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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

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halloween lol GIF by Disneyland Paris
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
From an article on a new ATF gun crime report

6 major takeaways from the ATF's first report in 20 years on U.S. gun crime

"A huge way those legally purchased firearms get into the hands of criminals is through theft, the ATF said. In five years, there were more than 1 million firearms stolen from private citizens and reported to authorities."

"Roughly 4.6 million children live in a home with loaded and unlocked firearms , studies have shown.

And over 80% of mass shooters at K-12 schools stole guns from family members, according to research funded by the National Institute of Justice (a program of the U.S. Justice Department) that examined mass shootings that took place from 1966 to 2019."

From the actual report:
"For the entire study period, the median TTC (time from purchase to crime) was 1,293 days or slightly more than three years, meaning that half of the traced crime guns were purchased within this time period.... As shown in Figure IFT-02, about 25% of traced crime guns were recovered within one year of their purchase."

The report basically makes it sound like we buy lots of guns and don't secure them. Then for the guns traced in this report over 25% were used within 1 year and 50% were used to commit a crime within 3 years. Maybe if we didn't produce as many guns the number of gun deaths would drop over time.
Click to expand...

& kids are allowed to carry evidently:

www.huffpost.com

Missouri Lawmakers Vote Against Banning Children From Carrying Guns In Public

A Democrat who sponsored the proposal said police asked for the change, adding that “we have 14-year-olds ... carrying AR-15s."
www.huffpost.com www.huffpost.com
 
Hink said:
Or make it take over a year to get the gun.

I also think we need to hold gun owners liable for anything that happens with a gun they bought. Kid gets ahold of it, you are liable for everything. Someone steals it and does a crime, you are liable.

We need to put the punishment on those who won't do the right thing, so that the next generation can stop seeing guns as a solution to our problems, instead of the creation of many of the problems in our society.
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That's exactly where I was headed with mandatory insurance, minimum standards for gun storage, and owner responsibility for outcomes when the gun was secured by the person through carelessness. The 80% of guns were unsecured and loaded with children in the home really sums it up.
 
Why we can't have nice things or why we'll always be in running for last place.

Alabama has some of the lowest property tax rates in the country. The state requires at least 10 mils be collected by the county for schools. In many counties that is how much is collected. In the past few years, many of the systems have tried to increase the property tax dedicated for schools with mixed results. Cities with good school systems have been relatively successful, as have those that have broken away from county systems to create their own school systems.

This year Tuscaloosa County, home to the University of Alabama, is trying to increase their tax rate from 9.5 mills to 17.5 mils to generate about $15M. The city of Tuscaloosa has previously pulled away from the county and has a significantly higher rate. Another city is in the process of trying to pull away and appears to be trying to sabotage or at least hold the vote hostage. It amazes me that residents of a system with 18,000 students and hasn't had a local funding increase since 1917 can look at it and say its not necessary or worthwhile.

Interestingly, the group fighting the tax increase is a "Farmers Federation." I also think whoever created a logo with a gun sight on the county is an @$$ or an idiot.


tuscaloosa school tax.JPG
 
What is wrong with this math

today is the 45 day of the year so 45 X 24 hours in a day =
1,080 hrs divided by 67 mass shootings so far this year =
1 mass shooting every 16 hours ?

www.gunviolencearchive.org

Gun Violence Archive

www.gunviolencearchive.org www.gunviolencearchive.org
 
JNA said:
What is wrong with this math

today is the 45 day of the year so 45 X 24 hours in a day =
1,080 hrs divided by 67 mass shootings so far this year =
1 mass shooting every 16 hours ?

www.gunviolencearchive.org

Gun Violence Archive

www.gunviolencearchive.org www.gunviolencearchive.org
Click to expand...

More mass shootings than days so far this year
www.cnn.com

This is how many mass shootings there have been so far this year | CNN

There have been more shootings than days so far this year and more shootings so far this year than at this point in any year since at least 2013.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
 
I think everyone is universally upset with the number of shootings. The question is will our states and federal government actually be willing to pass regulations that will actually make a difference in preventing these situations. For those who are unaware of the regulations in Michigan when it comes to handgun purchases (MCL 28.422)
  • Unless you have a concealed carry permit, one needs to have a background check done and get a permit from the Sheriffs department before buying.
  • The seller will also do a background check before selling.
  • Handguns must be registered with local sheriff's department after purchase.

