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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

As for federal employees, sure, the top echelon should be making $100K or whatever is appropriate depending on how much work they do or responsibility they have, but people are routinely making ridiculous amounts in lower-level jobs. And don't give me the cost-of-living line. I've seen regular planning jobs in the DC area at the local level for only $30K or $40K, so the equivalents that work for Uncle Sam should be paid the same.

"

When data comparing job requirements and educational/experience requirements are factored in, federal workers on average make less than their private sector counterparts. All of the data which says otherwise compares ALL private sector workers (burger flippers, custodians, etc) with ALL federal workers. An apples and oranges comparison.

Yet the heart of your post, seems to be that wages in general are too high. You would prefer that federal wages be cut - bringing ALL middle class salaries down, rather than to prefer that private sector middle class wages be increased.
 
Cut what programs? Cut what agencies? The Park Service, which is always a favorite conservative. Cut the EPA, another favorite target of the conservatives? The DEA, the FBI, FEMA, DHS, where does the knife go? Keep in mind that we've had 2 disasters recently that resulted from little regulation or enforcement. Conservative/TEA Partiers like to talk about cutting the Federal Government for two reasons. One, they don't have to provide details. Second, it weakens enforcement of regulations they find onerous, but protect the people. Heavens, it might cut into their profit margin.

As for pay federal government employees, again a nice buzz concept that requires little details. But darn if it doesn't sound good and fans the fear/loathing of people who don't understand how government works. I've interviewed in places where I couldn't afford to live-Naperville, Birmingham, MI. COLA is a very real problem in certian areas. DC is an incredibly expensive place to live. I interviewed in the DC/Virginia area before. The people who work there, live in Pennsylvania.:-c

Well, first of all, any new or additional spending for any agency has to stop. Second of all, you are right that we have existing worthy programs that are necessary, but if all those agencies tighten their budgets a little bit, it would help things a lot. When almost every private sector employer and local government is having to make cuts here and there and stretch things, along with almost every American, it's only fair that the federal government does the same. But a lot of the spending comes from entitlement programs and defense spending, which need serious reform. As for specifics, I'm sorry, I don't have the answers for you on what needs to be cut, but if we want to reduce the deficit while succeeding at getting out of a recession, something has to be cut. I'm not a congressman, but hopefully they will come up with some solutions and proposals. Whatever the case, there are going to be unhappy people no matter what they do.

As for cost-of-living, yes, there are more expensive areas to live in than others. But there are usually more affordable areas within these metros that are close by, but you just have to look. For example, you mentioned Naperville. Well did you ever consider living in a more affordable home in nearby Montgomery or Aurora? Same goes for the other metros...there are more affordable parts of metro Washington and metro Detroit that are still nice areas.

When data comparing job requirements and educational/experience requirements are factored in, federal workers on average make less than their private sector counterparts. All of the data which says otherwise compares ALL private sector workers (burger flippers, custodians, etc) with ALL federal workers. An apples and oranges comparison.

Yet the heart of your post, seems to be that wages in general are too high. You would prefer that federal wages be cut - bringing ALL middle class salaries down, rather than to prefer that private sector middle class wages be increased.

I just think that federal wages should be on par with their private sector counterparts. Or maybe with their local/state government counterparts.

I think it would be great if all middle class wages were higher, but I just think that when you're dealing with taxpayer money, federal employees need to be paid fair market value for their work.
 
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... But a lot of the spending comes from entitlement programs and defense spending, which need serious reform...

Finally, there's something we can really agree on. The military-industrial complex is, in my opinion, uniquely culpable in our current debt crisis. Unfortunately defense spending is one of those third rails that no one wants to seriously consider for fear of being labeled "weak." If anything good comes out of the Tea Party contingent of the incoming Congress it will be a serious look at the unnecessarily bloated defense budget.

...Same goes for the other metros...there are more affordable parts of metro Washington and metro Detroit that are still nice areas.

Please point me to these affordable areas in metro DC. My parents live on a farm on a dirt road an hour out of the city. Going rent for a crappy 2-bedroom/1 ba country cottage in that area is in excess of 1000 dollars/month, which is not exactly what I would consider "affordable". There's a reason people commute from places like Martinsburg VA and it ain't the pretty drive.

Metro Detroit is an entirely different story...
 
