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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

What happened to that sign that was sitting on the front of the desk of a previous Democrat president, I think that it said "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"? Looks like those now in power have yet to find it and put it back into its proper place.

Had those security breaches happened under Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, etc, heads would have rolled by now - literally. Instead, we are getting the equivalent of "move along, nothing to see here...".

:-@

Mike

Unless you would ask our president to break international law, nothing different would have happened. The Justice Department is looking into the matter, and if there are legal issues that they can deal with... they will. Why wouldn't they?

I am sure Reagan would have sent the secret service to England or Sweden, or Australia to find him by now...:r:
 
What happened to that sign that was sitting on the front of the desk of a previous Democrat president, I think that it said "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"? Looks like those now in power have yet to find it and put it back into its proper place.

Had those security breaches happened under Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, etc, heads would have rolled by now - literally. Instead, we are getting the equivalent of "move along, nothing to see here...".

:-@

Mike

Security breaches such as Wikileaks weren't possible under these administrations.
 
Security breaches such as Wikileaks weren't possible under these administrations.

Indeed. In their day, security breaches were piddly things like attacks on US military bases in Hawaii, missiles being stationed in Cuba, walls and blockades being put up across half of Europe, spy planes being shot down, proxy wars, etc.

We blow everything out of proportion these days. Should the Wikileaks deal have been avoided? Sure. Could it have? Maybe, maybe not. The Army private who provided the info had passed his security clearances. Last I checked, they also have guy apprehended and facing a court-martial, so he will most likely be adequately punished. Did it reveal anything? Not really. Is US security truly breached? Probably not.
 
Indeed. In their day, security breaches were piddly things like attacks on US military bases in Hawaii, missiles being stationed in Cuba, walls and blockades being put up across half of Europe, spy planes being shot down, proxy wars, etc.

We blow everything out of proportion these days. Should the Wikileaks deal have been avoided? Sure. Could it have? Maybe, maybe not. The Army private who provided the info had passed his security clearances. Last I checked, they also have guy apprehended and facing a court-martial, so he will most likely be adequately punished. Did it reveal anything? Not really. Is US security truly breached? Probably not.

I think the wikileaks thing is actually a pretty big deal. It is certainly making world leaders angry at each other and at this Julian Assange guy. What I find interesting is that now that he has embarrased world leaders AND exposed many of their undiplomatic and illegal activities, there is now an international manhunt for the guy based on a charge that he did not stop having sex with a woman after the condom broke. HOw many people who are accused of such a thing get an international warrant issued for their arrest? The global corporatocracy is going to get him, and I suspect he will have an "accident".
 
I think the wikileaks thing is actually a pretty big deal. It is certainly making world leaders angry at each other and at this Julian Assange guy. What I find interesting is that now that he has embarrased world leaders AND exposed many of their undiplomatic and illegal activities, there is now an international manhunt for the guy based on a charge that he did not stop having sex with a woman after the condom broke. HOw many people who are accused of such a thing get an international warrant issued for their arrest? The global corporatocracy is going to get him, and I suspect he will have an "accident".

To which undiplomatic and illegal activities are you referring? This is only embarrassing for the United States State Department, nothing more. Every embassy and foreign ministry in the world issues similar memos and cables and marks them "secret" because they're honest and/or upfront about their intelligence or intuition. Luckily none of the memos discovered thus far have given up anything, intelligence-related, that will impact our foreign operations. The world seems after Assange in order to prevent future embarrassments for other governments and to avoid him actually coming across something that is damaging, since he seems to have no qualms about releasing any such information should he get his hands on it. The guy does have the potential to be dangerous, even if his actions to date have not ultimately been such.
 
Sooo......

If they are providing "secret" data and information to 3 million peons via the internet, how secret could it be?
 
To which undiplomatic and illegal activities are you referring? This is only embarrassing for the United States State Department, nothing more. .

Bribery, computer hacking, espionage, torture, illegal arms transfers, plots to kill citizens - including successful plots. The leaks are about much more than just the US State Department. Other countries come off being worse than us, but our leaders still have engaged in criminal activities as evidenced by the leaks. Unfortunately, the media is not publishing much of them and wikileaks website is spotty now that the world powers are after them.
 
honestly, how is this any different from the pentagon papers?