In reading what the shooter's father said, it sounds like there was significant emotional and mental health concerns.
www.woodtv.com

Reports: MSU gunman’s father said son turned ‘evil and mean’ after mother’s death

The father of the gunman who shot and killed three students at Michigan State University and injured five others said that his son started getting “evil and mean” after the death of his mother in 2…
www.woodtv.com www.woodtv.com
 
Wannaplan? said:
The day after a mass shooting Michigan, someone makes a post... to provide awareness about regulations when making a hand gun purchase? Too soon, man, too soon.
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I waited until all the politicians started calling for increased gun regulations.
www.woodtv.com

State lawmakers send messages of support after deadly MSU shooting

Following the deadly shooting at Michigan State University, lawmakers sent messages of sympathy and called for action.
www.woodtv.com www.woodtv.com
Let me know when you contact their offices to say "Too Soon".

The point of my post was that we continue to do nothing about mental health services in this county and then wonder why these things continue to happen.
 
If MI didn't do anything after Oxford High School...nothing will be done in MI.

Look at IL right now. They're trying, but even the purely representative democracy process is not frictionless.

I predict within the next 1-2 years the SCOTUS will enshrine (with case law) gun ownership as any absolute right.

But...thankfully SCOTUS is not bound by precedent anymore (Dobbs), so we just turn all our national politics into a fight over SCOTUS appointments. Full stop.
 
mendelman said:
If MI didn't do anything after Oxford High School...nothing will be done in MI.

Look at IL right now. They're trying, but even the purely representative democracy process is not frictionless.

I predict within the next 1-2 years the SCOTUS will enshrine (with case law) gun ownership as any absolute right.

But...thankfully SCOTUS is not bound by precedent anymore (Dobbs), so we just turn all our national politics into a fight over SCOTUS appointments. Full stop.
Click to expand...

And it keeps getting worse... I just learned that a kid had a loaded pistol on campus at my the middle school that my oldest attends. The school was able to get it before any threats or anything could happen.

Once again...
michaelskis said:
You seem frustrated that I ask questions. But I ask questions because I know I don't have all the answers. I apologize if you feel I have attacked your answers in anyway. I asked further questions to better understand the deeper reasoning behind your responses.

For regulations, my suggestions, which are to start a conversation but I realize they don't fix all the problems, are as follows:
  • Increased funding and support for mental health issues, especially in schools.
  • Consistent background check system on a national level for the purchase of all firearms. This background check may be simplified if a person has a canceled carry permit that already requires a more in-depth background check.
  • A "go/no-go red flag mental notice on these background checks that puts a hold on the purchase of any firearm if there is a history of concern of mental health and may only be included or removed by a license medical professional... not law enforcement.
  • An instant connection to law enforcement data bases to include a legal go/no-go red flag legal notice for things such as restraining orders, domestic violence calls, or other pattern of documented violence.
  • A requirement that all pistols include a case and a lock as part of sale. Some states already require this, but this should be a national standard.
  • A requirement that gun dealers (including gun shows) go through an detailed explanation on how to properly store and secure firearms for the sale of any weapon (may be waived for concealed carry holders)
However, the most important is going back to culture. We live in a culture of anger and violence and we are progressively removing and restricting avenues to address these issues. Quality youth programs are no longer getting funded, more and more households are single parent households, and there is a progressive decline of father figures in the lives of kids. This goes beyond just the kids having a male figure in the house, but one that is actually involved with their kids lives in a positive way.

I think in times like this, some people are quick to say that Americans have a gun fetish. Yea, we one more guns per capita than any other country on the planet. But the deeper question is why do we have a violence issue? Why do these children feel that they need to post crap like this on social media? Why do kids feel like they need to take action to inflict harm on someone at school in the first place? Why do adults feel this way as well. It is easy to blame the tool, but the more important question that we should be asking ourselves is why do they need this tool in the first place?
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I can agree that mental health is always part of the issue, but I have two problems with it.
1. It's a red herring from politicians who don't want us looking at gun regulation or don't want to do anything meaningful about gun regulation.
2. By the time you realize there is a mental health issue the gun has already gone off.

We've talked about reasonable regulation ranging from insurance and registration to banning guns. It's all a good start if we can get a politician to do something, anything.

We can talk mental health, but until we reform the health care system that people can get the help they need then nothing is getting done there either. All the politicians throwing out the mental health herring are doing nothing to reform health care. So it's just another dead end for me even if it is a potential solution.
 
DVD said:
I can agree that mental health is always part of the issue, but I have two problems with it.
1. It's a red herring from politicians who don't want us looking at gun regulation or don't want to do anything meaningful about gun regulation.
2. By the time you realize there is a mental health issue the gun has already gone off.