I guess we all need to decide what's more important here right now...creating jobs or reducing the deficit. To create jobs, you have to give businesses some incentive to do so. And I don't think that incentive will be raising taxes. To reduce the deficit, you either have to raise taxes or cut spending. So, as a result, the only option to do both appears to be to cut taxes or at the very least not let the tax cuts expire in order to create an investment for businesses to create jobs, while cutting spending to work at reducing the deficit.

Well, we could also cut spending AND raise taxes!:D

I think this is a very fair assessment of the dilemma with regards to taxes, job growth and the deficit. Well said.

In general, I feel the government's job is to manage the budget and perform its functions within that. Its the private sector's role to create jobs. However, as I mentioned in another post, market fluctuations can create situations that even the most uncompromising Free Marketer might agree requires government intervention. I also feel there are some areas where the market is not well-equipped to provide services because the profit motive undermines the need to provide a service that supports the health, safety and welfare of the public (could we privatize traffic lights, for example? What would be the incentive for business to provide that service? Probably best to leave that one up to the government...)

Overall, my personal opinion is that people want to make money. And the rich especially want to make money as the devaluation of just keeping it under the mattress (where it enjoys no interest) is very unattractive. So, tapping into that creative, entrepreneurial spirit, I would imagine that even with paying more in taxes, the rich will continue to spend and invest in business growth to both enjoy the perks of wealth and generate more of it in the future.

It makes me think about my kids when they ask for something like candy and I won't let them. They scream and cry and pitch a fit, but after a while, they find a way to move on and, amazingly, have a fun productive time without it.


The main thing that costs so much money is entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, and thanks to the aging population, so the amount of money that needs to be paid out is only going to continue to increase year after year unless something is done to reform these systems. I think it's unfair to punish the younger generations to pay for the mistakes of the older generations that created this flawed system in the 60s.

And what is especially galling is that Social Security SHOULD be the money that generation already paid in that just comes back to them later as if it were sitting in a piggy bank. But the reality, it would seem (though nobody seems to be able to give a straight answer on the logic of all of this) is that they already spent this money. So now, the younger generations beginning to pay into it may have to foot a good deal of the bill with no guarantee that it will be there for them either.

Its like the parents telling little Johnny that they raided his piggy bank, never refilled it, and now they're out of money. But that's ok, Jimmy can just get his kids to put money in their piggy banks and he can raid them to cover the shortfall. And on and on it goes...

One thing that's interesting to point out is that Bush took 8 years to increase the U.S. annual budget by a trillion dollars (and that included a recession, 9/11, two wars, Katrina, a market collapse, etc.), while Obama is on track to increase it another trillion in only 3 years. That's unacceptable, and we need to hold the line of federal government growth unless they have a way to pay for it.

Well, I have been trying to move myself away from the blame game on topics like this. In my opinion, we are comparing apples and oranges. The situation today requires a different set of actions and government response than the realities that Bush faced. Plus, given the pace at which economic response rolls out in reaction to policies and changing circumstances would suggest that much of the foundation for the current mess was laid prior to Obama's taking office. Some would say prior to Bush as well. But again, playing the blame game is not very constructive in addressing our current woes.

The current situation is dire and has/will require some dramatic actions. I'm not entirely comfortable with it either, but I fear the alternative.
 
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Another day... another plan to save us money...

http://bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FINAL DRTF EXECUTIVE SUMMARY_0.pdf

Although this one looks to save $6trillion by 2020 ($84 trillion by 2040). My favorite part...

Policymakers cannot solve the debt crisis simply by eliminating congressional earmarks (less than one percent of the discretionary budget) or foreign aid, which is less than one percent of the total budget.

Nor can policymakers significantly reduce the debt by eliminating "waste, fraud, and abuse," although they surely should undertake efforts to eliminate as much waste, fraud, and abuse as possible.

Nor can policymakers realistically solve the problem simply by cutting domestic discretionary spending. Stabilizing the debt by 2020 through domestic discretionary cuts alone would require eliminating nearly all such spending – everything from law enforcement and border security to education and food and drug inspection.

Nor can policymakers rely on hopes of a strong economy to "grow our way out of the deficit." Just to stabilize the debt at 60 percent of GDP, the economy would have to grow at a sustained rate of more than 6 percent per year for at least the next ten years. The economy has never grown by more than 4.4 percent in any decade since World War II.

Nor can policymakers solve the problem simply by raising taxes on wealthy Americans. Reducing deficits to manageable levels by the end of the decade though tax increases on the most well-to-do Americans would require raising the top two bracket rates to 86 percent and 91 percent (from the current 33- and 35-percent rates).

