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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

"Massachusetts bill allows inmates to swap organs for less prison time. Ethics experts say it's exploitative."
news.yahoo.com

Mass. bill allows inmates to swap organs for less prison time. Ethics experts say it's exploitative.

A new bill proposed in Massachusetts would allow incarcerated individuals the option of donating their organs in exchange for a reduction in their sentences. The bill's authors believe the move will "restore bodily autonomy" to inmates, but ethics experts say it's potentially exploitative and...
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com

imho This is potentially exploitative and also illegal.
It almost certainly will get struck down in the courts;
I wonder which legal arguments will be used..?
 
michaelskis said:
I apologize, but I am still trying to see the connection on how this will prevent criminal activity. You mentioned auto insurance… if someone is going to be a get away driver for a bank heist, last thing they are going to worry about is if the car they steal to do the job is properly insured.

Having said that, I do support training requirement and red flag laws for the purchase of any handgun or semi-automatic weapon. I also firmly believe that every handgun should come with a lock on its case.
Click to expand...

Well hot shot, you haven't suggested a single damn thing so let's hear it. What's your bright idea? Murder is super illegal yet it is the leading cause of death for pregnant women. It is near impossible to police thoughts and motives for criminal behavior without going deep into sociological and psychological issues. Every single threat seems to have a different motivation. You can address lethality by just trying to reduce the quantity of guns, and there's a variety of precedent approaches to that.

You have to create a hardcore disincentive that impacts parent/guardian and an incentive to report before the threat escalates. This, of course, assumes they are functional guardians. So that also means you probably need double-to-triple the number of guidance counselors and potentially on-site psychological assistance/therapy for students, reduced class sizes so teachers have greater ability to give attention (and spot threats). Immediate confiscation of all firearms in the household with no opportunity to recover them, and a financial penalty for the call-out is about as far as you can reasonably go on the disincentive. I'm not sure what the carrot would be to encourage reporting. Maybe a guarantee of help rather than expulsion/long-term suspension? Reward for teachers/counselors for early intervention? No idea really.

I'll also note that school districts cannot be trusted to properly investigate. A friend of mine is going through this with his son, who has been falsely accused of a threat on the basis that he had pictures on his instagram of target shooting (round targets with his dad) and he & his friends making fun of the threat on social media. He has had to get an education lawyer to deal with it.
 
Suburb Repairman said:
Well hot shot, you haven't suggested a single damn thing so let's hear it. What's your bright idea? Murder is super illegal yet it is the leading cause of death for pregnant women. It is near impossible to police thoughts and motives for criminal behavior without going deep into sociological and psychological issues. Every single threat seems to have a different motivation. You can address lethality by just trying to reduce the quantity of guns, and there's a variety of precedent approaches to that.

You have to create a hardcore disincentive that impacts parent/guardian and an incentive to report before the threat escalates. This, of course, assumes they are functional guardians. So that also means you probably need double-to-triple the number of guidance counselors and potentially on-site psychological assistance/therapy for students, reduced class sizes so teachers have greater ability to give attention (and spot threats). Immediate confiscation of all firearms in the household with no opportunity to recover them, and a financial penalty for the call-out is about as far as you can reasonably go on the disincentive. I'm not sure what the carrot would be to encourage reporting. Maybe a guarantee of help rather than expulsion/long-term suspension? Reward for teachers/counselors for early intervention? No idea really.

I'll also note that school districts cannot be trusted to properly investigate. A friend of mine is going through this with his son, who has been falsely accused of a threat on the basis that he had pictures on his instagram of target shooting (round targets with his dad) and he & his friends making fun of the threat on social media. He has had to get an education lawyer to deal with it.
Click to expand...

You seem frustrated that I ask questions. But I ask questions because I know I don't have all the answers. I apologize if you feel I have attacked your answers in anyway. I asked further questions to better understand the deeper reasoning behind your responses.

