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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Let's see, the Omnibus Appropriations bill, introduced a couple of days ago, is over 1.9K pages of pork, Obamacare™ was 2K+ pages rammed through on short notice ("We must pass it to see what's all in it" :-@ ), the financial reform bill was nearly 2K pages passed on short notice, etc.

One can very easily hide some really, really nasty 'Easter eggs' in such piles of gibberish and *NOBODY KNEW WHAT WAS ALL IN THEM WHEN THEY WERE VOTED ON!*

:r:

Mike

Are you telling me that your city council has read every page of your 350 page zoning ordinance? Or every page of your general plan before vote? I can guarantee they read an executive session prepared by their administrators (planners) and vote accordingly. Often times, the City Council has seen the item for only a week or two. It may have been in committee (commission) for months beforehand. Everyone in a political position has to vote based on their understanding of the details as prepared by aids and administrators.
 
Down with the system! Down with the system! We need a revolution!!! Pour the tea in the harbor!!! Someone must die for this!!!!!

And today is indeed the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party.

I say, more simple solutions to complex problems!
 
I still find it funny that the whole conseverative base is screaming mad about our deficit and how we can't provide umemployment benfits to those who will directly spend those checks and pump money back into the economy because we need to "pay for it somehow with a cut"...

yet...

We are "ok" with continuing the current bush era tax rates with no "cut" in other services to pay for it.

So which is it teabaggers? You can't have your cake and eat it too, but then again, this logic seems to escape the average 'merican.
 
Yeah!

I still find it funny that the whole conseverative base is screaming mad about our deficit and how we can't provide umemployment benfits to those who will directly spend those checks and pump money back into the economy because we need to "pay for it somehow with a cut"...

yet...

We are "ok" with continuing the current bush era tax rates with no "cut" in other services to pay for it.

So which is it teabaggers? You can't have your cake and eat it too, but then again, this logic seems to escape the average 'merican.

CPSURaf, while not so great at fantasy football:eek:|, is a quick learner on the political front:science:.
 
I still find it funny that the whole conseverative base is screaming mad about our deficit and how we can't provide umemployment benfits to those who will directly spend those checks and pump money back into the economy because we need to "pay for it somehow with a cut"...

yet...

We are "ok" with continuing the current bush era tax rates with no "cut" in other services to pay for it.

So which is it teabaggers? You can't have your cake and eat it too, but then again, this logic seems to escape the average 'merican.

No they want to cut, just only the programs they don't care about. The Bush Tax cuts show a deep divide between the Republican base. Either you care about the debt or you care about the lower taxes mantra. In this case, they also have to deal with the Obama Factor. Although the plan involves keeping the tax rates, you have to agree with Obama, which is against their core belief system.

I think if we cared about the deficit we would follow the deficit commission's ideas... but that seems to just make everyone mad... which is why it is a good thing.
 
Basically it all comes down to my political views being right and yours are wrong... ;)
 
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Basically it all comes down to my political views being right and yours are wrong... ;)

And I won't accept your views no matter how you rationalize them or how much support data you provide. I'm still right and you're wrong.
 
And I won't accept your views no matter how you rationalize them or how much support data you provide. I'm still right and you're wrong.

Except the Bible says you're wrong, so even in the event that you have data and facts, Jesus wins.
 
You guys just don't get it.

I KNOW what is best for the country and your views are dragging this vision through the mud.

Of course, if you come over to MY SIDE, you see how beautiful it all can be.
 
If any of you have watched Jon Stewart over the last couple nights. He has been blasting the republicans for trumpeting their unwavering love for 9/11 first responders then not passing the First Repsonders Medical Bill act because the "front door" issue is tax cuts for the rich.

I'm not going to get into his entire argument because you can see it on hulu.com. He stated that none of the news organizations has barely even mentioned this except for the 22 minutes of coverage al Jezzera put on the issue - yes the same al Jezzera that (as JS put it) Osama binLaden sends mix tapes to. He continued that there was more news coverage of the Beatles songs being available on iTunes than on this.
 
If any of you have watched Jon Stewart over the last couple nights. He has been blasting the republicans for trumpeting their unwavering love for 9/11 first responders then not passing the First Repsonders Medical Bill act because the "front door" issue is tax cuts for the rich.