Does this expose the US to be two-faced? Sure, but seriously, it reminds me of a quote from the great Steven Segal movie Under Siege 2: Dark Territory (sad i remember this one too):

"Guangzhou is a chemical weapons plant masquerading as a fertilizer plant. We know this. The Chinese know that we know. But we make-believe that we don't know and the Chinese make-believe that they believe that we don't know, but know that we know. Everybody knows."

laugh now..
 
honestly, how is this any different from the pentagon papers?

Does this expose the US to be two-faced? Sure, but seriously, it reminds me of a quote from the great Steven Segal movie Under Siege 2: Dark Territory (sad i remember this one too):

"Guangzhou is a chemical weapons plant masquerading as a fertilizer plant. We know this. The Chinese know that we know. But we make-believe that we don't know and the Chinese make-believe that they believe that we don't know, but know that we know. Everybody knows."

laugh now..


I'm not so sure that these leaks are that significant in terms of national security, but they sure do expose world leaders as two-faced charlatans. Really tells you that alot of what is "top secret" is to protect individuals from accountability by their public, rather than to protect the security of nation-states.
 
What happened to that sign that was sitting on the front of the desk of a previous Democrat president, I think that it said "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"? Looks like those now in power have yet to find it and put it back into its proper place.

Had those security breaches happened under Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, etc, heads would have rolled by now - literally. Instead, we are getting the equivalent of "move along, nothing to see here...".

:-@

Mike

What do you suggest we do, blackbag him? Disappear him into the desert southwest or the Alaskan interior. We are not the only ones who are affected by this or are going after him.
 
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Your all missing the real point.

Yes "they" are after mr. Assange, however, the Wikileaks team split into two organizations a couple of months back. This happened because Mr. A is a DxxK!

Even if Wikileaks is taken down, there is a sister organization up and running to take its place.

Disgruntled and disillusioned employees happen. Stopping them from retaliating will always be hard. On top of that, we really don't need as much material secret as has been created. More professionalism out of our diplomatic corp would have gone a long way to mute any embarrassment.
 
Agreed

Your all missing the real point.

Yes "they" are after mr. Assange, however, the Wikileaks team split into two organizations a couple of months back. This happened because Mr. A is a DxxK!

Even if Wikileaks is taken down, there is a sister organization up and running to take its place.

Disgruntled and disillusioned employees happen. Stopping them from retaliating will always be hard. On top of that, we really don't need as much material secret as has been created. More professionalism out of our diplomatic corp would have gone a long way to mute any embarrassment.

For as difficult as they make it to be a diplomat these days, you would think they would be more professional. Me thinks the US State Department has jumped the shark in many respects since 9/11. :not:
 
Could you kindly tell me what you would have him do? Thank you in advance.

I think expecting our president to hunt down Julian Assange personally, and killing him on Dancing with the Stars isn't too much to ask... is it? I mean he isn't doing anything right now anyways with all this gridlock caused by him... :r: Boo to random, no-fact based attacks... boo.
 
What, exactly, makes knowing the wrongdoings of politicians and powerful people and corporations a disaster? :r:
 
Why would the GOP want to get rid of Obama? He cave ins more than a West Virginia coal mine.

I hope the senate and house have the balls to stop the silly tax break legislation he caved in to. Silly! let it expire and go back after the middle class tax cuts in the spring.
 
Why would the GOP want to get rid of Obama? He cave ins more than a West Virginia coal mine.

I hope the senate and house have the balls to stop the silly tax break legislation he caved in to. Silly! let it expire and go back after the middle class tax cuts in the spring.


Polls show 75% of Americans favor letting tax cuts for the rich expire. Even a majority of republicans. Yet Obama's "compromise" is to let the GOP get everything they want. Nobody is that stupid, and I find it hard to believe Obama is that much of a wussy. I think he has sold out to the corporatocratists. Its been obvious for some time.
 
Polls show 75% of Americans favor letting tax cuts for the rich expire. Even a majority of republicans. Yet Obama's "compromise" is to let the GOP get everything they want. Nobody is that stupid, and I find it hard to believe Obama is that much of a wussy. I think he has sold out to the corporatocratists. Its been obvious for some time.