For regulations, my suggestions, which are to start a conversation but I realize they don't fix all the problems, are as follows:
  • Increased funding and support for mental health issues, especially in schools.
  • Consistent background check system on a national level for the purchase of all firearms. This background check may be simplified if a person has a canceled carry permit that already requires a more in-depth background check.
  • A "go/no-go red flag mental notice on these background checks that puts a hold on the purchase of any firearm if there is a history of concern of mental health and may only be included or removed by a license medical professional... not law enforcement.
  • An instant connection to law enforcement data bases to include a legal go/no-go red flag legal notice for things such as restraining orders, domestic violence calls, or other pattern of documented violence.
  • A requirement that all pistols include a case and a lock as part of sale. Some states already require this, but this should be a national standard.
  • A requirement that gun dealers (including gun shows) go through an detailed explanation on how to properly store and secure firearms for the sale of any weapon (may be waived for concealed carry holders)
However, the most important is going back to culture. We live in a culture of anger and violence and we are progressively removing and restricting avenues to address these issues. Quality youth programs are no longer getting funded, more and more households are single parent households, and there is a progressive decline of father figures in the lives of kids. This goes beyond just the kids having a male figure in the house, but one that is actually involved with their kids lives in a positive way.

I think in times like this, some people are quick to say that Americans have a gun fetish. Yea, we one more guns per capita than any other country on the planet. But the deeper question is why do we have a violence issue? Why do these children feel that they need to post crap like this on social media? Why do kids feel like they need to take action to inflict harm on someone at school in the first place? Why do adults feel this way as well. It is easy to blame the tool, but the more important question that we should be asking ourselves is why do they need this tool in the first place?
 
1675852304872.png
 
I did not watch TSOTU last night. They commented about who all responded on the news this morning. Trump made some ridiculous comment about Biden's corruption.

Did you watch and what are your thoughts?
 
I haven't watched a State of the Union address in probably 20 years. If I care enough to know what was said, the transcript is readily available online. I do not care one iota for all the theatrics and pomp surrounding the occasion. Same goes for local "State of the County" (and I usually have a hand in writing the d@mn thing!) or "State of the State" addresses.
 
I sort of watched it in the background. I dislike the level of discourse where elected members of our government feel yelling about something is necessary. The speech is and has always been about rah, rah, rah for the party in power, so the concept that he wouldn't say topics that you disagreed with isn't crazy. Like you really need to boo him over assault weapon bans? You know where he stands. This isn't 3rd grade.

I didn't notice anything special about it. It seemed about the same as all the others. I will say Biden isn't a great speaker, he comes across as old. His "fire" is really based on words, not physical speaking or his mannerisms.

I give it a meh out on a scale of whatever.
 
Also, I enjoy that the Trump v. DeSantis fight is heating up. It makes for great tabloid fodder.

Donald Trump, who ripped through the 2016 presidential field with attacks on his rivals, reposted images of a young Ron DeSantis allegedly partying with high school teens and adding his own mocking commentary.

'That's not Ron, is it? He would never do such a thing!' Trump wrote on his Truth Social platform.

The post linked to a Truth Social Account that grabbed a digital image of a young man with a bowl haircut who appears to be DeSantis surrounded by three young women.
Click to expand...
www.dailymail.co.uk

Trump posts pics of DeSantis allegedly partying with high school girls

Donald Trump reposted an image by a commenter who said rival Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis was 'grooming' high school girls, and who posted a 20-year-old photo from when he was a teacher.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
I didn't watch the SOTU, but I saw this clip on Twitter this morning. All I can say is, Dark Brandon Has Entered The Chat. F*cking masterclass. Morons walked right into it. Speaker Qevin and Mike Lee know it, you could see it on their faces.

 
I watched some of the SOTU and thought Biden did better than what I expected.

The debating between him and members of the GOP was kind of embarrassing.

Why did Kamala look so short in her chair?
 
estromberg said:
I didn't watch the SOTU, but I saw this clip on Twitter this morning. All I can say is, Dark Brandon Has Entered The Chat. F*cking masterclass. Morons walked right into it. Speaker Qevin and Mike Lee know it, you could see it on their faces.

Click to expand...
Approaching circus level. Maybe this happens more than I know as I don't watch since whatever president is in office is just spewing half-truths. Just a sell job by any party to build up theirs and put down the other.
 