I'm not going to get into his entire argument because you can see it on hulu.com. He stated that none of the news organizations has barely even mentioned this except for the 22 minutes of coverage al Jezzera put on the issue - yes the same al Jezzera that (as JS put it) Osama binLaden sends mix tapes to. He continued that there was more news coverage of the Beatles songs being available on iTunes than on this.

I like how he said that they can't use 9/11 anymore in their arguments. It is amazing to me how you could vote no for that bill. We give our veteran's (whether it be war or service) the benefits they deserve. These men and women risked their lives to save others. Sure it was their job, but many went above and beyond the call of duty. I think it is extremely stupid to say that the benefits that could be provided to them are a waste of money.

As long as R's don't use 9/11 as a talking point anymore, I think that I can understand their side. If they still use it, then they are not only being hypocritical, but just plain stupid.
 
This could be a debatable point. IMHO, I think that more should be offered to help our Vets upon their return, at least in mental health care.

I wasn't stating that we give them enough, just that we should be giving them what they need. I agree with you that we are just doing the minimum on the war veteran side as well. But if that bill came up in congress I am sure that the R's would not be voting no.
 
I don't want to get into a flame war, but is anyone else tired of hearing non-stop about the military and veterans? I understand and appreciate the sacrifice members gave in war but it seems like everything we do has a military aspect to it. I am not bashing the military or soldiers. I am not bashing America. In fact, my two best friends from high school are now are army reserve and active duty army, so I know what they do. Is it just me that notices this?

On a lighter side, we often joke the military is the last resort for poor or undisciplined teenagers but then we praise the sacrifice soldiers have made. Which is it - did they join because they were poor with no other options or did they join to make America better and give back?
 
On a lighter side, we often joke the military is the last resort for poor or undisciplined teenagers but then we praise the sacrifice soldiers have made. Which is it - did they join because they were poor with no other options or did they join to make America better and give back?

I get what you're saying. For a lot of people, they join the military for less than purely altruistic reasons. My BIL is a Marine who decided to be a Marine for his own personal reasons, not because he wanted to defend the country per se.
 
I don't want to get into a flame war, but is anyone else tired of hearing non-stop about the military and veterans? I understand and appreciate the sacrifice members gave in war but it seems like everything we do has a military aspect to it. I am not bashing the military or soldiers. I am not bashing America. In fact, my two best friends from high school are now are army reserve and active duty army, so I know what they do. Is it just me that notices this?

On a lighter side, we often joke the military is the last resort for poor or undisciplined teenagers but then we praise the sacrifice soldiers have made. Which is it - did they join because they were poor with no other options or did they join to make America better and give back?

I guess my take on it is that regardless of the original motivation (and for many of my peers, it was more personal than about serving the country - especially to help pay for schooling), these folks ARE in harms way and many are coming back traumatized and feeling like outsiders in their own country. This is not because people are treating them that way, but that's just the feeling many have form being in such an intense and alien situation to what we experience here on a daily basis. I felt that way returning from a year in Uganda so I imagine experiences not just a foreign cultural setting, but armed conflict, possible personal loss of friends and colleagues, must be a hundred times more difficult. And this doesn't even address those who have been injured. I just feel like they deserve all the love we can give to help bring them back into the fold regardless of why they went off to do this in the first place.

I have a friend in Iraq right now - married, two kids who are friends with my kids - and we communicate a lot. I just feel he can really use the support. He's got about 6 more months.

Recently, I was boarding a plane over the T-day break and this young woman in uniform was patiently waiting to board in her group (Southwest flight) which was a ways down the list. At some point, the agent at the gate says "honey, you know if you are in uniform, you can board anytime" and the whole crowd erupted in applause and support. It was very moving. I'm a little teary just thinking about it.
 
. He has been blasting the republicans for trumpeting their unwavering love for 9/11 first responders then not passing the First Repsonders Medical Bill act because the "front door" issue is tax cuts for the rich.

.

Even after the tax cut deal was announced the GOP fillibustered the bill. It was deficit neutral but they argued we can't afford it. There really was no legitimate reason to do fillibuster the bill except maybe if you hate America.

