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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

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The Terminator said:
Charlie and everything he represented were/are repulsive, but as a free speech absolutist, I condemn fullstop, his cold blooded killing. IDK why saying that has to be controversial, the online left is doing nothing but gloating right now. I would be on that bandwagon if this happened in 2016 when I was in my 20s, now I am wiser.
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I completely agree with you that any political violence is wrong and the response from a fringe minority celebrating it is also wrong.

However, I am genuinely curious about something. Until the other night, I knew just about nothing when it comes to Kirk. You mentioned 'everything he represented were/are repulsive'. I have watched a couple of clips, but could you expand on that comment. I agree that his support of Trump is repulsive, but can you go into what else you disagree with him on? Was there things that he said that were factually incorrect?

I am asking to better understand the response of all this. It is one thing for a prominent elected official to get assassinated. But a podcaster who spoke at colleges campuses? I just don't get it.
 
I guess I don't understand why now political violence is a problem. It didn't seem to be when the Minnesota legislators were killed or Shapiro was firebombed, or when the Capitol was bum rushed.

Hmmmmm
 
michaelskis said:
I completely agree with you that any political violence is wrong and the response from a fringe minority celebrating it is also wrong.

However, I am genuinely curious about something. Until the other night, I knew just about nothing when it comes to Kirk. You mentioned 'everything he represented were/are repulsive'. I have watched a couple of clips, but could you expand on that comment. I agree that his support of Trump is repulsive, but can you go into what else you disagree with him on? Was there things that he said that were factually incorrect?

I am asking to better understand the response of all this. It is one thing for a prominent elected official to get assassinated. But a podcaster who spoke at colleges campuses? I just don't get it.
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I'm another free speech absolutist. Unless you're in the genre of "fightin' words" and threats (both well-defined under constitutional law these days), you get to say whatever stupid crap you want. I will note that it does not absolve you from private consequences for your words (like people getting fired for saying racist crap, etc.).

@michaelskis - you may not be as familiar because you haven't worked around college towns since Kirk came on the scene, plus I suspect you aren't a big fan of influencer culture (neither am I). Kirk's organization was right-wing extremist influence on college campuses, based on young men being uniquely susceptible/impressionable. I've lived in a college town for 25 years and have had the unpleasant experience of seeing Kirk up close and personal. He was nothing more than a provocateur, which is why I'm bothered by people that are all like "oh he's so engaged in the way we should be debating blah blah blah." His "debates" are nothing more than provocations and instigations, and his "organization" nothing but a graft operation.

But he should not be dead for this. He should be irrelevant.

The fascinating/disgusting piece of this is that he has commanded the airwaves and every bit of political attention over the last two days. The school shooting has received no attention beyond the incredibly dystopian split screen coverage of a school shooting and political hit that, in my opinion, perfectly incapsulates the death of the American Experiment. Absolutely nothing out of the Trump administration, not a single word that I've found. Even Democrats have been stone cold silent, focusing instead on Kirk. Children are expendable. Pro-life only until birth. After that, you're collateral damage on the political minefields.

JD Vance blew off a 9/11 ceremony in NYC to go do some political theater and inexplicably use government resources for the most unnecessary use of Air Force 2 as a hearse. There is no better manifestation of "Never forget... I guess we forgot" than Vance's actions.

And Trump has once again failed to rise to the occasion to deescalate and actually be a stateman/leader. In fact, he has only made it worse. Particularly the contrast with Hortman in Minnesota (who was an actual public servant rather than a provocateur). I singularly blame him for escalating political violence.
 
Hawkeye66 said:
I guess I don't understand why now political violence is a problem. It didn't seem to be when the Minnesota legislators were killed or Shapiro was firebombed, or when the Capitol was bum rushed.

Hmmmmm
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Or Pelosi's husband was attacked in his own home
 
Planit said:
From page 351 of this thread. This might help explain Kirk too.
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In the past he's stated that women's suffrage and the Civil Rights Act were mistakes.

He used a lot of inflammatory rhetoric but came at it from a more debate style of approach instead of screaming. He's pushed a bunch of different conspiracies over time (Covid, voter fraud, etc). He was getting further and further into Christian Nationalism/Dominionism.

I feel for his family and hate that he was killed.
 
Like what he stood for. Don't like what he stood for. But Charlie Kirk's influence on Gen Z cannot be underestimated. I'm around a lot of Gen Z people due to the age of my daughters and I see it all over the place.
 
Planit said:
^^^What happened to Chicago getting theirs?
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TN's governor will welcome them with open arms where Illinois was planning to challenge their use. I've heard the Guard spent a good bit of time mulching beds and picking up trash in DC. If it's still the same as the last time I was there, Memphis could stand some litter pick up and beautification.
 
Over the weekend I dug into what Charlie Kirk was all about so I could better understand what is going on. I found myself both agreeing and disagreeing with elements of what he said. What really surprised me was his faith first foundations, but he also was a very passionate supporter of Trump. I don't see Trump as someone who give a damn about faith and a lot of Trumps actions are counter to a lot of the faith believes of Kirk. But Kirk didn't waver on that foundation and was even calling for the release of all the Epstein Files.

