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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Hawkeye66 said:
No one disagrees that mental health isnt part of the issue. The other part is ease of access to firearms. It should be harder to get them. Rights dont come without responsibilities. Some inconvenience is not going to hurt anyone.

Its pitiful that we are talking about teachers being armed. Pitiful. I am not sure I could be more embarrassed to be an American than I am now.
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The incidence of mental illness is fairly uniform across borders all around the world. However, the US stands apart from all other nations as it experiences orders of magnitude more mass shootings than any other country. The difference is that it is FAR easier for the mentally ill in this country to gain access to firearms. There are too damned many guns in this country and they are way too easy to get a hold of. The more we can do to limit access and availability to firearms, the fewer school shootings we'll see. Just like every other civilized country on earth. And yes, improving mental health services would also help our society in several ways.
 
Mental health is a huge, but its fuzzy.

A lot of people give you signals before they do bad things, some don't. In the case of the domestic violence murders I've been exposed to, everything was normal from the outside until the wife either announced she was leaving or admitted to having an affair. In all three, the husband snapped killed her, in one case the kids, and then himself in a matter of hours.

I have a close family member who is showing stages of early onset dementia. That side of the family is very pro gun. Their mother loses her gun quite often and its found in the couch, under the car seat, or some other random place. Family with lots of young children laugh about it, but no one wants to hurt her feelings by telling her she doesn't need a handgun.

I have multiple friends (former friends) who in the past few years have started building arsenals and prepping. They have become overtly racist (replacement theory/ready to protect retail stores from non-existent BLM riots in our small town), conspiracy driven (qanon/religious end times/anti-establishment), and quick to anger. Some times they are same people who would help anyone and sometimes anyone who is not like me is out to get me. I don't know if there's any mental issue other than being led to believe a bunch of insane stuff. I don't think any of them would necessarily initiate violence. I do think that some could perceive a situation in an outlandish way and do something monumentally stupid and violent.
 
Maister said:
The incidence of mental illness is fairly uniform across borders all around the world. However, the US stands apart from all other nations as it experiences orders of magnitude more mass shootings than any other country. The difference is that it is FAR easier for the mentally ill in this country to gain access to firearms. There are too damned many guns in this country and they are way too easy to get a hold of. The more we can do to limit access and availability to firearms, the fewer school shootings we'll see. Just like every other civilized country on earth. And yes, improving mental health services would also help our society in several ways.
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Yeah except there are so many guns out there already it will be next to impossible to really limit that access. If someone really wants to get a gun and kill he will. No matter what. He may be delayed by a day, or a week, but it will happen.

The sheer number of guns being being manufactured is staggering. Gun manufacturing in 2020 was up almost 200% over 2000. I suspect it will be even worse in 2022, as the Big Lie/Anti-Abortion/Gun Rights foamers entrench themselves even more.

Gun Sales WSJ 2022-05-16.jpg
 
Why the AR-15 Is So Lethal
www.theatlantic.com

Why the AR-15 Is So Lethal

“The little bullet pays off in wound ballistics.”
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com

One of the installments was called “The M-16: A Bureaucratic Horror Story,” and it included the origin story of the AR-15. That article was not previously available online, but my colleague Annika Neklason has just digitized it from the archives, and it’s now available.
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Article worth reading
www.theatlantic.com

M-16: A Bureaucratic Horror Story

Why the rifles jammed
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
 
michaelskis said:
While I tried to find elements of compromise, it is apparent that isn't going to happen. I think that is reflective of the problems with society today. Good luck with the all or nothing approach. Let me know how gathering all the AR-15s go for y'all.
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So when you lose an argument like any gun owner you go to the empty threat of try to take them. I'm not actually saying take everyone's gun. I'm saying no longer manufacture and sell AR-15s. Suck it up. You can't have your fancy toy because everyone else ruined it for you and you didn't stop it. It will make the lucky people who own one have a collector piece. It also works to start phasing out dangerous things. Remember cars with no seat belts? What are you going to do force seat belts? No, we just require everything to change from this date.

Mental health is a problem in every country, but in this case it's a dangling key side track from politicians. In most of these mass shootings we didn't know they had problems and if you did what are you going to do? take away constitutional rights from everyone that ever had a bout of depression? We all know we're not doing that.

So what can you do? Write your politicians that you want some kind of gun control. It doesn't do much but it's something. You can also vote, speak out against politicians that do nothing. There are always little things that can be done. Hell, you could just not be part of the problem and not feel the need to own guns or stop making poor excuses to own guns like I need protection. From what? other people with guns?
 