I'd like to ask the resident republicans on cyburbia why the GOP hates America?
 
Even after the tax cut deal was announced the GOP fillibustered the bill. It was deficit neutral but they argued we can't afford it. There really was no legitimate reason to do fillibuster the bill except maybe if you hate America.

I'd like to ask the resident republicans on cyburbia why the GOP hates America?

They don't. They hate that, in order to secure the tax deal, President Obama included as a condition of his support what amount to an over-$600 billion dollar spending package beyond the $400-some-odd billion dollars that was/is estimated to be kept out of government coffers by extending the Bush tax rates another two years. So, while it may have come across the books as deficit neutral, it was not cost-neutral. Agree with it or not, think the GOP is full of crap or not, whatever - that's the argument, and standing on its own (i.e. without looking at who's presenting it) it does have some merit.
 
They don't. They hate that, in order to secure the tax deal, President Obama included as a condition of his support what amount to an over-$600 billion dollar spending package beyond the $400-some-odd billion dollars that was/is estimated to be kept out of government coffers by extending the Bush tax rates another two years. So, while it may have come across the books as deficit neutral, it was not cost-neutral. Agree with it or not, think the GOP is full of crap or not, whatever - that's the argument, and standing on its own (i.e. without looking at who's presenting it) it does have some merit.

I have no idea what you are talking about

Edit: Seriously. I have no idea.
 
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http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...mmer?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d02463cd58cfa18,0

Whether this argument is dated or not may be at issue, but this seems to be a prevailing attitude even if realities have changed.

I have no idea what Charles Krautenhammer is talking about. Seriously.

He says tax cuts are good but this tax cut deal is bad because it adds 1 trillion to the deficit? He is making no sense at all and I see zero relation between that any the GOP fillibustering help for 911 heros.



Edit: Seriously. I don't understand. Am I losing my mind or is the entire GOP making zero sense at all. Or more likely, are both occuring?
 
I have no idea what Charles Krautenhammer is talking about. Seriously.

He says tax cuts are good but this tax cut deal is bad because it adds 1 trillion to the deficit? He is making no sense at all and I see zero relation between that any the GOP fillibustering help for 911 heros.



Edit: Seriously. I don't understand. Am I losing my mind or is the entire GOP making zero sense at all. Or more likely, are both occuring?

I don't think you're losing your mind. The GOP, while adamantly anti-tax and pro-deficit/debt reduction, has a difficult time figuring out WHEN is an appropriate time to draw a line in the sand. But this is what happens when you govern by absolutes. You come across looking ridiculous. Both to others, and even those within your own party.

(and I'm not saying the Dems don't do this, but rather the GOP does this with the anti-tax, debt-reduction conflict)
 
The key phrase from the Krauthammer article is this:

Obama got the Republicans to offer to increase spending and cut taxes by $990 billion over two years — $630 billion of it above and beyond extension of the Bush tax cuts.

Emphasis added.
 
I don't want to get into a flame war, but is anyone else tired of hearing non-stop about the military and veterans? I understand and appreciate the sacrifice members gave in war but it seems like everything we do has a military aspect to it. I am not bashing the military or soldiers. I am not bashing America. In fact, my two best friends from high school are now are army reserve and active duty army, so I know what they do. Is it just me that notices this?

Actually, you are noticing something important. Being a Vet, I can speak easily. Yes I got a patch on my right and left shoulder. Vets are an unusually whiny bunch. Second maybe only to Farmers or Retirees. But just because they are whiny, does not mean that they should not have service related medical issues taken care of.

Part of the issue is something the Byzantine Empire was the very first to understand. Your soldiers will be much more effective if they are going to believe they will get the proper medical attention society can offer if they are harmed. Now in 800 ad Anatolia, that meant battlefield care if possible and care to return them to ambulatory if possible. Today we know much more about what war does to people.

You don't go to war and remain unchanged. You would probably be an existing sociopath if you did. If affects everyone different. The modern promise is that if you go to war and are harmed, our society is duty bound to spend the funds to treat you. If you were to remove that promise, no amount of recruiting could make up for the deficit of positions in the ranks you would have to fill.

We are all complicit in these wars like it or not. If a soldier needs treatment, they should get it before we buy shiny new planes and tanks. Its part of the deal.

