that way because we've always done it this way" argument against changing things that is so prevalent in too much of government. If we have the opportunity to improve the situation for so many for such a relatively small cost, again, I feel there is an obligation to do so. Don't make everybody suffer just because I had to.
Click to expand...
I saw this today:

1661438656851.png
 
Maister said:
The image of an unemployed liberal arts major is a popular cliche, but I wonder how much actual basis in reality it has. I don't think it's that black or white. Anecdotally, I personally have known lots of folks with liberal arts educations that were not only well-rounded but also gainfully employed. In fact, I have never personally encountered anyone matching the liberal arts cliche.
Click to expand...
My brother matches it to a tee, so maybe that is why I see this from that angle. I have actually worked with a quite a few people who ended up going to get a Master's degree in something valuable after an undergraduate degree that was pointless (ballet, really?).

I agree it may be cliche, but the point is valid. Getting a degree for no purpose is not a good utilization of money. If you intend to liberal art, I get it. If you intend to work at Starbucks, not so much.

I think we need to rethink what college is and what it isn't. Personally, I would like to see college be for professional degrees that need that structure and dedication to show these kids are able to meet the expectations of them outside in the real world. Let's move liberal arts degrees, or rounding it out degrees to community colleges, where people can be less locked into a lifetime of debt burdens and no ability to get a commensurate value job after said debt is accumulated.

I also support free community college, free or reduced trade schooling, and lots of other pathways for people who want different things, want to be rounded, but don't want to be broken financially to do it, and a slew of other solutions.
 
fringe said:
A "liberal" education has inestimable value in terms of personal development, but college education has been commoditized and put up for sale as a consumer product.
Click to expand...
We as a collective society have really seemed to push away any value given to culture and personal development, which is a shame. I do agree that we need to get people trained in jobs that are needed and to encourage a more diverse skillset (not everyone needs to go to college, etc) to best maximize one's return on their education investment. That said, the reduction of liberal arts programs, and the admonishment to those learning liberal arts really speaks to a cultural problem - I view it as a perspective that the growth of our youth should only prioritize having a job and working. This growing mantra that your education is only to build you as a worker bee (why teach algebra, kids should learn personal finance instead) is a bit depressing.

fringe said:
I hate to use a worn out word, but the education system is "rigged".
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The costs are outrageous, and some that are paying their loans on time but still going upside down is terrible. I know that there is also the narrative that people should go save money and end up working in a trade making good money misses the fact that many of those trade schools are for profit entities, and also can result in obscene amounts of debt. I know a few that went into auto repair, and one of the bigger trade schools was more per year than my education.
 
dw914er said:
...That said, the reduction of liberal arts programs, and the admonishment to those learning liberal arts really speaks to a cultural problem - I view it as a perspective that the growth of our youth should only prioritize having a job and working. This growing mantra that your education is only to build you as a worker bee (why teach algebra, kids should learn personal finance instead) is a bit depressing.
Click to expand...

This x1000.

I work in a marketing and communications department, We handle the marketing and communications for a pretty wide-ranging group of planning and economic/workforce development groups as well as some overflow PR work for the staff of the elected and his deputies. Over the years, I've occasionally helped in the hiring process for new marketing people. The way our generic job descriptions are written, we get a pretty diverse of backgrounds of people applying: about 50% come from some sort of marketing or PR background and have an education in associated liberal arts programs. Of the remaining 50%, half of them are usually coming from some other local government or economic development background and have an education in programs like planning or history or political science and the other half come from business or engineering programs and have an accounting or finance degree or some sort of STEM degree.

Once the applicants make it to us we ask for a writing sample.

It doesn't matter if the person is still in college, fresh out of college, or has been in the professional workforce for a few years but those with accounting degrees and engineering degrees write for absolute sh!t compared to those with something like an English or art degree.

Tangentially related:
This reminds me of something my (then future) father-in-law once told me when I was considering law school and trying to decide between Wayne State University and the prestigious University of Michigan. In his role as a partner at a Big 6 accounting firm and then as the CFO of large chemicals company he was often on the interview board for new hires and UofM grads were great if you wanted an in-depth conversation about the nuances of "the law" and all of the associated political and social ramifications of "the law" but ask them to review and summarize some piece of administrative law or write a contract and they'd have no idea what they were doing.
 