DVD said:
So when you lose an argument like any gun owner you go to the empty threat of try to take them. I'm not actually saying take everyone's gun. I'm saying no longer manufacture and sell AR-15s. Suck it up. You can't have your fancy toy because everyone else ruined it for you and you didn't stop it. It will make the lucky people who own one have a collector piece. It also works to start phasing out dangerous things. Remember cars with no seat belts? What are you going to do force seat belts? No, we just require everything to change from this date.

Mental health is a problem in every country, but in this case it's a dangling key side track from politicians. In most of these mass shootings we didn't know they had problems and if you did what are you going to do? take away constitutional rights from everyone that ever had a bout of depression? We all know we're not doing that.

So what can you do? Write your politicians that you want some kind of gun control. It doesn't do much but it's something. You can also vote, speak out against politicians that do nothing. There are always little things that can be done. Hell, you could just not be part of the problem and not feel the need to own guns or stop making poor excuses to own guns like I need protection. From what? other people with guns?
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I stopped engaging because it is apparent that nothing I say is going to influence anyone's thoughts on the matter. Y'all make up your minds already and there while I am searching for compromise, it is apparent that many of you are not willing to. I also realized that all of this conversation is futile anyways as we are not elected to a seat in our states or DC.

Personally, I am going to write to my federal elected officials some of what I said in response here about both practical gun regulations and enhancing mental health spending. It will include universal federal background checks and if there is any reason for a person not to have a weapon, empower health care professionals to put a flag on the background requiring medial signoff before someone can purchase a gun.
 
A related victim

Grieving husband of teacher killed in Texas school shooting has died, family says
www.nbcnews.com

Grieving husband of teacher killed in Texas school shooting has died, family says

Joe Garcia had been married to his high school sweetheart, Irma, for 24 years before she was gunned down at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

Doctors described this as a potential example of "broken heart syndrome, formally known as takotsubo cardiomyopathy, that generally occurs in response to an extreme stressor like the sudden death of a spouse. Unlike a standard heart attack, which is caused by blocked arteries, people with broken heart syndrome release a burst of stress hormones that prevent their heart from contracting properly.
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JNA said:
A related victim

Grieving husband of teacher killed in Texas school shooting has died, family says
www.nbcnews.com

Grieving husband of teacher killed in Texas school shooting has died, family says

Joe Garcia had been married to his high school sweetheart, Irma, for 24 years before she was gunned down at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
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That reminds me of a story I heard about a woman who died 10 years after her husband was killed in 9/11 from some heart-related iillness. They attributed it to some kind of broken heart syndrome that you mention. I do believe it's a real thing. She literally died of a broken heart. It just took 10 years. :(
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
Walker looks like a mess, although as a resident of the "great" State of Alabama, I'm not throwing any stones. All our candidates are on a race to see how batsh*t crazy right they can go. I don't know that any of them will go as far as the GA gov candidate Taylor. She's next level.

https://www.newsweek.com/native-americans-made-sacrifice-our-right-worship-jesus-taylor-1708855 (Native Americans made "sacrifice" for "our right to worship Jesus": Taylor)

Kandiss Taylor Warns 'Death by Firing Squad' to Corrupt Officials at Rally

Her obsession with the GA Guidestones is just weird. Georgia Guv Candidate Builds Campaign on Demolition of ‘Satanic’ Tablets
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Once you learn to recognize the devil you see him everywhere you look. The more you notice him the closer he gets. It must be maddening.

The weapon used at Uvalde was made rite here in jawga, by a company I think is in big trouble. Their name is Daniel Defense, and one look at their website tells me they will follow Remington into bankruptcy once the Sandy Hook survivors' lawyers get done with them in civil court.

In civil court the second amendment is a wet noodle, and guns are not allowed on premises.
 
JNA said:
Why the AR-15 Is So Lethal
www.theatlantic.com

Why the AR-15 Is So Lethal

“The little bullet pays off in wound ballistics.”
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com



Article worth reading
www.theatlantic.com

M-16: A Bureaucratic Horror Story

Why the rifles jammed
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
Click to expand...


Without access I did not read the link but I knew years ago about the gun's lethal character. The bullet speed is high 4K fps if I recall, plus the fact that the little .223 bullet tumbles in flight with a variable but tearing path through flesh.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
Mental health is a huge, but its fuzzy.

A lot of people give you signals before they do bad things, some don't. In the case of the domestic violence murders I've been exposed to, everything was normal from the outside until the wife either announced she was leaving or admitted to having an affair. In all three, the husband snapped killed her, in one case the kids, and then himself in a matter of hours.