Plus the "rebuttal" is already written (& probably taped) prior to the SOTU.

The best the Rs could do is get Sarah Lying Huckabee to give the rebuttal. HA.

Her closing statement sure has hit some as irony - “The choice is no longer between right or left, the choice is between normal and crazy.”
 
Maister said:
pep rallies for political parties
Click to expand...

I recall watching Clinton in 1994 as an undergrad with my roommates and he held up a health card and talking about health care for all, or something like that. Well, guess what? Talk is cheap when you have to wait 15+ years for a policy initiative to get rolling.
 
estromberg said:
I didn't watch the SOTU, but I saw this clip on Twitter this morning. All I can say is, Dark Brandon Has Entered The Chat. F*cking masterclass. Morons walked right into it. Speaker Qevin and Mike Lee know it, you could see it on their faces.
Click to expand...

I had it on the background, and agree that that was a pretty clever move Biden did. My biggest takeaways is that things that topics most would think are good things elicited no response from the GOP members, which reinforces the hyper partisan divide we have. I also get a chuckle that some claim Biden to be utterly lost and senile, but when he has a decent enough speech, there's this conspiracy that it's a fake Biden. We live in odd times, and I really don't know how we unite and move forward. As people like MTG show, being the hardline and obnoxious partisan works to elevate their status.

I do agree with Hink that Biden isn't the best orator, and his age hasn't/isn't going to help.
 
That speech started out really rough. "I'm uhhh jealous of my wife, ahhhh, ummm" It was not a good look. DeSantis is the next president unless the Dems find somebody fast who is rational and reasoned enough to find that sweet spot that exists with both moderate Democrats and Republicans. I find it interesting that I've heard several people I know who are staunchly Republican say that they'd vote for Pete.
 
MD Planner said:
That speech started out really rough. "I'm uhhh jealous of my wife, ahhhh, ummm" It was not a good look. DeSantis is the next president unless the Dems find somebody fast who is rational and reasoned enough to find that sweet spot that exists with both moderate Democrats and Republicans. I find it interesting that I've heard several people I know who are staunchly Republican say that they'd vote for Pete.
Click to expand...

Buttigieg or Aguilar?
 
MD Planner said:
I really don't think so. Too many of his own party are tired of him.
Click to expand...
Granted, many GOP elected officials and inner party members are sick of his shit and understand he's dragging the party down, but there's a sizeable percentage of the electorate that believe they want him back in power. So long as a majority of primary voters support him, he's not going away. That was the Faustian bargain the GOP struck back in 2016.
 
WSU MUP Student said:
Just looked it up now - she's only 5' 2" (I always figured she was much taller than that) and Kevin McCarthy is 5' 10" so she definitely looks even shorter by comparison next to him.

Also... this SOTU-related Tweet made me laugh:

Looks like a skunk hair collar. Road kill?
Click to expand...
 
If it really had been a weather balloon, wouldn't it have been easy to pick up the phone and say "Yo, Canada, China here. One of our civilian weather balloons broke off course and is coming your way. Wanted to give you a heads up. Sorry. Won't happen again."
 
Gedunker said:
If it really had been a weather balloon, wouldn't it have been easy to pick up the phone and say "Yo, Canada, China here. One of our civilian weather balloons broke off course and is coming your way. Wanted to give you a heads up. Sorry. Won't happen again."
Click to expand...
meme-motorla_canada.jpg
 
Last edited:
MD Planner said:
I really don't think so. Too many of his own party are tired of him.
Click to expand...

National GOP politicians, sure. But at the local level and general populace, he still has some pretty rabid and consistent support. And with the overall narrative Trump has cultivated, those GOP members that tired of him would be viewed as the conspiracy to stop him.
 
There were more school lockdowns yesterday and two HS school students were shot, one of who passed away this morning a short distance from the their HS on the other side of our region.

The schoolboard chair is working with the superintendent and the media to get out steps to help keep kids safe, starting with asking parents to talk to their kids about this issue to prevent them from thinking about doing something like that and going to teachers or administrators if they hear about a potential issue in the future. She is also pushing for a state law to require people keep handguns locked and properly secured.