*gasp*

Politicians get to Washington and... and... sell out?! Say it ain't so, Joe! :not:
 
All of this would be pointless if we went to an easy-to-understand flat tax. No more exemptions, no more loopholes, no more complexity. You earn X, you're taxed 25%. You earn Y, you're taxed 25%.

Or, no income tax and a straight federal sales tax on everything but medicine.
 
All of this would be pointless if we went to an easy-to-understand flat tax. No more exemptions, no more loopholes, no more complexity. You earn X, you're taxed 25%. You earn Y, you're taxed 25%.

Or, no income tax and a straight federal sales tax on everything but medicine.

Don't go getting all logical on us. This thread is about politics... :D
 
*gasp*

Politicians get to Washington and... and... sell out?! Say it ain't so, Joe! :not:


There is compromise... there is getting what you can get out of a deal after a real fight... and there is full blown collapse that should leave a defeated leader ashamed of them-self.

This guy caves in and then starts to negotiate from a position of weakness. :-@ When there is absolutely no reason to do so. :-{

I know that I am likely to have to work a few extra years before SS kicks in. I would be ok with that. I got nothing better to do. What I won't do is work for extra years so some jacka$$ can make extra millions while I have to work longer for them to do so. Freakin idiotic baby boomers.

Poor rich people. They only had a 300% after tax wage increase in the last 30 years while everyone else stayed almost flat.

The guilded ages are back, this time the peasants will have more than pitchforks & torches.

By all means, make political deals. Don't go to Washington and forget the people that brought you to the dance.

Any other democrat than Obama in 12'!
 
Or, no income tax and a straight federal sales tax on everything but medicine.

The general argument against this is that it would be terribly regressive. Those taxes on basic goods and services would impact poor people much more than the rich. This is based on the assumption that these goods and services cost as much for poor people as rich people (but that the taxes hit poor folks harder because they have less and now they will spend most of it just on food and clothing and other basic needs). True, you can get some pretty fancy milk if you want, but generally speaking, there is not one price for "rich folks' milk" and another for poor peoples'. For a car or a house or many other items, there is a cheaper and a luxury model and you can buy the one that fits your budget. But for the basics, its pretty much the same cost to all of us.

The result of regressive taxation is that it widens the income gap. Currently, the US has the widest income gap in the industrialized world and its getting bigger and bigger. Especially if we don't let the Bush tax cuts expire on the highest earners.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907321.shtml
 
The general argument against this is that it would be terribly regressive. Those taxes on basic goods and services would impact poor people much more than the rich. This is based on the assumption that these goods and services cost as much for poor people as rich people (but that the taxes hit poor folks harder because they have less and now they will spend most of it just on food and clothing and other basic needs).

There is nothing that says life needs to be perfectly fair - that's why my boss drives a nicer car than I do and I drive a nicer car than the receptionist. But we all have reliable cars, so is anyone really hurting from the band-name differences? Maybe I'm just stubborn but if we are talking about trying to make things equal than nothing is better than a number we all must follow, regardless of who we are as individuals. If the point is that it is regressive, why doesn't milk cost less for poor people? Why doesn't the gov't impose taxes based on who is buying the milk? Because you'd have massive fraud, the same way you do with the current tax system. Maybe a flat tax wouldn't be the most progressive system but it would eliminate fraud.

We often hear (especially from the planner-types, myself included) about raising the fuel tax. Isn't this the exact situation you've described as regressive? People all pay for the same fuel, whether they make 20K or 200K? There is no name-brand fuel.
 
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There is nothing that says life needs to be perfectly fair - that's why my boss drives a nicer car than I do and I drive a nicer car than the receptionist. But we all have reliable cars, so is anyone really hurting from the band-name differences? Maybe I'm just stubborn but if we are talking about trying to make things equal than nothing is better than a number we all must follow, regardless of who we are as individuals. If the point is that it is regressive, why doesn't milk cost less for poor people? Why doesn't the gov't impose taxes based on who is buying the milk? Because you'd have massive fraud, the same way you do with the current tax system. Maybe a flat tax wouldn't be the most progressive system but it would eliminate fraud.

We often hear (especially from the planner-types, myself included) about raising the fuel tax. Isn't this the exact situation you've described as regressive? People all pay for the same fuel, whether they make 20K or 200K? There is no name-brand fuel.