On a lighter side, we often joke the military is the last resort for poor or undisciplined teenagers but then we praise the sacrifice soldiers have made. Which is it - did they join because they were poor with no other options or did they join to make America better and give back?

Your answer to both questions is YES!

You see, you have the officer corp. They make and implement policy. At the small unit level, the lieutenants and the Captain manage the enlisted personnel.

The enlisted personnel are split in two. The NCO's actually run the small unit. These are your sargents. These people generally represent people who have reached a level of discipline where they have "bought in" to the military way of thinking. This usually happens after 4 to 6 years. This buy in represents a completely different way of thinking than civilians.

The true "enlisted" soldiers are privates, and full bird privates (otherwise known as specialist 4th class). These soldiers are in the armed services for all kinds of reasons. More than you could list. Some are smart (like geniuses or something), some are dumber than stumps, and everything in between. They are more civilian than military. It is the job of the NCO to teach military methods and indoctrinate these new soldiers into being real soldiers. The NCO's get the policy from the officers and make changes accordingly.

This indoctrination and the compulsory discipline work to make knuckleheads and future geniuses alike into a disciplined fighting force. In the end, the result is the individuals ideas for their future, and the nations desires coincide. Citizen soldiers that will eventually re-enter civilian life and be productive.

Understand this, the conservative ideology of the military is different than the conservative ideology of civilian people in the US. Teabagger stupidity is not the ideology of the US Military.

The US military is a centralized authority with invasive legal powers that limit the individuals rights... For good reason. Somebody has to be the first in and last out. Civilian values are not military values, and do not work in the armed forces.

The military takes the troubled, smart, immigrant, religious, atheist, and all comers. Its not how they come in, its how they turn out!
 
Any thoughts as to why Harry Reid pulled that 1.9K+ page omnibus spending bill from the USSenate yesterday?

Mike
 
The key phrase from the Krauthammer article is this:



Emphasis added.

I gotta admit, TxOk, I can't identify the relationship between the article you posted and the 9/11 responders bill. I've read that bill cover to cover and can't find a single thing that should cause anyone, regardless of lean, any concern.

Linky to the bill text

Even Huckabee has said every Republican should vote for it. (I know some discount the Huff Post, but it was just a convenient text link. You can watch the video yourself if you want.
 
I gotta admit, TxOk, I can't identify the relationship between the article you posted and the 9/11 responders bill. I've read that bill cover to cover and can't find a single thing that should cause anyone, regardless of lean, any concern.

Linky to the bill text

Even Huckabee has said every Republican should vote for it. (I know some discount the Huff Post, but it was just a convenient text link. You can watch the video yourself if you want.

I posted the link to the article in response to statements about the Bush tax cuts extension bill, not the 9/11 responders bill (unless they're grouped together in one bill, in such case the GOP filibustered for the reason Krauthammer mentioned, not to screw over responders [it would also say something about how to politicize the responders assistance is the Dems lumped it together with the tax deal] - but I thought the two were separated out, in which case I have no idea why the GOP filibustered the responders bill...
 
I think the 9/11 responders bill and now the Obama tax cuts show how Republican's cannot be supportive of anything. Now if there was a substantial relationship between the debt and tax cuts, you could argue that by cutting taxes we are not raising the debt... but we are. You are argue all you want about fiscal responsibility, but tax cuts are not fiscally responsible in relationship to the debt. They never will be. Republican's are mad that Obama wanted some other stuff in the bill. If he removed everything he put in it would still be less than that of the Bush Tax cuts. If we wanted to deal with the debt, we would not be keeping the tax rates or any other benefits in the bill....

I think this shows very clearly how having a talking point cannot answer the substantial questions that our country requires having answered. I can only picture Palin dealing with this... "we will cut taxes and not allow those socialists to let our debt go up!!!"..... ugh.

====================

On another note... the DADT passed finally... the best part is who voted for it...

The Senate vote was 65-31, with eight Republicans—Scott Brown of Massachusetts, Richard Burr of North Carolina, Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine, John Ensign of Nevada, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Mark Kirk of Illinois and George Voinovich of Ohio—voting "yes."