WSU MUP Student said:
It doesn't matter if the person is still in college, fresh out of college, or has been in the professional workforce for a few years but those with accounting degrees and engineering degrees write for absolute sh!t compared to those with something like an English or art degree.
Click to expand...

Relatedly, over the years, I've had the opportunity to interview college graduates for planning positions, and there is, in my experience, a chasm between the skill sets that a graduate from an actual collegiate planning program has versus those that have enrolled in a "land use management" concentration program that offered just two affiliated classed, the first being a land use planning course and the other being a GIS course. I think the difference is that additional courses from a collegiate planning program that includes urban history, planning/zoning law, and either an urban design or architecture classes elevates one's ability to actually think critically, creatively, and realistically about place.
 
Wannaplan? said:
Relatedly, over the years, I've had the opportunity to interview college graduates for planning positions, and there is, in my experience, a chasm between the skill sets that a graduate from an actual collegiate planning program has versus those that have enrolled in a "land use management" concentration program that offered just two affiliated classed, the first being a land use planning course and the other being a GIS course. I think the difference is that additional courses from a collegiate planning program that includes urban history, planning/zoning law, and either an urban design or architecture classes elevates one's ability to actually think critically, creatively, and realistically about place.
Click to expand...
I wish our (yours and my) MUP college had an undergrad degree in city planning.

I would have switch to that from History and had likely gotten the same type of jobs I've had over the last 20 years then go into the debt I did to get my MUP.

Due to the fact that my parents paid for all of undergrad for me....which was nice. :cool:
 
dw914er said:
That said, the reduction of liberal arts programs, and the admonishment to those learning liberal arts really speaks to a cultural problem - I view it as a perspective that the growth of our youth should only prioritize having a job and working.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. That's exactly what the owners of this country want, reliable workers who don't question anything but just continue to eke out a living by working for them. Give them too much of that "liberal" education and they'll start to do some critical thinking. Can't have that . . .
 
MD Planner said:
Absolutely. That's exactly what the owners of this country want, reliable workers who don't question anything but just continue to eke out a living by working for them. Give them too much of that "liberal" education and they'll start to do some critical thinking. Can't have that . . .
Click to expand...

Counterfactual to your assertion, there's always Hillsdale College, "...a private conservative liberal arts college..." One would have the opportunity to meet Pat Sajak!

en.wikipedia.org

Hillsdale College - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Wannaplan? said:
Counterfactual to your assertion, there's always Hillsdale College, "...a private conservative liberal arts college..." One would have the opportunity to meet Pat Sajak!
Click to expand...
Talk about your paradigm shifting life events! Wow, Pat Sajak...in person?!
 
Wannaplan? said:
Counterfactual to your assertion, there's always Hillsdale College, "...a private conservative liberal arts college..." One would have the opportunity to meet Pat Sajak!

en.wikipedia.org

Hillsdale College - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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Just don't go there for any sort of teaching degree.

“The teachers are trained in the dumbest parts of the dumbest colleges in the country,” said Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn. “We are going to try to demonstrate that you don't have to be an expert to educate a child because basically anybody can do it.”
 
It'll personally help us, as it will wipe out all of CCG's student loans. He's very slowly working towards an associate's degree in an IT field through a community college. Since the pandemic started, he's only been taking one class at a time, so while it's taking him a very long time to get through the program, we're at least able to pay out of pocket. But we're only able to do that because we're also prioritizing having a parent home with the kiddos.

Honestly, we probably didn't need it that much, although I'm very grateful for it. It's kind of like with the economic stimulus money. I feel like it probably could've been better targeted to meet more specific needs, but I'm grateful to be benefitting from it regardless.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
Just don't go there for any sort of teaching degree.

“The teachers are trained in the dumbest parts of the dumbest colleges in the country,” said Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn. “We are going to try to demonstrate that you don't have to be an expert to educate a child because basically anybody can do it.”
Click to expand...
My wife wrote a scolding letter a local gun toting pistol packing Congressman. Now we get really goofy Hillsdale brochures.
 