I have a close family member who is showing stages of early onset dementia. That side of the family is very pro gun. Their mother loses her gun quite often and its found in the couch, under the car seat, or some other random place. Family with lots of young children laugh about it, but no one wants to hurt her feelings by telling her she doesn't need a handgun.

I have multiple friends (former friends) who in the past few years have started building arsenals and prepping. They have become overtly racist (replacement theory/ready to protect retail stores from non-existent BLM riots in our small town), conspiracy driven (qanon/religious end times/anti-establishment), and quick to anger. Some times they are same people who would help anyone and sometimes anyone who is not like me is out to get me. I don't know if there's any mental issue other than being led to believe a bunch of insane stuff. I don't think any of them would necessarily initiate violence. I do think that some could perceive a situation in an outlandish way and do something monumentally stupid and violent.
Click to expand...

Institutional mental care collapsed when equal rights for the mentally impaired was won in the courts. Impaired are to be "mainstreamed" to the maximum extent possible.

A win for the individual but a loss for society. Now the insane are simply jailed or turned out to street living and huddling under bridge overpasses.

I survived an extremely violent household as a teen, and have to say that I broke up a raucous fight there with a deer rifle and my intent to use it. Good guy with gun brings peace to domicile.

We share a common mind of sorts that resides in our communication, and that mind looks more and more militant.
 
michaelskis said:
I stopped engaging because it is apparent that nothing I say is going to influence anyone's thoughts on the matter. Y'all make up your minds already and there while I am searching for compromise, it is apparent that many of you are not willing to. I also realized that all of this conversation is futile anyways as we are not elected to a seat in our states or DC.
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This and a couple other topics are just things you can't change minds on. I have problems with how people argue topics through false logic or side track arguments with a touch of what aboutism. I also have big problems with my elected officials not doing anything. Okay, at least I know one of my electeds is doing something. His wife was shot at a campaign event.
 
DVD said:
This and a couple other topics are just things you can't change minds on. I have problems with how people argue topics through false logic or side track arguments with a touch of what aboutism. I also have big problems with my elected officials not doing anything. Okay, at least I know one of my electeds is doing something. His wife was shot at a campaign event.
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I have found it enjoyable to discuss the merits of solutions, but have no intention to change anyone's hearts or minds. If a tragedy like what happened this week still has people thinking guns and the 2nd Amendment are more important than anything else, full stop, there is no way logic or reason are going to change their minds.

More people need to run for office. It is hard, and it is painful, but good people need to do it. Just like coaching SAY soccer. We need more people willing to do what no one else wants to do.

I think that money in politics has made everything exponentially worse. Ted Cruz is bought and sold by the NRA. So why would he ever vote against the funding that keeps him in office? He won't. Even if kids are killed. Even if church goers are killed. The solution cannot be a reduction in guns, because that would mean the NRA won't give him money any longer.

Have at least Senate and Presidential races required to take federal money and be SUPER transparent should be simple. Reporting of taxes, income, etc. Make the two places where we actually expect people to be leaders (sorry the House is never going to be anything of value until gerrymandering is figured out), have to BE LEADERS.
 
Hink said:
I have found it enjoyable to discuss the merits of solutions, but have no intention to change anyone's hearts or minds. If a tragedy like what happened this week still has people thinking guns and the 2nd Amendment are more important than anything else, full stop, there is no way logic or reason are going to change their minds.

More people need to run for office. It is hard, and it is painful, but good people need to do it. Just like coaching SAY soccer. We need more people willing to do what no one else wants to do.

I think that money in politics has made everything exponentially worse. Ted Cruz is bought and sold by the NRA. So why would he ever vote against the funding that keeps him in office? He won't. Even if kids are killed. Even if church goers are killed. The solution cannot be a reduction in guns, because that would mean the NRA won't give him money any longer.

Have at least Senate and Presidential races required to take federal money and be SUPER transparent should be simple. Reporting of taxes, income, etc. Make the two places where we actually expect people to be leaders (sorry the House is never going to be anything of value until gerrymandering is figured out), have to BE LEADERS.
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If you look at any issue enough....you will find that money and the Citizen's United decision are the root of all evil.
 
“I’m not allowed to fish without a license,” Jimmy Kimmel said during his opening monologue on Thursday. “It shouldn’t be easier to get an AR-15 than a rainbow trout.”
 