I lean "left" and I couldn't agree more. In theory, a federal sales tax (with certain exemptions) should make people more conscience about what they are buying. Screw this income tax crap. Tax me on my actual economic contributions to the machine, not on what I make. If I choose to live a frugal life and purchase only "cheap" products, I should be rewarded.
 
The general argument against this is that it would be terribly regressive. Those taxes on basic goods and services would impact poor people much more than the rich. This is based on the assumption that these goods and services cost as much for poor people as rich people (but that the taxes hit poor folks harder because they have less and now they will spend most of it just on food and clothing and other basic needs). True, you can get some pretty fancy milk if you want, but generally speaking, there is not one price for "rich folks' milk" and another for poor peoples'. For a car or a house or many other items, there is a cheaper and a luxury model and you can buy the one that fits your budget. But for the basics, its pretty much the same cost to all of us.
Instead of trying to parse differences between this and that kind of product, why not simply exempt spending up to the poverty level from the sales tax? The oft-discussed 'fairtax' proposal contains such a clause (monthly tax rebates).

The thing that I don't at all like about the (so called) 'flat' tax is that it is still an income tax and you still have:
-intrusive forms to fill out and file;
-all of the political pressures to exempt this or that 'worthy' cause from the tax; and
-all of the 'fun' measuring and determining exactly what is and is not 'income'.

The result of regressive taxation is that it widens the income gap. Currently, the US has the widest income gap in the industrialized world and its getting bigger and bigger. Especially if we don't let the Bush tax cuts expire on the highest earners.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907321.shtml
Well, who defines who is 'rich' and who is not? And then, high tax rates at upper ends punishes exactly that which we want to encourage, that being innovation, success, job creation, etc. Hammering the job-creating class with confiscatory tax rates only results in less economic activity and fewer jobs. (Note, for those who try to tell me otherwise, ALL investors want a certain level of *after tax* return on their investments and if more of those earnings are seized by the government, costs will have to be cut elsewhere in order to make up that difference - and what is the easiest variable cost of all for a business to control? - Labor.)

-------------------

Also, had this current document security fiasco happened under even GWB, high-level heads would have already rolled at both State and Defense. Instead, we have what can be likened to as being little more than a herd of deer staring at a set of oncoming headlights.

<sigh...>

Mike
 
Well, who defines who is 'rich' and who is not? And then, high tax rates at upper ends punishes exactly that which we want to encourage, that being innovation, success, job creation, etc. Hammering the job-creating class with confiscatory tax rates only results in less economic activity and fewer jobs. (Note, for those who try to tell me otherwise, ALL investors want a certain level of *after tax* return on their investments and if more of those earnings are seized by the government, costs will have to be cut elsewhere in order to make up that difference - and what is the easiest variable cost of all for a business to control? - Labor.)

-------------------

Also, had this current document security fiasco happened under even GWB, high-level heads would have already rolled at both State and Defense. Instead, we have what can be likened to as being little more than a herd of deer staring at a set of oncoming headlights.

<sigh...>

Mike

The problem is that on the upper end did not create jobs-except for maids and groundskeepers and overseas. The Bush tax cuts proved the falacity that if you allow the upper income people to keep more of their money, they will invest it. The only people who invest are the small business owners. They create jobs and keep the money local. The wealthy do not. This has been proved time and time again.

Again, what you have Obama do-blackbag him and bring the guy before a star chamber. Getting misty-eyed for W and his 8 year fiasco is scary.:-c8-!:wall:

<sigh>
 
There is nothing that says life needs to be perfectly fair - that's why my boss drives a nicer car than I do and I drive a nicer car than the receptionist. But we all have reliable cars, so is anyone really hurting from the band-name differences? Maybe I'm just stubborn but if we are talking about trying to make things equal than nothing is better than a number we all must follow, regardless of who we are as individuals. If the point is that it is regressive, why doesn't milk cost less for poor people? Why doesn't the gov't impose taxes based on who is buying the milk? Because you'd have massive fraud, the same way you do with the current tax system. Maybe a flat tax wouldn't be the most progressive system but it would eliminate fraud.