WSU MUP Student said:
This x1000.

I work in a marketing and communications department, We handle the marketing and communications for a pretty wide-ranging group of planning and economic/workforce development groups as well as some overflow PR work for the staff of the elected and his deputies. Over the years, I've occasionally helped in the hiring process for new marketing people. The way our generic job descriptions are written, we get a pretty diverse of backgrounds of people applying: about 50% come from some sort of marketing or PR background and have an education in associated liberal arts programs. Of the remaining 50%, half of them are usually coming from some other local government or economic development background and have an education in programs like planning or history or political science and the other half come from business or engineering programs and have an accounting or finance degree or some sort of STEM degree.

Once the applicants make it to us we ask for a writing sample.

It doesn't matter if the person is still in college, fresh out of college, or has been in the professional workforce for a few years but those with accounting degrees and engineering degrees write for absolute sh!t compared to those with something like an English or art degree.

Tangentially related:
This reminds me of something my (then future) father-in-law once told me when I was considering law school and trying to decide between Wayne State University and the prestigious University of Michigan. In his role as a partner at a Big 6 accounting firm and then as the CFO of large chemicals company he was often on the interview board for new hires and UofM grads were great if you wanted an in-depth conversation about the nuances of "the law" and all of the associated political and social ramifications of "the law" but ask them to review and summarize some piece of administrative law or write a contract and they'd have no idea what they were doing.
Click to expand...
One of my best English profs said, if you can't say it writing you can't know it.
 
My Dad paid for my Undergrad, I paid for my Grad School. Paid off about $13K in loans.

My kids have all been able to get Pell Grants, because my income is not counted (One of the few benefits of a divorce for the kids) and they got scholarships and went to the state school and my ex FIL had some money put aside for them mixed in with a little the ex and I did years ago so they are not graduating with any debt. They work in school to cover a lot of their expenses.

I have mixed feelings on it. I think the answer is to make school cheaper. Support it more at the state level and do something to reign in administrative bloat.
 
I paid for my undergrad and master through loans. I have a HUGE tract of loan. I was paying it off normally until I found out about the PSLF program. Then I went to the minimum payment I could make which made my tract of loan even bigger! That's why people pay more than when they started, but I've made my 10 years of payments and I'm getting off this train as soon as the Department of Ed figures out and agrees with Fedloan that I've done my time.

I think there should be a limit to the amount of blanket loan forgiveness. My amount is way to high. Maybe just set a limit at 20 or 40k. I don't know.

I also think we need to start subsidizing school again so people don't need these massive loans. You know, fund the front end instead of the back end. Although I'm still good with paying off the backend too.
 
DVD said:
I paid for my undergrad and master through loans. I have a HUGE tract of loan. I was paying it off normally until I found out about the PSLF program. Then I went to the minimum payment I could make which made my tract of loan even bigger! That's why people pay more than when they started, but I've made my 10 years of payments and I'm getting off this train as soon as the Department of Ed figures out and agrees with Fedloan that I've done my time.

I think there should be a limit to the amount of blanket loan forgiveness. My amount is way to high. Maybe just set a limit at 20 or 40k. I don't know.

I also think we need to start subsidizing school again so people don't need these massive loans. You know, fund the front end instead of the back end. Although I'm still good with paying off the backend too.
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My wife paid for two years. Then she got hired on by a state entity eligible for PSLF. I confirmed the type of loan she would need to qualify for the program twice. She kept paying the whole time and forgot to check yearly that it was qualifying. When I got her to check again after about year 7, they said her loan didn't qualify. She hit 10 years in 2020. After TPSLF started her loans mostly qualified except for a about 13 months for some reason. Then with the update to PSLF last summer everything magically was accepted and it showed the loan as paid in full. Even better around last October she received about 8 months of back payments.

I have no idea how any of it worked at any point. Her balance when the debt ended was almost exactly what she owed when she started, but the loan was not considered interest only. After a year and the new changes, I'm just now comfortable that they won't come back and say whoops, you still owe $22K plus the interest.
 
MD Planner said:
Could not agree more with this statement. It's just like the Affordable Care Act. In the end it didn't one GD thing to actually lower health care costs.