What other reasonable solutions can you think of to keep kids safe and guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. Everyone is super quick to express their opinions when there is a mass shooting but far more people are shot or killed during events that do not meet that definition.

So, I once again ask, what is your solution, and is that solution actually something that could get implemented or is it just a pollical pipedream.
 
michaelskis said:
There were more school lockdowns yesterday and two HS school students were shot, one of who passed away this morning a short distance from the their HS on the other side of our region.

The schoolboard chair is working with the superintendent and the media to get out steps to help keep kids safe, starting with asking parents to talk to their kids about this issue to prevent them from thinking about doing something like that and going to teachers or administrators if they hear about a potential issue in the future. She is also pushing for a state law to require people keep handguns locked and properly secured.

What other reasonable solutions can you think of to keep kids safe and guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. Everyone is super quick to express their opinions when there is a mass shooting but far more people are shot or killed during events that do not meet that definition.

So, I once again ask, what is your solution, and is that solution actually something that could get implemented or is it just a pollical pipedream.
Click to expand...
The fact that I didn't hear about a shooting at a school in the United States should tell you all about where we are as a country.

We may pretend to care about kids, but unless we are willing to push for reform, including changing the decades of underenforcement against gun owners, we are only allowing the issue to continue.

You know what the solutions are. You know what we should be doing, but you continually say those solutions won't work. Everything is a political pipedream. My question is why are you okay with allowing this to continue, so we we can keep a dusty document and the guys who wrote it "protected" when you won't make changes to protect our kids today?
 
Hink said:
The fact that I didn't hear about a shooting at a school in the United States should tell you all about where we are as a country.

We may pretend to care about kids, but unless we are willing to push for reform, including changing the decades of underenforcement against gun owners, we are only allowing the issue to continue.

You know what the solutions are. You know what we should be doing, but you continually say those solutions won't work. Everything is a political pipedream. My question is why are you okay with allowing this to continue, so we we can keep a dusty document and the guys who wrote it "protected" when you won't make changes to protect our kids today?
Click to expand...

Regardless of what I think, do you think something like that would actually get approved and if so, do you think that millions of gun owners would voluntarily turn in their guns?

If not, what other suggestions do you have?

I would love to live in a world where no civilian ever needed to have a gun, where no bad people had them, and there was no abuse of power by police or other governmental organizations. But is there a way we can actually get to that world, and as someone who had a gun pulled on them a few decades ago, I can tell you that we are not there. Not even close.
 
michaelskis said:
I would love to live in a world where no civilian ever needed to have a gun, where no bad people had them, and there was no abuse of power by police or other governmental organizations. But is there a way we can actually get to that world, and as someone who had a gun pulled on them a few decades ago, I can tell you that we are not there. Not even close.
Click to expand...
For this part...move to Australia...which is about as analogous a developed country as we can get.

 
mendelman said:
For this part...move to Australia.

Click to expand...

Let me ask you if you think this approach would work in the US? Do you think that the person who shot this HS student would turn in their gun?

www.wral.com

Another day of threats at Hillside High: Sheriff calls for metal detectors, Durham remembers a young man with potential

Hillside High School in Durham was on "secure status," meaning doors to the outside are locked but classes continue, for about an hour Thursday afternoon while Durham police officers and sheriff's deputies searched the woods near the school after getting an anonymous tip about weapons there.
www.wral.com www.wral.com

If there was a way to do it here without causing a civil war and having the certainty that the guns were taken away from those who intended to cause harm, that would be wonderful. I just don't see it happening.
 
michaelskis said:
Let me ask you if you think this approach would work in the US? Do you think that the person who shot this HS student would turn in their gun?

www.wral.com

Another day of threats at Hillside High: Sheriff calls for metal detectors, Durham remembers a young man with potential

Hillside High School in Durham was on "secure status," meaning doors to the outside are locked but classes continue, for about an hour Thursday afternoon while Durham police officers and sheriff's deputies searched the woods near the school after getting an anonymous tip about weapons there.
www.wral.com www.wral.com

If there was a way to do it here without causing a civil war and having the certainty that the guns were taken away from those who intended to cause harm, that would be wonderful. I just don't see it happening.
Click to expand...
Then give your proposal.