We often hear (especially from the planner-types, myself included) about raising the fuel tax. Isn't this the exact situation you've described as regressive? People all pay for the same fuel, whether they make 20K or 200K? There is no name-brand fuel.

You misunderstand and are actually trying to conflate equal access to equal outcomes. Nobody is arguing for equal outcomes. People and the viability of our system in fact, require that everybody get an equal shot at trying to achieve. There is a big difference.

The disparity in the growth of incomes between wealthy and something else is growing disproportionately. That is proof that they classic American system is in huge trouble. Nobody thinks you can guarantee outcomes. It should not be hard to devise a system where people have access to the tools that will allow them a shot at achieving and a net for them when they fail. That net allows them to take another crack at it.
 
Well, who defines who is 'rich' and who is not? And then, high tax rates at upper ends punishes exactly that which we want to encourage, that being innovation, success, job creation, etc. Hammering the job-creating class with confiscatory tax rates only results in less economic activity and fewer jobs. (Note, for those who try to tell me otherwise, ALL investors want a certain level of *after tax* return on their investments and if more of those earnings are seized by the government, costs will have to be cut elsewhere in order to make up that difference - and what is the easiest variable cost of all for a business to control? - Labor.)

I think this is the kind of argument that kills the rationale for the Fair Tax. We need to give up the Top Down economic strategy. It hasn't proven to work any better than Keynesian Theory. We should be looking at a more balanced tax system to simplify and even out our tax structure. People need to be accountable for their lifestyles. The system shouldn't be regressive, but it should require some buy in from every income class.

btrage said:
Tax me on my actual economic contributions to the machine, not on what I make. If I choose to live a frugal life and purchase only "cheap" products, I should be rewarded.

I could not agree more. We should be encouraging saving and investing. We should be encouraging people to make sound fiscal decisions in their lives. We should be encouraging people to better understand the financial system in which we live. If you make people pay for what they buy (and only for what they buy), capitalism will work much better. You now can make choices based on the market.

Also, had this current document security fiasco happened under even GWB, high-level heads would have already rolled at both State and Defense. Instead, we have what can be likened to as being little more than a herd of deer staring at a set of oncoming headlights.

<sigh...>

Mike

See I was on board with your comments dealing with taxation, then you go out to lala land again. Dick Chaney might have illegally asked Blackwater to kill people, but I doubt President Bush would have done much more than the Obama Administration is currently doing. Mr. Assange has been taken into custody in England, so we will see how the International Community deals with him. My guess is that Wikileaks will continue without their CEO.

This isn't about any one government, it is about how we deal with information. That isn't the President's fault. Let's get back on taxes, as it seems we can have a reasonable argument about that...:r:
 
And then, high tax rates at upper ends punishes exactly that which we want to encourage, that being innovation, success, job creation, etc. Hammering the job-creating class with confiscatory tax rates only results in less economic activity and fewer jobs. (Note, for those who try to tell me otherwise, ALL investors want a certain level of *after tax* return on their investments and if more of those earnings are seized by the government, costs will have to be cut elsewhere in order to make up that difference - and what is the easiest variable cost of all for a business to control? - Labor.)


Actually, job creating activities and business investment is generally tax exempt. When a business owner or potential "job creator" is faced with a choice between paying taxes or putting the money into their business, they choose the business. When a job creator is faced with a choice between stockpiling the money and reinvesting in their business, they generally choose to stockpile money - especially in this type of economy. Lower taxes for the job creators actually discourages job creation. If we were really serious about creating job in America we would raise taxes on the job creators.
 
Has anyone looked at the FCC's proposed net neutrality regulations (set for a vote by the FCC board on Dec 21) or FCC Commissioner Michael Copps's proposed new broadcasting regulations? Just wondering...
 
Also, had this current document security fiasco happened under even GWB, high-level heads would have already rolled at both State and Defense. Instead, we have what can be likened to as being little more than a herd of deer staring at a set of oncoming headlights.

<sigh...>

Mike


If by high level you mean some of the THREE MILLION PEOPLE THAT HAD ACCESS TO "SECRET" INFORMATION, like privates in the Army and janitors at the State Department, then by all means GW would have had heads rolling:r:

I'm not happy with Obama caving on what should have been the easiest decision of his political career and essentially leaving the "leadership" on taxes to the Richublicans
 
Instead of trying to parse differences between this and that kind of product, why not simply exempt spending up to the poverty level from the sales tax? The oft-discussed 'fairtax' proposal contains such a clause (monthly tax rebates).