We've talked about reasonable regulation ranging from insurance and registration to banning guns. It's all a good start if we can get a politician to do something, anything.

We can talk mental health, but until we reform the health care system that people can get the help they need then nothing is getting done there either. All the politicians throwing out the mental health herring are doing nothing to reform health care. So it's just another dead end for me even if it is a potential solution.
Click to expand...

I agree but I am curious what gun regulations that are not in place would have helped prevent what happened at MSU? I ask because it sounds like the guy was on probation, so I wonder if he had the gun before or after, and if it was a gun related crime, why did he get his gun back?

I also hope that his father would have requested that he see a professional after the death of his mother, which might have caused a red-flag alert that would have prevented him from just getting a gun without a qualified medical professional signing off on it. I also wonder if there was other stuff going on in his life because it sounds like he was in his early 40's and lived at home with his parents still.

There are a ton of questions here and I think that we need to start looking for ways to move the needle in terms of providing help for people who need it.
 
Wannaplan? said:
That's messed up.
Click to expand...
I am sorry you feel that way. I just believe that we need to be having real conversations about realistic and practical things that will actually made a difference rather than just reciting party lines.

Just saying "Ban Assault Weapons" or "Background Checks" is what is messed up.
 
DVD said:
1. It's a red herring from politicians who don't want us looking at gun regulation or don't want to do anything meaningful about gun regulation.
Click to expand...
I think that's an incorrect take. Mental health is absolutely not a red herring in my opinion. Yeah, guns seem to be the primary weapon of choice but holy shit, there are a lot of angry and unbalanced people in this country. Doing something about THAT would go a long way as well. There's no silver bullet, there are just ingredients in the recipe to hopefully get us to a place where so many people don't get to the point where they want to harm a lot of people at a school, shopping center, concert, etc.
 
There is no such thing as "too soon" when calling for more firearms regulations or more mental healthcare resources. There is only "too late".

Given the rate of mass shootings in this country, if we have to have some sort of waiting period after a mass shooting before we can begin calling on politicians to enact some sort of meaningful change, we'll never be able to have those discussions.
 
I am of the opinion the Second Amendment should be repealed and the US should heavily regulate the use and keeping of privately owned firearms, as pretty much all other responsible democracies do. I am reasonably confident that even in the absence of a militia, we'll still be able to repel any invader that might care to attack.

We have resources that few other countries have at their disposal to improve their mental health care system. We should invest heavily in our mental health system. While we're at it we should also adopt an efficient single-payer health care system. Similar to firearms, we have numerous examples of other democracies to model from that have already successfully accomplished this.
 
Maister said:
I am of the opinion the Second Amendment should be repealed and the US should heavily regulate the use and keeping of privately owned firearms, as pretty much all other responsible democracies do. I am reasonably confident that even in the absence of a militia, we'll still be able to repel any invader that might care to attack.
Click to expand...
I am not going to debate the content of your opinion. What I will ask is do you truly believe that this will occur anytime soon?

If not, what suggestions do you have that have the potential for bipartisan support?
 
michaelskis said:
I am not going to debate the content of your opinion. What I will ask is do you truly believe that this will occur anytime soon?

If not, what suggestions do you have that have the potential for bipartisan support?
Click to expand...
It's certainly not impossible. Ultimately a matter of educating the public. We need to understand the benefits vs the harms. What do citizens gain by having large quantities of readily available firearms? Improved personal safety? We have more privately owned firearms than any country on earth. The briefest glance at the number of gun crimes committed in this country should convince folks that's NOT the case.
 
michaelskis said:
I am not going to debate the content of your opinion. What I will ask is do you truly believe that this will occur anytime soon?

If not, what suggestions do you have that have the potential for bipartisan support?
Click to expand...

Hate to be a realist - but right now with states who will not even say that children are not allowed to carry, we're screwed...or should I say shot down.
 
There was a time in this country when everyone realized that seatbelts would save lives, but just a very few cars had them. We decided all cars should have them, and now they do. Usage is at an all-time high and lives are indeed being saved.

So it is disingenuous to say we can only do what can we can get bipartisan support for now, and that anything else is too hard. Stop looking short term and start looking over the horizon.