The part that really surprised me was how we communicated his message through open debate, especially on college campuses where he said college was a scam. He didn't back down, and despite not going to college, it was very apparent that he did his homework on many of this historical topics. The majority of what I saw was he asked questions of those who were passionately opposed to his beliefs on a subject, and the students either didn't have a response or their response didn't make any sense.

I asked my oldest about him. My oldest is very, very left leaning. He said that he didn't like anything that Kirk had to say, and was quick to note that it was wrong for him to be killed. But when I asked him what it was that Kirk had to say that he didn't agree with, he didn't have anything to say other than his friends didn't like him. So I asked him to ask his friends what it was about him that they didn't agree with, and it sounds like they too had never heard anything that he had to say.

A local representative for the State legislature made a comment yesterday that has me wondering. He said that much like the assassination of MLK was a turning point in the Civil Rights movement, the assassination of Charlie Kirk will be a turning point for the conservative movement in the US. While I was quick to dismiss the comment, I was thinking about it this morning and the amount of coverage it has had indicates that maybe he is right. CNN is reporting that his social media pages have increased by millions. I was also told that the regional representative for the Turning Point USA group indicated that they had more interest in the last few days than they have had the past several years and they anticipate growing 1000 new chapters this week.

The pastor at my church talked about it briefly in a larger bipartisan context of evil. He noted that Kirk was a martyr and believes that he was killed because of his outwardly Christian stance than his politics. The Southern Baptist Convention is releasing a joint statement with several other Christian denominations condemning the martialism of Kirk and calling for this to become a catalyst for a return to religion in our society. But this was in context of multiple events including the stabbing in Charlotte, multiple shootings across the country including the one in the Church in MN, and the political violence that appears to occur from both the left and the right.

Overall, I say all that to say that I learned two significant lessons about Kirk. The first is that he had a significant impact on the youth in American before death, and now he is having a significant impact on older adults after death. The second is how many people are making opinions or judgements about Kirk without ever watching any of his videos or digging into what he believed. There are a couple of Cyburbians that I know are the exception and have posted thoughtful and educated responses regarding their thoughts on his believes, but I think they are the minority. I don't just think it is people who are in opposition to him either. Too many people on both sides are passing judgement only based on what other people say. So with that I say watch his videos and read his posts. See what he says he stands for and don't just accept the responses from either side, but do your own fact checking to see if either of them are correct. Similarly, know why you believe what you believe.

Finally, I want to comment on people being fired for celebrating his death on social media. My initial thought on this was good, they should be fired, and in some cases depending on what they did for a living, I still support that position. However I also see people calling for the death penalty for the shooter and I question if that kind of public proclamation on social media is appropriate either.
 
I didn't like the things he said.

Gun deaths are worth it. - sure, until it's your family and friends that pay the price.
Comparing abortion to the Holocaust.
Women should have children, not careers.
Empathy is bad.
Black people were better off under Jim Crow laws.
The list of stupid things he said can go on and on, but if you want to see his "family values" I guess that's fine. I just think he was another talking head that said outrageous crap to get attention and make money.
 
Wind power is worthless if the wind doesn't blow.
Solar power is useless when it gets dark.
www.rawstory.com

'Dumbest people in history': Trump official astonishes critics with eye-popping claim

Critics over the weekend heaped scorn on the US Department of Energy after it made demonstrably false claims about renewable energy.In a post on X late last week, the Department of Energy (DOE) argued that "wind and solar energy infrastructure is essentially worthless when it is dark outside...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
 
DVD said:
I didn't like the things he said.

Gun deaths are worth it. - sure, until it's your family and friends that pay the price.
Comparing abortion to the Holocaust.
Women should have children, not careers.
Empathy is bad.
Black people were better off under Jim Crow laws.
The list of stupid things he said can go on and on, but if you want to see his "family values" I guess that's fine. I just think he was another talking head that said outrageous crap to get attention and make money.
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He laughed all the way to the bank.

I do not condone political violence. Freedom of speech means we all have to listen to 💩 we don’t agree with.

The right was largely silent when the Hortmans were killed in their own home in Minnesota. Another state politician was attacked by the same perpetrator the same day. The Orange Menace did the needful and posted that it was dreadful and then went on about his day. Also victims of political violence: MI Gov. Whitmer was nearly kidnapped, PA Gov. Shapiro and his family were at the governors residence when someone threw a Molotov cocktail through a window lighting the house on fire, Nancy Pelosi’s husband was victim of an attack in his home:

The many NFL teams fell all over themselves this week with Charlie Kirk earning recognition and a moment of silence. Definitely political, but rewinding back to Colin Kaepernick and his refusing to stand for the anthem-the NFL decided that was too political.

It’s the hypocrisy.
 
I feel like we're all standing around listening to what the guy on a soap box is saying. OMG, this random guy said the craziest thing! We must all discuss it! Or we could just walk on by and go about our day ignoring the crazy guy saying stupid things.
 
Honestly, Kirk was closer to Brother Jed than a real political figure. Saying outrageous things to get noticed and like Jed, someone always took the bait.
 
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