So you are telling me that 31 people in the senate are so old and backwards that they actually voted against equality in the Armed Forces? I love that I am sure those 8 Republican's are going to be grilled for voting yes... until history shows that they were on the right side of this. 77% of Americans believe that gays and lesbians should be able to serve openly... it is only time before the old and crazy religious get out of the 1800's and our country will have equal protection for all sexual preferences. I am happy that it will happen in my lifetime, and that my kids will not know a world that has such stupid and obvious bigotry.
 
I posted the link to the article in response to statements about the Bush tax cuts extension bill, not the 9/11 responders bill (unless they're grouped together in one bill, in such case the GOP filibustered for the reason Krauthammer mentioned, not to screw over responders [it would also say something about how to politicize the responders assistance is the Dems lumped it together with the tax deal] - but I thought the two were separated out, in which case I have no idea why the GOP filibustered the responders bill...

You posted the article in response to statements about the 911 bill.

In any case, I also don't understand where Krathammer gets that 630 billion number from or what on earth he is talkig about? The tax cut bill includes 60 billion for unemployment. Everything else is tax cuts.
 
[OT]Do You Trust This Rabbit?

Friends of Santa Claus has a new attack ad out against the Easter Bunny.

(This is off-topic, yet it's not off-topic. Happy holidays!)[/OT]

P.S. I took the conversation y'all were having the about the 9/11 responders bill and added another branch to it, semi-going off on a tangent in the process. My apologies.
 
[OT]Do You Trust This Rabbit?

Friends of Santa Claus has a new attack ad out against the Easter Bunny.

(This is off-topic, yet it's not off-topic. Happy holidays!)[/OT]

P.S. I took the conversation y'all were having the about the 9/11 responders bill and added another branch to it, semi-going off on a tangent in the process. My apologies.

Since we are off the topic of 911 responders now, could you explain to me what Krautenhammer is talking about by that extra 630 billion above and beyond the Bush tax cuts? I don't follow
 
Michael Barone has an interesting article in the National Review today suggesting that, with the recent election results and general attitudes of the electorate, there may be a truce in the so-called "Culture Wars".


Also, imaplanner: The Obama compromise went beyond the expected loss in tax revenue by keeping the Bush cuts in place. Krauthammer pointed out that while many of the provisions of the extra loss in revenue was more concentrated tax cuts and credits, there was some spending increases as well and all of it combined ultimately accounted for $630 billion beyond the projected tax revenue loss by maintaining the Bush rates.
 
Also, imaplanner: The Obama compromise went beyond the expected loss in tax revenue by keeping the Bush cuts in place. Krauthammer pointed out that while many of the provisions of the extra loss in revenue was more concentrated tax cuts and credits, there was some spending increases as well and all of it combined ultimately accounted for $630 billion beyond the projected tax revenue loss by maintaining the Bush rates.

That's what he said, but I find no evidence of it being true. What else was in the deal besides extension of unemployment at about 80 billion, and payroll tax cuts at about 112 billion? Am I missing something? Because those don't equal 630.
 
That's what he said, but I find no evidence of it being true. What else was in the deal besides extension of unemployment at about 80 billion, and payroll tax cuts at about 112 billion? Am I missing something? Because those don't equal 630.

Adjusting the alternative minimum tax designed to prevent approx. 21 million households from being pushed into higher brackets.

Cutting the estate tax from 45% to 35% and increasing the exemption value from a $3.5 cutoff to a $5 million cutoff.

Obama also had a big wish list of spending and tax cut priorities he leveraged, which included a lot of new subsidies for various businesses, students, and solar providers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/business/economy/08leonhardt.html?_r=1
 
With the start of a new year and the swearing in of oodles of new and retread legislators, governors and so forth - and the continuing and deepening deep financial doo-doo that many states and localities are finding themselves in - what can we reasonably expect with regards to fixing those budget problems?

Service cuts, layoffs, tax rate increases, taking steps to improve private-sector business climates to grow tax bases, etc?

^o)

I'm also wondering when and where we might see the first state decertify a public employee union.

Mike
 
I'm also wondering when and where we might see the first state decertify a public employee union.