I think there are two challenges to this runaround. Firstly, while there may be a government-determined definition of the Poverty Line, it does not address the reality that a) someone earning $5 more than the poverty line isn't, in fact, also poor and that b) the current poverty line is generally agreed to be well below what households actually need to meet basic needs (and so it would have to be revised).

Secondly, a monthly tax rebate, if I understand it correctly, still asks the individual/household to spend the money first. We're talking about food clothing and shelter as your basic class of necessities here and not having the money to begin with (to buy a $12 loaf of bread) means not being able to feed, clothe or house yourself and your family. That's pretty serious.

This all sounds an awful lot like my Cafeteria Health Spending Plan which is annoying as heck, even though I save about 25 percent on health related purchases. Saving the receipts, going through the book to determine what is allowable and what is not, keeping track of what has been taken out so far - oh, is that a child care or health expense?, those are two separate accounts so one has to be careful! Its all a bit too much.

I think the tax code needs to be revised, but I am happy to pay my taxes and I think a flat tax would benefit the rich far more than the poor.

Well, who defines who is 'rich' and who is not? And then, high tax rates at upper ends punishes exactly that which we want to encourage, that being innovation, success, job creation, etc. Hammering the job-creating class with confiscatory tax rates only results in less economic activity and fewer jobs. (Note, for those who try to tell me otherwise, ALL investors want a certain level of *after tax* return on their investments and if more of those earnings are seized by the government, costs will have to be cut elsewhere in order to make up that difference - and what is the easiest variable cost of all for a business to control? - Labor.)

It really doesn't matter what you define as rich and poor when you are measuring the differential between the two. The point in economics when measuring income gaps is looking at the distribution of income along the continuum from those who make the most to those who make the least. To be stable (politically and economically) you want a lot of folks in the middle. What we are seeing now is a very strong trend (and again, more than any other industrialized nation) toward a small cluster at the high end, few in the middle, and the largest cluster at the low end. This distribution makes for an unstable economic and political environment and is bad for the nation as a whole. IMHO

As far as job creation, the "expected" after tax profits of a given class of people or business owners is a shifting target. When times are good, people expect higher profit, when times are bad, they expect less. The main thing, economically, is that these folks want to leverage their wealth to make more. So, even if the tax burden is higher this year than a few years back, the incentive to use what profit and excess remains to make more remains. Keeping it under the mattress will not make more money. In fact, many would argue that smaller profits (but still profits nonetheless) are just the kind of incentives needed to spur further innovation. If you can' t influence the tax code, focus on modes of production.

I have a hard time seeing the wealthy just sitting on their money and pouting because the tax rate went up. I expect them to fight it and try and convince the rest of us to get on board, but giving up trying to make money is not a likely scenario to me. There will be bitching, but there will also be innovation.

Labor costs are only one of the factors that industry manipulates to keep costs down or increase profit. Materials (getting them cheaper or finding better, more affordable ones), units produced over time (might not have to do with more or cheaper labor, but just better equipment), innovation in terms of effectiveness of products and how quickly you can get them into production, etc. all play a role. I think this argument that suddenly these big corporations are going to start laying people off the day after tax filings is a red herring.

Remember, we are not INCREASING taxes on the wealthy, we are RESTORING the tax rate that existed when the TEMPORARY (and stated so at the time) Bush tax cuts were established. I don't think any wealthy person who pays any attention to money could have been under the impression that the Bush deal was intended to be permanent. Would they like it to be? sure, but there was no suggestion made that it would be from the get go, so I really don't get what all the brew haha is about. :-{

We are a consumer based society and all this focus on the wealthy "job creators" overlooks the fact that we also need a middle class with extra cash to buy all this stuff. They are also the job creators - they create the demand for the products and services. This idea that the wealthy will grace us with more jobs if we give them more back in taxes tends to obscure the nature of this exchange. We all need to come up together and there is no doubt that the wealthy have been building their money bags much quicker than anyone else in the nation. That will serve them poorly in the long run as well as demand for consumer goods declines.
 