Unlimited money needs to be banned from politics so that the NRA and other weapons lobbies can't own Congress/State Legislatures anymore. A whole host of other benefits would also devolve from this action.
Single-payer national healthcare. Reopen mental health treatment centers across a broad spectrum (in-patient and out-patient) on a new model of care. These should not be warehouses for those difficult to provide care but rather environments where the urge to commit atrocious crimes is dramatically reduced/ended.
Require the same licensing/registration/insurance for weapons as we currently do for automobiles.
Increase taxes on everything that supports the gun industry by orders of magnitude from ammunition to scopes to lubricating oil. All of it - tax the hell out of it.
As @Maister argues, end 2A as written and replace it with something that protects the rights of non gun-owners equally with those that do own.
 
Gedunker said:
So it is disingenuous to say we can only do what can we can get bipartisan support for now, and that anything else is too hard. Stop looking short term and start looking over the horizon.
Click to expand...

I do think it is a problem, particularly for the Democratic Party, that with such a broad coalition of support the party platform is no longer clear and concise. They are still trying to be all things to all coalition members and in my opinion that leads to a diluted and unfocused message. I think the trick is finding the policy platform that fits on a single page, but still resonates with enough people to constitute a strong majority. I personally think that a platform of stricter gun control laws could absolutely capture a strong majority and it really should be up there, #1 or #2, on a very concise list of party priorities. It sometimes puzzles me that there so much energy and support within the Democratic party to push forward with climate change policies but so much acceptance of the intractability on gun regulations.
 
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I don't think the 2nd Amendment will ever be changed.

Citing mental health issues as the primary issue that people kill people with guns is a red herring. Do we need mental health care reform in the US? Absolutely. It should be free and accessible to everyone and as Gedunker points out, there needs to be an inpatient component as well.

This country's politicians decided long ago that it was perfectly acceptable that our children and young adults are sacrificial lambs in order to preserve 2A rights. At this juncture the only things that I think are feasible are universal background checks with no loopholes, a purchase permit for each firearm with a 30 day waiting period which should include some type of knowledge and proficiency test, and liability insurance. I think ammunition should be subject to high level sales/use tax as well.
 
michaelskis said:
I am not going to debate the content of your opinion. What I will ask is do you truly believe that this will occur anytime soon?

If not, what suggestions do you have that have the potential for bipartisan support?
Click to expand...
I think Maister's proposal has about as much likelihood of being addressed as comprehensive mental health that could affect an unemployed, middle-aged, single-male. We need to address mental health, but we're not. We don't provide shelter or food for that segment of the population. Mental health only comes up as something we should look at when the other side says we should address firearms. Do you think there is any true support for comprehensive mental health and the ability to tie gun ownership to it?

The shooter at MSU apparently had police over to the house multiple times. His father thought he might have actual demons, but didn't want to cause trouble. Others though he was odd and there were signs of depression and mental issues, but it doesn't sound like he was getting any treatment. No one thought to try to take away his gun or felt they could. The only time his gun was taken away was when he was caught without a conceal permit. After serving probation there were no restrictions on ownership. But even then, conceal permits aren't even a thing in many southern states now.
 
michaelskis said:
What I will ask is do you truly believe that this will occur anytime soon?
Click to expand...
I highly doubt it will happen soon, but nonetheless it's critical we pursue this goal and ultimately achieve it at some point in the future. The key is to think/aim long term. Failure to do so means we allow things to get progressively worse over time. At some point in the future, Americans will suffer enough loss that they'll begin to understand what's at stake.
 
Maister said:
I highly doubt it will happen soon, but nonetheless it's critical we pursue this goal and ultimately achieve it at some point in the future. The key is to think/aim long term. Failure to do so means we allow things to get progressively worse over time. At some point in the future, Americans will suffer enough loss that they'll begin to understand what's at stake.
Click to expand...

What about all the deaths of people between now and then? If we put other measures in place, some of those lives could be saved. What do you tell their families at the funeral? “Sorry, I was too focused on repealing the 2nd amendment to push for increased background checks, mental health funding, or regulations regarding properly storage of weapons.”? How do you think those family members would take that as they stand over a the coffin of their loved one?
 
michaelskis said:
What about all the deaths of people between now and then? If we put other measures in place, some of those lives could be saved. What do you tell their families at the funeral? “Sorry, I was too focused on repealing the 2nd amendment to push for increased background checks, mental health funding, or regulations regarding properly storage of weapons.”? How do you think those family members would take that as they stand over a the coffin of their loved one?
Click to expand...
That very thing ought to increase the urgency, no? It took 50 years (and way, way, way more deaths) for seatbelts to become the norm.

++
I think Trump stole classified documents because he didn't get a participation trophy when he left the White House.
 