You know you have a problem when people who have been paying on their loans all along have a balance that is larger than when they started even years later.
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Oh hey that's me. And that $20K will do squat for me but I am also not a typical borrower having been older and a single parent. I have a BS in Political Science and half my undergrad was paid for through tuition reimbursement. I went to community college and state schools. Then I went to Rutgers, even with a decent scholarship and in-state tuition it was still a large chunk of money. Many first generation college students also have sizable debt as well as those with advanced degrees. Mine will be forgiven through public service, I will have 16 months left after the pause expires at the end of the year. I still owe more than I borrowed though thanks to the negative amortization feature as the income based repayment only resulted in interest payments and the interest was accruing and capitalizing at a faster rate than the loan being serviced which is by design. It's debt peonage.

Do I have any regrets? None. Because an advanced education has paid dividends for me and my family-my eldest was launched straight into the middle class and is just a few years away of surpassing my income. She went to community college and state school while living at home, the $20K forgiveness will retire 2/3 of her debt which she's never had issues paying and owns a home too.

I never expected wholesale forgiveness and even as a progressive haven't argued for it. I've long advocated for tweaks to the federal loan program and the tax code which would result in fairer terms, incentivize faster repayment by high earning borrowers, and level the field for lower income borrowers.

  • 1%-2% fixed interest rate (enough to cover the cost of servicing loans and administrative overhead-we did this with TARP)
  • Elimination of the negative amortization feature (DONE!)
  • Uncap the student loan interest deduction which is currently $2,500 per household
  • Create a dollar for dollar non-refundable tax credit equal to the amount of student loan principal repaid during the tax year (could phase out at $125K/$250K as other credits do)
  • Convert the PSLF program to forgive 10% of the principal balance for every 12 months of qualifying service worked instead of all or nothing
  • Ease the restrictions on student loans in bankruptcy filings
  • Loan forgiveness for borrowers receiving permanent Social Security disability
  • Loan forgiveness for borrowers reaching full retirement age collecting Social Security retirement
  • Continuing loan forgiveness for defrauded students
 
Scenario #1-using the above proposal for a high balance borrower, note the Principal Repayment Tax Credit is not refundable-it's equal to whatever the tax liability is at the end of the tax form. If you own nothing, you get nothing. This is for 10 years of repayment. Using a goal seek function, someone could borrow $56,828 at 1% and have it entirely paid off in 10 years using Scenario #1.

Interest
1%​
Beginning Balance120,000115,200110,352105,456100,51095,51590,47085,37580,22975,031
Annual Interest1,2001,1521,1041,0551,005955905854802750
IBR Payment Annual6,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,000
Interest Paid1,2001,1521,1041,0551,005955905854802750
Principal Paid4,8004,8484,8964,9454,9955,0455,0955,1465,1985,250
Interest Accrued----------
Ending Balance115,200110,352105,456100,51095,51590,47085,37580,22975,03169,781
Loan Interest Deduction1,2001,1521,1041,0551,005955905854802750
Principal Repayment Tax Credit4,8004,8484,8964,9454,9955,0455,0955,1465,1985,250

Scenario #2-And how the federal student loan system has functioned to date with a typical interest rate, at the end of 10 years the borrower owes more than they started with. Barring winning the lottery or getting a windfall, the debt is impossible to pay.

Interest
5.8%​
Beginning Balance120,000120,600121,595122,647123,761124,939126,185127,504128,899130,376
Annual Interest6,9606,9957,0527,1147,1787,2467,3197,3957,4767,562
IBR Payment Annual6,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,000
Interest Paid6,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,0006,000
Principal Paid----------
Interest Accrued6009951,0521,1141,1781,2461,3191,3951,4761,562
Ending Balance120,600121,595122,647123,761124,939126,185127,504128,899130,376131,937
Loan Interest Deduction2,5002,5002,5002,5002,5002,5002,5002,5002,5002,500
Principal Repayment Tax Credit----------
 