I'm not happy with Obama caving on what should have been the easiest decision of his political career and essentially leaving the "leadership" on taxes to the Richublicans

Who knows whether the dems will go along with his deal- BUT extending for two years means this issue comes up again during the run up to the next presidential election. Should be interesting
 
Nobody is arguing for equal outcomes. People and the viability of our system in fact, require that everybody get an equal shot at trying to achieve.

If you're not arguing for equal outcomes than if we tax all earnings at 25%(or whatever number) the tax is fair and the outcomes are based on your personal situation in life, how much you earn, etc. Based on this post we are arguing for the same thing - that we can't guarantee equal outcomes so we guarantee what we can control - equal taxation. You make more = you pay more.
 
If you're not arguing for equal outcomes than if we tax all earnings at 25%(or whatever number) the tax is fair and the outcomes are based on your personal situation in life, how much you earn, etc. Based on this post we are arguing for the same thing - that we can't guarantee equal outcomes so we guarantee what we can control - equal taxation. You make more = you pay more.

Yes, but people will argue it isn't fair you make $1million dollars and "only" pay 25%. That isn't "equal" to the 25% the guy that makes $30k is paying - even though numerically it is. The point is always that unless a tax system tiers its rates it will be considered regressive because those who make less can't do as much as those who make more.

TexanOkie said:
Has anyone looked at the FCC's proposed net neutrality regulations (set for a vote by the FCC board on Dec 21) or FCC Commissioner Michael Copps's proposed new broadcasting regulations? Just wondering...

I have not seen the exact proposal, but I have seen lots of random drafts. I have trouble with the FCC. I don't believe that censorship of much of anything is appropriate. Boobs and curse words are part of the real world. I don't want my kid seeing or using those words, but they exist. To me the FCC acts as a parent. If you are a good parent, you don't let your kid watch boobs or say curse words. I don't need the FCC to make that happen. When it comes to the internet the FCC doesn't currently have any power over it. The new "net neutrality" rules can give them authority over something they don't need authority over. I agree that Verizon and Comcast shouldn't be tiering service, but in the end, that is a business decision. Either we consider communication companies utilities (which we basically do now) and give them the ability to skirt most regulation, or we consider them private companies and require them to do the same things we require any other business to do. My issue is that in most areas you don't have an option to use another company. That is a monopoly in my opinion and should be regulated tightly.

I have not seen the broadcasting regulations. Anyone have any PDFs for either?
 
Labor costs are only one of the factors that industry manipulates to keep costs Remember, we are not INCREASING taxes on the wealthy, we are RESTORING the tax rate that existed when the TEMPORARY (and stated so at the time) Bush tax cuts were established. I don't think any wealthy person who pays any attention to money could have been under the impression that the Bush deal was intended to be permanent. Would they like it to be? sure, but there was no suggestion made that it would be from the get go, so I really don't get what all the brew haha is about. :-{

As I recall, they were sold as temporary in order to get the votes. Once passed, Bush, Inc always intended to make them permanent. They tried to make them permanent before they left office.
 
As I recall, they were sold as temporary in order to get the votes. Once passed, Bush, Inc always intended to make them permanent. They tried to make them permanent before they left office.

In a slight shift of topic, wouldn't it be wise to give every major piece of legislation a sunset clause? It would keep programs that work working better and would get rid of those that don't. It would also focus Congress on important issues at hand and avoid small-scale, petty distractions.
 
In a slight shift of topic, wouldn't it be wise to give every major piece of legislation a sunset clause? It would keep programs that work working better and would get rid of those that don't. It would also focus Congress on important issues at hand and avoid small-scale, petty distractions.

I agree wholeheartily. I guess there are Christmas miracles, you and I agree on something politically.:D Seriously, I appreciate your opinions, tho I don't always agree with them. They are well thought out and presented. You and just come from different perspectives.
 
As I recall, they were sold as temporary in order to get the votes. Once passed, Bush, Inc always intended to make them permanent. They tried to make them permanent before they left office.

It was passed under Reconciliation rules and so, yes, the concern was that they did not have the votes (they would have needed more than 60). But isn't that at the core of the issue? That not enough of our elected officials felt the plan was sound?

Regardless of what the hopes were about making the cuts permanent, everyone paying attention had to realize that there was a possibility that they would expire and so this all should come as no surprise.