And as I anticipate the temperature in the room once again rising, I shall bid adieu to the Political Discussion (aka the Gun Control Debate) Thread.
 
michaelskis said:
What about all the deaths of people between now and then? If we put other measures in place, some of those lives could be saved. What do you tell their families at the funeral? “Sorry, I was too focused on repealing the 2nd amendment to push for increased background checks, mental health funding, or regulations regarding properly storage of weapons.”? How do you think those family members would take that as they stand over a the coffin of their loved one?
Click to expand...
Sure, stopgap measures like background checks, increases in mental health funding, or regulations about storing weapons might prevent some deaths until such time as a real solution comes along - by all means such options should be pursued until an effective remedy can be implemented.
 
MD Planner said:
I think that's an incorrect take. Mental health is absolutely not a red herring in my opinion. Yeah, guns seem to be the primary weapon of choice but holy shit, there are a lot of angry and unbalanced people in this country. Doing something about THAT would go a long way as well. There's no silver bullet, there are just ingredients in the recipe to hopefully get us to a place where so many people don't get to the point where they want to harm a lot of people at a school, shopping center, concert, etc.
Click to expand...
I agree. If we had a health system that recognized mental health as an issue and made it easy and affordable for people to get access to help it would take care of a lot of problems. I'm just saying that some politicians like to use it as a red herring to distract from other reasonable gun laws that they don't want to talk about. We need both, we're not even getting a decent conversation on either. We're too busy talking about immigration or other problems that I feel are a lesser priority.
 
So Nicki "Flip Flop Like A Fish" Haley is the second GOP gasbag to announce her intent to run for the presidency.

What is so disgusting about this is that the midterms are barely in the rear view mirror and already the relentless campaigning is gearing up, with the election more than 18 months away. It seems that every four years, the campaigning starts a month earlier, except that the past couple of presidential election cycles, it is more like 3 months.

There is NEVER EVER a break from the relentless campaigning. Do we really want to put up with the crap for the next year and a half?

It seems like if the powers that be had any sense at all, all campaigning would be prohibited any time more than a year before the Presidential election, and 9 months for mid-terms. Of course it would never happen because the GOP loves to CAMPAIGN, CAMPAIGN, CAMPAIGN, like some ambulance-chasing lawyer will wear you down by constant and relentless litigation.
 
michaelskis said:
I

The point of my post was that we continue to do nothing about mental health services in this county and then wonder why these things continue to happen.
Click to expand...
It's not about mental health in this latest shooting, or the Gendron killer in Buffalo, or that piece of shit that shot up Oxford. It's pure EVIL plain and simple.

I am not interested in hearing about the background of any of these killers. I don't want to hear their "sob stories" I just want to hear about the victims and hope that their families will never stop in their efforts to have their loved ones remembered forever.

As for killers like Gendron, since the death penalty is off the table, my only hope is that they get shanked in prison.
 
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Faust_Motel said:
Is the CDC allowed to do research on gun deaths yet?
Click to expand...
New Yorker mag has a story either current or last week or two about just such a study by an epidemiologist that works for NIH I think. There are and have been a number of pilot programs operating in urban settings where gun violence is concentrated. So far their success is mixed at best and their methods are evolving.
 
Wannaplan? said:
Except that your glib and tone deaf response about how to go about purchasing hand guns in Michigan - just after a mass shooting - reveals how disingenuous you really are.
Click to expand...

I get it, you don't like what I posted. But tell you what, when you are ready to have a legitimate conversation about additional regulations that have a real chance of actually getting approved, and have a real possibility of making a difference, I will be more than happy to engage in conversation vs you just bashing my posts.

Super Amputee Cat said:
It's not about mental health in this latest shooting, or the Gendron killer in Buffalo, or that piece of shit that shot up Oxford. It's pure EVIL plain and simple.


I am not interested in hearing about the background of any of these killers. I don't want to hear their "sob stories" I just want to hear about the victims and hope that their families will never stop in their efforts to have their loved ones remembered forever.


As for killers like Gendron, since the death penalty is off the table, my only hope is that they get shanked in prison.
Click to expand...

I completely agree in terms of media coverage. I do however wish there was more research done into why these people do these types of things and what can be done to remove, or at least reduce that why.
 
Planit said:
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Old article, but they have been opposed to it for decades which is beyond stupid. It made me happy that I was not a member anymore when this came out. If anything, the research should help them because it will highlight deficiencies in training protocols (like proper storage) and should be something that they should help fund. When a bad guy does something evil with a gun, it makes all gun owners look bad.
 
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