Try this on:
1. Universities are no longer allowed to operate the first 2 years of post high school education. PERIOD. They must spin off or partner with an existing 2 year public school affiliated with their program and all credits MUST be accepted for a subsequent 2 year BA/BS degree. The university will continue to offer graduate programs. Oh and the 1st 2 years are free with State and Federal support. Essentially this means any school that takes any state or federal money must create or partner with a 2 year associates program and share it with or split it from the university or college. Upon getting through the 2 year program, you are automatically accepted to the university.
2. All 2 year programs (vocational and academic) have free tuition.
3. Better yet, nationalize the 2 year schools so kids can stay in their hometowns and with their parents for another 2 years. Huge savings. Then they can do the dorm room thing for years 3 and 4 at their university, wherever that might be.
 
kjel said:
Mine will be forgiven through public service, I will have 16 months left after the pause expires at the end of the year.
Click to expand...
FYI, I believe the no payment due that Biden created counts as a qualified payment for PSLF. Go get your loan paid!
 
All this talking about student loans I decided I would check studentaid.gov to see if I can file for my PSLF since Fedloan says my payments are done. I log in and get this:
1661816582984.png

I'm not going to celebrate until I get the paper that says I'm good, but a mini celebration is good. Right?
 
DVD said:
FYI, I believe the no payment due that Biden created counts as a qualified payment for PSLF. Go get your loan paid!
Click to expand...
Yes they have! I still had a few years left, but the payment pause started by Cheetolini and continued by Biden has closed the gap quite a bit.
 
DVD said:
All this talking about student loans I decided I would check studentaid.gov to see if I can file for my PSLF since Fedloan says my payments are done. I log in and get this:
View attachment 58180
I'm not going to celebrate until I get the paper that says I'm good, but a mini celebration is good. Right?
Click to expand...
Congrats man! I know this is a weight lifted.
 
The One said:
Try this on:
1. Universities are no longer allowed to operate the first 2 years of post high school education. PERIOD. They must spin off or partner with an existing 2 year public school affiliated with their program and all credits MUST be accepted for a subsequent 2 year BA/BS degree. The university will continue to offer graduate programs. Oh and the 1st 2 years are free with State and Federal support. Essentially this means any school that takes any state or federal money must create or partner with a 2 year associates program and share it with or split it from the university or college. Upon getting through the 2 year program, you are automatically accepted to the university.
2. All 2 year programs (vocational and academic) have free tuition.
3. Better yet, nationalize the 2 year schools so kids can stay in their hometowns and with their parents for another 2 years. Huge savings. Then they can do the dorm room thing for years 3 and 4 at their university, wherever that might be.
Click to expand...
Bachelor degrees should be 3 years like they are in Europe. Basically the first college year is done in high school as it's mostly general requirements.
 
Saw a bunch of stories yesterday about Republicans looking to challenge the student loan forgiveness. I can't imagine that has any positive value for them. They stand to really piss off conservatives and independents who benefit from forgiveness. I don't think they're going to actually gain more support by going after the program.
 
Yes, but their supporters don't have degrees so fully support not spending money on education.

Sorry, that was mean. True, but mean.
 
Governor Abbott really, Really, REALLY does not want Hispanic immigrants in Texas!

"Texas spends more than $12 million to bus migrants to Washington, DC, and New York"
www.cnn.com

Texas spends more than $12 million to bus migrants to Washington, DC, and New York | CNN Politics

The state of Texas has spent more than $12 million busing migrants to Washington, DC, and New York who crossed into the state from Mexico, according to figures from the Texas Division of Emergency Management.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

And now they were just bused to Chicago.
www.chicagotribune.com

Migrants sent by Texas Gov. Abbott arrive in Chicago: ‘Our city is prepared. We’re a welcoming city,’ Mayor Lightfoot says

Seventy-five migrants who arrived in Texas were dropped off at Chicago’s Union Station on Wednesday night, officials said. Ryan Johnson, a representative for Mayor Lori Lightfoot, confirmed t…
www.chicagotribune.com www.chicagotribune.com
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
Saw a bunch of stories yesterday about Republicans looking to challenge the student loan forgiveness. I can't imagine that has any positive value for them. They stand to really piss off conservatives and independents who benefit from forgiveness. I don't think they're going to actually gain more support by going after the program.
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They get points with their base just by saying they're against it. Doesn't matter if they overturn it.
 