Wow, as each hour unfolds, the more the layers of horror are revealed like peeling back an onion. Not only did it take at least 70 minutes for the police to take town the shooter (instead of breaching immediately as was protocol) they didn't believe it was even an active shooter situation for at least 45 minutes. Some evidently didn't even know that there were children in the classroom and a master key wasn't made available for at least 45 minutes.

Not only that, but evidently, a teacher had inadvertently left a side door propped open just minutes before the gunman was able to get access to the building.

The more and more I hear about this story, the more incredible rage I feel. I think like just about every other active shooter situation, it's going to be a huge clusterfuck, with colossal miscues and mistakes and second guesses, any one of which could have prevented or at least reduced the number of killings.

It's like the terrorist mantra. He could have 99 failed dirty bomb attempts, but on that 100th try and the bomb goes off, the terrorist has won.
 
The situation in TX is horrific on its own merits, but to hear how bad the police messed it up brings it to a whole new level.

Given the amount of time the shooter was in there, the weapon he used is irrelevant at this point.
 
michaelskis said:
are you trying to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them, or out of the hands of everyone?
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The problem with this question is the definition of "those who should not have them." It's why the far right won't budge because many people fear that any limitation on gun ownership will directly affect their situation, or is a slippery slope that will result in them losing their guns. Why? Because the whole gun lobby is based on paranoia.
 
Bubba said:
There is a significant percentage of gun owners in the U.S. that have their guns just for hunting animals, and a percentage of those folks also use them for target shooting to improve their animal hunting skills. Are you insinuating that every single one of those folks really just owns guns so they can kill people?
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No, she's insinuating that if someone needs a gun for hunting or target shooting, there isn't an urgent need for instant access to guns.
 
michaelskis said:
The situation in TX is horrific on its own merits, but to hear how bad the police messed it up brings it to a whole new level.

Given the amount of time the shooter was in there, the weapon he used is irrelevant at this point.
Click to expand...
The weapon is never irrelevant. The Police should be held accountable. And it should remind us all that even good guys with guys don't always stop bad guys with guns.

If a mass shooting occurs and I closed my eyes, I could probably guess what weapon was used. That shouldn't be irrelevant. Ever.

--

I heard a statistic being pushed yesterday by Charlie Kirk about our gun statistics being flawed because we count suicides as gun deaths in the United States. In 2020 over half 54% of all gun deaths in the US were suicides. And yet 80% of all murders in the US involve a firearm.

When looking at the US in that context, we are not the most dangerous County related to firearms deaths, with 4.46 deaths / 100,000 population. Venezuela has 26.48. Brazil has 20.7. Columbia has 17.74. Indonesia has 8.9. South Africa has 8.2.

That is all well and good, but when looking at leadership in the world, first world country status, etc. the United State shouldn't exactly consider itself exceptional in that company.

Our peers, the UK, Canada, France and Germany have around 1. China doesn't keep those statistics so who knows, but I am sure it is higher.
 
Doohickie said:
The problem with this question is the definition of "those who should not have them." It's why the far right won't budge because many people fear that any limitation on gun ownership will directly affect their situation, or is a slippery slope that will result in them losing their guns. Why? Because the whole gun lobby is based on paranoia.
Click to expand...

I cannot find the story, but this morning on the local news indicated that there was bipartisan support for increased background check, red-flag laws, increased training for properly securing weapons, additional mental health resources especially for schools, and improved security for schools. I think if we can start with compromise in the elements that we can agree upon, then society can go a long way towards this very real issue.
 
MD Planner said:
It doesn't matter. They had numbers and you don't wait. They should all be fired.
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I dont disagree with you at in the slightest. Get rid of them all. I just think the probably wouldnt have been as scared if the weapon wasnt designed to create so much damage in so little time. I mean manufacturers advertise that these types of guns will even the odds against superior forces. (I do understand this is not the same gun/not same manufacturer. This is one of the ads that was part of the Sandy Hook/Remington settlement.)
Bushmaster-235x300.jpg
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
I dont disagree with you at in the slightest. Get rid of them all. I just think the probably wouldnt have been as scared if the weapon wasnt designed to create so much damage in so little time. I mean manufacturers advertise that these types of guns will even the odds against superior forces. (I do understand this is not the same gun/not same manufacturer. This is one of the ads that was part of the Sandy Hook/Remington settlement.)
View attachment 57352
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This is the ad from the maker of the assault rifle used in Texas. It ran on the day of the shooting.

 
My wife showed me a tictokface thing where a guy trolled the NRA by thanking Lapierre for the thoughts and prayers and if we all pray about it enough these shootings will end. I guess you need to see it, but I don't do the facetictwitter thing.
 