Mike

Yes. I too read the weekly standards wish list for states to declare bankruptcy and decertify unions, including completely getting rid of all guaranteed public pensions. Pretty sick stuff if you ask me. :-@
 
Yes. I too read the weekly standards wish list for states to declare bankruptcy and decertify unions, including completely getting rid of all guaranteed public pensions. Pretty sick stuff if you ask me. :-@
[tired cliché]Well, if the money isn't there....[/tired cliché]

Mike
 
This is what happens when you make promises that you can't keep...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47124.html

Just hours after taking control of the House, Republicans passed a sweeping set of rules promising transparency and reform.

But the new majority is already showing these promises aren't exactly set in stone.

It isn't surprising, but this is what annoys me about the party that isn't in power. They make all kinds of promises, that they never intend to keep. The healthcare repeal bill is just like any other bill... put it through the process you promised to use. You said you were going to have more transparency by posting committee attendance lists - do it. Are you really afraid of people finding out that most of the time you don't show up?

It is things like this that make the R party fail. If you are going to use the slogan "this is what the American people..." then do what you promised the American people. You were elected on those promises. No number of times you waste legislative time reading the Constitution for political points will that change who you really are.

===================

On a separate note - Michelle Bachmann considering a run for president is like Lindsay Lohan running for President of the Christian Coalition. There is no chance in hell of her winning, but it will be funny and sad to watch. (I believe I might think Michelle Bachmann is worse than Sarah Palin... at this point I am not sure).
 
===================

On a separate note - Michelle Bachmann considering a run for president is like Lindsay Lohan running for President of the Christian Coalition. There is no chance in hell of her winning, but it will be funny and sad to watch. (I believe I might think Michelle Bachmann is worse than Sarah Palin... at this point I am not sure).

Come on, we all want to see them both run. The gaffs and sound bites will be priceless. I may actually watch a presidential debate. Maybe they can bring an animal on the stage and shoot it-on live TV. It would be great. Maybe have Christine O'Donald(sp) and Sharon Angle join them on stage. Have Jon Stewart moderate it.


I really want to see how far right they can push the R's. The downside, given their supporters, it will make the town hall sessions we had to endure for HCR look like a quilting bee.:-c
 
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What would it take to get a Palin/Bachmann ticket in 2012?

Not too much... which is really what I am scared of. I know they have no shot at winning, but the fact that our country would even give them one vote just shows that we are all about talking points and not on substance.

I hope that we begin to find sanity again in the next year with a R house and D senate. I am not holding my breath.
 
Ha ha ha......

What a bunch of HOT AIR......

TEA-POCRISY TIME:

Report: House GOP's Constitution Reading Could Cost Over $1 Million
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...itution-reading-could-cost-over-1-million.php

The Sarcasm is strong with this one, my favorite quote:
"Wow, that sure does sound wasteful. If only the citizens of this country could get mobilized to oppose it -- maybe by holding massive rallies to decry it as being unconstitutional government waste. Who knows, perhaps they could even co-opt some massive action from Revolutionary days to be their symbol."
 
Come on, we all want to see them both run. The gaffs and sound bites will be priceless. I may actually watch a presidential debate.

I can not stand Palin and I really do not think she is attractive at all, unlike apparantly most of America. Now Bachman on the other hand, she's a hotty.
 
What a bunch of HOT AIR......

TEA-POCRISY TIME:

Report: House GOP's Constitution Reading Could Cost Over $1 Million
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...itution-reading-could-cost-over-1-million.php

The Sarcasm is strong with this one, my favorite quote:
"Wow, that sure does sound wasteful. If only the citizens of this country could get mobilized to oppose it -- maybe by holding massive rallies to decry it as being unconstitutional government waste. Who knows, perhaps they could even co-opt some massive action from Revolutionary days to be their symbol."

Just more posturing and political threatre. What would be fun is to see how each member actually follows the Constitution in both word and spirit.
 
Yes. I too read the weekly standards wish list for states to declare bankruptcy and decertify unions, including completely getting rid of all guaranteed public pensions. Pretty sick stuff if you ask me. :-@

Any state that does that will then only be able to hire the dregs of the available public employees. Not to mention they might have a few employees like me, who will tally up what is owed to me, and go take it from some state source. If you steal my retirement, expect me to steal it back.
 
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