I enjoyed the quote yesterday I saw about Christians and debt forgiveness...


1662119055270.png
 
Doohickie said:
They get points with their base just by saying they're against it. Doesn't matter if they overturn it.
Click to expand...
I get that, but I know some pretty conservative people who are going to have some debt cleared and they aren't mad about it. My guess is they expected to pay it off eventually. If I wasn't pushing for my debt to be cancelled, but it came to fruition, I'd be a little upset at the person trying to reverse. There's enough time for me to think about what I don't have to pay every month for my student loan. That's a new car, part of a mortgage, a week or two of daycare, or something else.
 
Eh. They're okay with canceling their own student debt, but not for those other people.

And I don't mean that humorously or ironically. I know conservatives who actually view the world that way.
 
My brother and SIL have two kids in their mid-twenties.

They are in the top 2% of wage earners and live the life: Big house, rental property portfolio, two big boats, country clubs, timeshares, yadda yadda.

They paid for their kids' college 100%.

Their daughter got a degree in elem ed but doesn't want to teach; lives in a house paid for by my brother and works part-time as a lifeguard.

Son didn't graduate; lives at home and works at a daycare.

Brother is adamantly opposed to loan forgiveness.
 
Liz Truss is the new Prime Minister of England. She promised to be the conservatives conservative in her speech. Oh boy.
 
See pasted copy of my letter to local weekly re voting restriction.

Dear editor,

Republicans have learned that voter roll growth and high voter turnout always push their candidates lower down the rungs of power’s ladder. So they have shepherded in a new flock of voting restrictions in several states since the autumn of 2020.
To diminish voter rolls they discourage new registrations in a number of ways.
To counter turnout they make it harder for a voter to get to polls and harder for them to sign in.Some eliminate ballot drop boxes. Others obstruct access to polling stations.
Some prevent the disabled, for example, from using couriers to deliver their absentee ballots.Voting restrictions are nothing new. They have come and gone before. They drag a long, dark and shaggy bag of regrettable history, but they are not permanent.
They are as subject to change as the weather. The agents of that kind of change are the voters themselves, the more of them the better.
We can take heart in the fact that 67% of eligible voters cast votes in 2020,. That was the highest turnout since the year 1900, a year when only men, and only certain ones at that, could vote.Jim BairdComer
 
It was never about election integrity, only a way to make it harder for some people to vote.

www.al.com

Alabama GOP chair refused to show license to vote. That became a problem for poll workers.

Voter ID law disenfranchised GOP chair's own family.
www.al.com www.al.com

  • GOP chair uses state employee ID, although there is no record of having ever been employed by the state.
  • Family members don't have ID due to religious objection to being photographed.
  • Pressures local voting place supervisor into signing affidavit that he knows they are who they are and registered to vote, even though the worker doesn't really know them.
  • When the voting place supervisor asks for clarification after the election and requests the GOP chair and his family to follow the same law, he is removed as a poll worker.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
It was never about election integrity, only a way to make it harder for some people to vote.

www.al.com

Alabama GOP chair refused to show license to vote. That became a problem for poll workers.

Voter ID law disenfranchised GOP chair's own family.
www.al.com www.al.com

  • GOP chair uses state employee ID, although there is no record of having ever been employed by the state.
  • Family members don't have ID due to religious objection to being photographed.
  • Pressures local voting place supervisor into signing affidavit that he knows they are who they are and registered to vote, even though the worker doesn't really know them.
  • When the voting place supervisor asks for clarification after the election and requests the GOP chair and his family to follow the same law, he is removed as a poll worker.
Click to expand...
Hypocrisy is their bread and butter.

These are the kind of stories that make me blindingly livid.
 
mendelman said:
blindingly livid
Click to expand...

I watched MSNBC yesterday and on Morning Joe, they interviewed Adam Kinzinger.

One of the things he said is that the witnesses that have already come before the January 6 committee are heroes because they are important whistleblowers that are helping America get through the Big Lie. He continued on by saying that he knows members of Congress who have told him, in private, that they do not believe the Big Lie, and that they do not like Trump at all. Adam Kinzinger implied they are cowards because they carry that with them and are not setting the record straight with the American people.