DVD said:
My wife showed me a tictokface thing where a guy trolled the NRA by thanking Lapierre for the thoughts and prayers and if we all pray about it enough these shootings will end. I guess you need to see it, but I don't do the facetictwitter thing.
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I read about that and it seemed like some people didn't even get the irony as the guy was trolling LaPierre & the NRA.
 
Planit said:
This is the ad from the maker of the assault rifle used in Texas. It ran on the day of the shooting.

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This Daniel guy is truly a monster. Too bad it's Texas and they won't to after him for being complicit in 22 counts of First Degree Murder (Yes I'm counting the husband of the teacher who died as a murder victim)

The maker of the gun used in the school massacre got $3.1 million in pandemic aid.

Gun in Texas shooting came from company known for pushing boundaries
 
Last edited:
That gun maker will be hauled into civil court and rendered broke before this is over. The Sandy Hook survivors' lawyers drove Remington into bankruptcy.
 
DVD said:
My wife showed me a tictokface thing where a guy trolled the NRA by thanking Lapierre for the thoughts and prayers and if we all pray about it enough these shootings will end. I guess you need to see it, but I don't do the facetictwitter thing.
Click to expand...

It was some great trolling.
 
"Thoughts and Prayers" I HATE HATE HATE that phrase. It's become more than a dismissive catchall to excuse GOP inaction on gun violence (or anything other public health emergency for that matter), they are now deliberately and willfully saying it just to further incite and inflame. It is depraved indifference at it's worst. Well f**k their thoughts AND MOST CERTAINLY FUCK THEIR PRAYERS.
 
Super Amputee Cat said:
"Thoughts and Prayers" I HATE HATE HATE that phrase. It's become more than a dismissive catchall to excuse GOP inaction on gun violence (or anything other public health emergency for that matter), they are now deliberately and willfully saying it just to further incite and inflame. It is depraved indifference at it's worst. Well f**k their thoughts AND MOST CERTAINLY FUCK THEIR PRAYERS.
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All this hate is eating you up, bro.
 
Super Amputee Cat said:
I'd like to think so, but if the GOP gets in this year and Trump wins in '24 that civil suit will go nowhere.
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My thoughts and prayers are that Trump does not even get the nomination. Much like the last two times, there is zero chance of anyone in my house voting for him. Personally, I believe that he should be convicted of instigating a domestic terrorism for the January 6 events.
 
Our primary is in a couple of weeks. We have open primaries in South Carolina so you just tell them what ballot you want. For the first time in my voting life I will be asking for a ballot so I can specifically cast a vote AGAINST someone rather than for someone else.
 
A woman who was shot in the Brooklyn subway mass shooting is suing gunmaker Glock for damages
www.cnn.com

A woman who was shot in the Brooklyn subway mass shooting is suing gunmaker Glock for damages | CNN

A woman who was shot in the Brooklyn subway shooting in April filed a lawsuit Tuesday against gunmaker Glock Inc. and its Austria-based parent firm, claiming the company is contributing to "creating and maintaining a public nuisance in the State of New York" and endangering the state's public...
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

claiming the company is contributing to "creating and maintaining a public nuisance in the State of New York" and endangering the state's public health and safety.

is an early test of a 2021 New York state law that enables victims of gun violence to sue firearms manufacturers or dealers for their injuries. The gun industry challenged the law as unconstitutional. Last week, a federal district judge upheld it.
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NY Post -
Brooklyn subway shooting victim sues Glock for ‘recklessly’ marketing guns
nypost.com

Brooklyn subway shooting victim sues Glock for ‘recklessly’ marketing guns

A victim of the Brooklyn subway shooting that injured 29 has sued gun maker Glock after one of their firearms was allegedly used in the attack, new court papers show.
nypost.com nypost.com
 
DVD said:
I do that all the time in Arizona. I'm registered independent so I can pick a primary to vote in. I usually vote in the GOP primary so I can vote for the least crazy person.
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Every primary....usually there either aren't independent or democrat candidates or there's only one.

Local republican primary for state house race was "decided" yesterday. The incumbent lost to a local city council member by 1 vote. Let the recounts and lawsuits begin.
 
We don't get independents or in our case "no part affiliation". Mostly because R's and D's get the voter mailing lists free. Other parties must pay for it. What we get is a couple D's running for say governor. Most of the time you know who will win it. This year it's actually close, but both leaders are decent. Then you get a field of R's running and we have a couple bat sh!t crazy people that could win. I'll happily vote for anyone but them just to send a message.
 
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