I feel the rhetoric around the act's extension suggests that the current structure has been in place for a long time and so people have become accustomed to the current low taxes and so allowing them to expire would cause havoc on the expected profits of the wealthy who will now hide under the covers counting their money. My point is simply that they were stated as temporary in the first place and that now that the date of expiration is arriving, we should not cry foul like it is some unexpected shock to the system.
 
Yes, but people will argue it isn't fair you make $1million dollars and "only" pay 25%. That isn't "equal" to the 25% the guy that makes $30k is paying - even though numerically it is. The point is always that unless a tax system tiers its rates it will be considered regressive because those who make less can't do as much as those who make more.

There are the same people who never let facts get in the way of emotion! Here's the problem - I am a theorist and not a realist. Those people "only" pay 250K in taxes vs 7500 in taxes for the people listed, but a lot more people earn less so doing what they want earns more votes than what's doing what's numerically fair. That's why I hate politics - people buy votes and do what is emotionally more appealing.

Off topic slightly, but this is the reason the US will eventually go the way of Europe - more people voting who want things and less people voting who fund them. Politicians let emotions get in the way of true economic equality.
 
In a slight shift of topic, wouldn't it be wise to give every major piece of legislation a sunset clause? It would keep programs that work working better and would get rid of those that don't. It would also focus Congress on important issues at hand and avoid small-scale, petty distractions.

My brother has a similar proposal - that all programs administered by the government be created with real, measurable evaluation components. After some period of time, the data is reviewed and changes made, or programs scrapped once we can prove whether they are or are not fulfilling their stated goals. I do this kind of thing on a regular basis at my job because it is required from my granters. Perhaps the US public should be seen more as granters and demand regular reports on programs' proven effectiveness. making the necessary changes to improve or scrapping altogether.

We spend an awful lot of time in politics arguing about whether this or that program actually works or is just a money vortex. This would be a way to prove impact for the greatest good and it really shouldn't be that hard.
 
How about taxation based on political affiliation or lack thereof?

Republican - Flat Tax
Democrat - Graduated Tax
Libertarian - No taxes, no services
Independent, Socialist, non-voter, resident alien, etc. - Pick one of the above, but that registers you with that party permanently for taxation only, no voting privileges.
 
There are the same people who never let facts get in the way of emotion! Here's the problem - I am a theorist and not a realist. Those people "only" pay 250K in taxes vs 7500 in taxes for the people listed, but a lot more people earn less so doing what they want earns more votes than what's doing what's numerically fair. That's why I hate politics - people buy votes and do what is emotionally more appealing.

Off topic slightly, but this is the reason the US will eventually go the way of Europe - more people voting who want things and less people voting who fund them. Politicians let emotions get in the way of true economic equality.

Actually, the high earners get substantially more benefit out of the government than do the low earners.
 
Actually, the high earners get substantially more benefit out of the government than do the low earners.

What are these substantial benefits that high earners get that lower earners do not get? Do rich people have more kids that go to schools or have higher use of police and fire? Or do they drive on the roads more than lower earners?

If you are arguing about government giving wealthy more perks (capital gains relief, estate tax relief, etc.), that is one thing, but the wealthy do not use more services from the government than anyone else. If wealthy people send their kids to private school they actually use less and still pay for the service they don't use.
 
What are these substantial benefits that high earners get that lower earners do not get? Do rich people have more kids that go to schools or have higher use of police and fire? Or do they drive on the roads more than lower earners?

If you are arguing about government giving wealthy more perks (capital gains relief, estate tax relief, etc.), that is one thing, but the wealthy do not use more services from the government than anyone else. If wealthy people send their kids to private school they actually use less and still pay for the service they don't use.

He must be referring to federal policies like trade protection, financial markets, etc. Basically things the government provides or protects that wealthier people or businesses use. Is this correct?

The reason it's a bad argument is that no one is stopping less wealthy from using those services or benefiting from the policies. So capital gains taxes are lower (they wouldn't be with a flat tax because it's income). It's like saying Highway Helpers benefit truckers more than because they are on the highway more than you or I. Sure, maybe they help truckers, but no one is stopping you from using the services if you decided to drive on the roads all day.
 
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