Did you know that Adam Kinzinger is not seeking reelection this year?

So, it occurs to me – Couldn’t Adam Kinzinger follow his own train of thought and be that whistleblower and also be a hero by calling out publicly who those members of Congress are that won’t expose the Big Lie? Effing hypocrite.
 
Wannaplan? said:
I watched MSNBC yesterday and on Morning Joe, they interviewed Adam Kinzinger.

One of the things he said is that the witnesses that have already come before the January 6 committee are heroes because they are important whistleblowers that are helping America get through the Big Lie. He continued on by saying that he knows members of Congress who have told him, in private, that they do not believe the Big Lie, and that they do not like Trump at all. Adam Kinzinger implied they are cowards because they carry that with them and are not setting the record straight with the American people.

Did you know that Adam Kinzinger is not seeking reelection this year?

So, it occurs to me – Couldn’t Adam Kinzinger follow his own train of thought and be that whistleblower and also be a hero by calling out publicly who those members of Congress are that won’t expose the Big Lie? Effing hypocrite.
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You're definitely not wrong.
 
Wannaplan? said:
I watched MSNBC yesterday and on Morning Joe, they interviewed Adam Kinzinger.

One of the things he said is that the witnesses that have already come before the January 6 committee are heroes because they are important whistleblowers that are helping America get through the Big Lie. He continued on by saying that he knows members of Congress who have told him, in private, that they do not believe the Big Lie, and that they do not like Trump at all. Adam Kinzinger implied they are cowards because they carry that with them and are not setting the record straight with the American people.

Did you know that Adam Kinzinger is not seeking reelection this year?

So, it occurs to me – Couldn’t Adam Kinzinger follow his own train of thought and be that whistleblower and also be a hero by calling out publicly who those members of Congress are that won’t expose the Big Lie? Effing hypocrite.
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I give him full credit for his efforts.
 
Many thoughts...

I don't have an issue with the student debt forgiveness program, but I don't think it goes far enough and should also include incentives for trade school debt as well. I also don't think it fixes the problem that is the university.

The FBI raid on Trumps place was a good start, but I want to see them move forward with prosecution already. Oh, and please disqualify him from running for office.

I think the response to the transportation of illegal immigrants from TX and some other places to the North East and Chicago is kind of comical. It is almost as if they are saying it is OK if you come to the US, as long as you are not coming to my City. One said they were upset that they didn't get notice and my first thought was that border cities don't get notice either.
 
Florida paid $12m for the immigrant stunt. How anyone looks at that as a conservative and thinks, "Yea, DeSantis is really showing them how it's done!" is a hypocrite. That is a massive waste of taxpayer money, if your black heart doesn't see the other side of how wrong that is to do to human beings.
 
Hink said:
Florida paid $12m for the immigrant stunt. How anyone looks at that as a conservative and thinks, "Yea, DeSantis is really showing them how it's done!" is a hypocrite. That is a massive waste of taxpayer money, if your black heart doesn't see the other side of how wrong that is to do to human beings.
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In case anyone didn't see the news NYT LINK.

This was most ridiculous and I am sure those plane tickets were expensive. This is the culmination of Congress' repeat and abject failures of providing substantial and meaningful immigration reform, both parties are responsible.
 
kjel said:
This is the culmination of Congress' repeat and abject failures of providing substantial and meaningful immigration reform, both parties are responsible.
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This right here! Both parties have kicked this can down the road for so long it's sickening. To his credit, George W. Bush actually tried to do something about it, even going on TV to address the nation. But of course no action from Congress.

If you actually solve problems then you don't have something for people to fear or someone for them to blame and thus it's harder to win an election. Worthless f&*$@s all of them!
 
kjel said:
In case anyone didn't see the news NYT LINK.

This was most ridiculous and I am sure those plane tickets were expensive. This is the culmination of Congress' repeat and abject failures of providing substantial and meaningful immigration reform, both parties are responsible.
Click to expand...
Greg Abbott tells Death Satan to hold his beer https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/busloads-migrants-dropped-off-vp-harris-residence-89952888 (2 busloads of migrants dropped off near VP Harris' residence)

Jesus.
 
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