You keep asking and receiving then dismissing without giving/repeating your own solutions.
 
Last edited:
michaelskis said:
Regardless of what I think, do you think something like that would actually get approved and if so, do you think that millions of gun owners would voluntarily turn in their guns?
Click to expand...
No, clearly people who think guns are more important than children's lives wouldn't just give up their fun toy. They would have to be incentivized or hit with a stick.

In the end we don't have to take all existing guns, we just need to make buying a new gun next to impossible for anyone who doesn't really need one. Think the government is going to come to your house? Don't need one. Think good guys with guns are a thing, don't need one. Want to kill 74 deer in 17 seconds, don't need one.

Live in Montana on a ranch, sure there is a process for you.

No person in the suburbs of Atlanta needs a semi-automatic weapon.

Give money for each gun you turn in. Give massive tax breaks. DO SOMETHING.
 
mendelman said:
Then give your proposal.

You keep asking and receiving then dismissing without giving/repeating your own solutions.
Click to expand...

michaelskis said:
You seem frustrated that I ask questions. But I ask questions because I know I don't have all the answers. I apologize if you feel I have attacked your answers in anyway. I asked further questions to better understand the deeper reasoning behind your responses.

For regulations, my suggestions, which are to start a conversation but I realize they don't fix all the problems, are as follows:
  • Increased funding and support for mental health issues, especially in schools.
  • Consistent background check system on a national level for the purchase of all firearms. This background check may be simplified if a person has a canceled carry permit that already requires a more in-depth background check.
  • A "go/no-go red flag mental notice on these background checks that puts a hold on the purchase of any firearm if there is a history of concern of mental health and may only be included or removed by a license medical professional... not law enforcement.
  • An instant connection to law enforcement data bases to include a legal go/no-go red flag legal notice for things such as restraining orders, domestic violence calls, or other pattern of documented violence.
  • A requirement that all pistols include a case and a lock as part of sale. Some states already require this, but this should be a national standard.
  • A requirement that gun dealers (including gun shows) go through an detailed explanation on how to properly store and secure firearms for the sale of any weapon (may be waived for concealed carry holders)
However, the most important is going back to culture. We live in a culture of anger and violence and we are progressively removing and restricting avenues to address these issues. Quality youth programs are no longer getting funded, more and more households are single parent households, and there is a progressive decline of father figures in the lives of kids. This goes beyond just the kids having a male figure in the house, but one that is actually involved with their kids lives in a positive way.

I think in times like this, some people are quick to say that Americans have a gun fetish. Yea, we one more guns per capita than any other country on the planet. But the deeper question is why do we have a violence issue? Why do these children feel that they need to post crap like this on social media? Why do kids feel like they need to take action to inflict harm on someone at school in the first place? Why do adults feel this way as well. It is easy to blame the tool, but the more important question that we should be asking ourselves is why do they need this tool in the first place?
Click to expand...

I guess you have not seen this the several times that I have posted it.
 
michaelskis said:
I guess you have not seen this the several times that I have posted it.
Click to expand...
I have, so you need to repeat is every time you ask one of your red herring questions looking for solutions.

How do we stop people from shooting other people if we're not going to remove/reduce the number of guns in circulation?

If negligence, straw-buying, trafficking, required insurance, manslaughter, etc laws on improper ownership are not going to be enacted/enforced, then we need precogs and precrime legislation.
 
mendelman said:
I have, so you need to repeat is every time you ask one of your red herring questions looking for solutions.
Click to expand...

Are you opposed to any of my suggestions?

mendelman said:
How do we stop people from shooting other people if we're not going to remove/reduce the number of guns in circulation?
Click to expand...
1) Improved mental health services including in depth understanding on why people commit gun violence in the first place. The only way to prevent something is to understand why it happens in the first place. People who are hellbent on hurting others will find a way regardless of the tools avalible to them.
2) Improved laws and regulations pertaining to the proper storage of firearms to prevent access to those who should not have them
3) Improved and consistent background checks before the sale of any firearm.

It won't solve all the problems but it is a start that might actually have a chance of having bipartisan support.
 
michaelskis said:
Are you opposed to any of my suggestions?


1) Improved mental health services including in depth understanding on why people commit gun violence in the first place. The only way to prevent something is to understand why it happens in the first place. People who are hellbent on hurting others will find a way regardless of the tools avalible to them.
2) Improved laws and regulations pertaining to the proper storage of firearms to prevent access to those who should not have them
3) Improved and consistent background checks before the sale of any firearm.

It won't solve all the problems but it is a start that might actually have a chance of having bipartisan support.
Click to expand...
Agree.

The real problem is not doing anything or going backwards. This is what's actually happening at the Federal level which is where the only real change can occur that will be effective.
 
I was at a repair shop recently having work done on my car. I was unable to get a ride home while work was being done, so I plugged in my airpods and sat in the waiting room listening to tunes. There were a few magazines in the waiting area - ones for a local megachurch, and a bunch from a shooter group, which I guess is supported by arms manufacturers. I would call it "long gun porn" frankly. There was a foreboding aura - really bad guys are out there everywhere and they are a real and active and present threat to your way of life and you need to defend yourself with this rifle and these bullets. It wasn't just one issue, but every damn one of the magazines I leafed through was the same shit. I truly felt dirty just looking at the damned stuff.

How do we protect kids, when some maker markets and sells the JR-15 which looks pretty much like a military weapon, for kids? Give the kids the weapon that looks like what mom and pop use! Absofuckinglutely brilliant!

Guns in America: Absurd. Filthy. Fetish.
 
Gedunker said:
How do we protect kids, when some maker markets and sells the JR-15 which looks pretty much like a military weapon, for kids? Give the kids the weapon that looks like what mom and pop use!
Click to expand...
Essentially that's shades of candy cigarettes and Joe the Camel cartoon ads aimed at marketing for children.

One political solution would be to treat guns legally the same as we treat pharmaceuticals; potentially helpful tools in the hands of experts, but also carrying great potential for harm resulting from misuse and abuse. Owning a firearm should not be a right, but rather a privilege. This is how it is done in many other countries around the world and there's no physical reason that it can't be done here too. Firearms are waaay too easy to get a hold of, as there are so many of them. There's more guns than there are people in this country. The most effective way to drive down the number of murders and gun violence (never mind mass shootings) is to reduce the quantity of firearms found in our country. Several ways to do this have already been mentioned.
 
From an article on a new ATF gun crime report

6 major takeaways from the ATF's first report in 20 years on U.S. gun crime

"A huge way those legally purchased firearms get into the hands of criminals is through theft, the ATF said. In five years, there were more than 1 million firearms stolen from private citizens and reported to authorities."

"Roughly 4.6 million children live in a home with loaded and unlocked firearms , studies have shown.

And over 80% of mass shooters at K-12 schools stole guns from family members, according to research funded by the National Institute of Justice (a program of the U.S. Justice Department) that examined mass shootings that took place from 1966 to 2019."

From the actual report:
"For the entire study period, the median TTC (time from purchase to crime) was 1,293 days or slightly more than three years, meaning that half of the traced crime guns were purchased within this time period.... As shown in Figure IFT-02, about 25% of traced crime guns were recovered within one year of their purchase."

The report basically makes it sound like we buy lots of guns and don't secure them. Then for the guns traced in this report over 25% were used within 1 year and 50% were used to commit a crime within 3 years. Maybe if we didn't produce as many guns the number of gun deaths would drop over time.
 
Last edited:
bureaucrat#3 said:
The report basically makes it sound like we buy lots of guns and don't secure them. Then for the guns traced in this report over 25% were used within 1 year and 50% were used to commit a crime within 3 years. Maybe if we didn't produce as many guns the number of gun deaths would drop over time.
Click to expand...
Or make it take over a year to get the gun.

I also think we need to hold gun owners liable for anything that happens with a gun they bought. Kid gets ahold of it, you are liable for everything. Someone steals it and does a crime, you are liable.

We need to put the punishment on those who won't do the right thing, so that the next generation can stop seeing guns as a solution to our problems, instead of the creation of many of the problems in our society.
 
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