There are no easy answers, no quick fixes. Following is a bipartisan, fair and reasonable plan that calls for reforms to every part of the budget and the participation of all Americans to restore America's future for our children and grandchildren.

*note: the meat of it starts on page 17 of the pdf...
 
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If by "awhile ago" you mean early 20th century, yes, you're correct ;) The Air Force and Army were actually one entity a while ago too...

Indeed, the Department of Labor was under the Commerce Department for a total of ten years - 1903 to 1913. I imagine there was a reason for splitting the two, but I really don't know what that was.

Totally OT:
My father was in the Air Force in 1957 during the birth of the space program. There was no NASA at the time so it was all parked under the AF. Anyway, my father, having recently graduated form veterinary school, was sent to then French Cameroon to bring back the 24 chimps from whom they chose Ham who became the first primate in space.

Probably a good thing that they split NASA off into its own entity. Space exploration and military prowess should not share the same priorities IMO.
 
I just think that federal wages should be on par with their private sector counterparts. Or maybe with their local/state government counterparts.
.


Do that and I (and several other public sector planners) will be getting a raise. COOL!

I've worked in the public and private sectors (which also had several federal contracts and looking at their data, I also know what the federal planners were making). Private sector is making more than feds or local govt planners.

All of us need to do a little more independent research from several sources. Do not base facts on what Fox and MSNBC tells us. Also as my 'nut loving friend hink pointed out, there is not a magic bullet or two out there that will fix today's issue. Just like most thinkgs in the world, it will take a multi-point approach WHICH MEANS our elected masterminds neec to quit postering, pointing fingers and playing partisan games. They need to get to a long term solution. You will never please everybody, we are too diverse. Unfortunatley they all look for quick fixes so they can be re-elected.
 
The logic still doesn't work out for me - how does seizing wealth from the job creators through higher taxation create more private-sector jobs? With less wealth on hand after the IRS is done, that's less available to hire and pay employees.

:r:

Mike
 
The logic still doesn't work out for me - how does seizing wealth from the job creators through higher taxation create more private-sector jobs? With less wealth on hand after the IRS is done, that's less available to hire and pay employees.

:r:

Mike

Like I said before- an argument can be made that higher taxes increases job growth and business investment. Wealth on hand that is used for hiring and paying employees is tax deductible. Meaning that the wealth that is taxed is NOT used for business investment and job creation. So the argument that taxing the wealthy hurts job creation is just plain false.
 
Is the Tea Party unduly influencing the voting on Dancing with the Stars?

(Tall slender elegant graceful Brandy was voted off tonight. Chub-face Bristol Palin, still on.)

Coming up shortly on All Things Considered:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129541964

[Jennifer] Grey's professional partner, Derek Hough, didn't hide his surprise at Brandy's dismissal: His jaw dropped.

The Internet has been abuzz in recent days about how Palin, who has consistently landed at the bottom of the judges' leaderboard, has been able to remain on the show. Some have suggested that voters — particularly supporters of Sarah Palin — have been voting in blocs and manipulating the system.
 
Coming up shortly on All Things Considered:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129541964

[Jennifer] Grey's professional partner, Derek Hough, didn't hide his surprise at Brandy's dismissal: His jaw dropped.

The Internet has been abuzz in recent days about how Palin, who has consistently landed at the bottom of the judges' leaderboard, has been able to remain on the show. Some have suggested that voters — particularly supporters of Sarah Palin — have been voting in blocs and manipulating the system.

I still think it should be called Dancing with Random D-listers that no one cares about now... I hope that this ends the horrible show. :-{
 
Private sector is making more than feds or local govt planners.

Not across the board (at least for feds vs. private sector in the environmental planning realm)...but the private sector generally does make more than local govt folks.
 
Speaking of Palin and 2012...

I was watching Hannity last night, where Sean had Newt Gingrich on as a guest. Newt was appearing live from Ames, IA, where he was doing a book signing at Iowa State. I have a friend attending grad school out there who met him earlier in the evening. During the interview, Hannity made mention of how Newt appeared to coincidentally be making the rounds in Iowa, as he was headed to Cedar Rapids the next day. Hannity asked him if he was heading to New Hampshire and South Carolina next. Gingrich said something along the lines of he'll get to those places eventually. He definitely was beating around the bush, but I think he'll run. He has been very critical of Obama, and he maintains a very active schedule, so I think he will definitely be running. Now, at the moment, I'm torn between him and Palin. While we still have 2 more years yet, the primaries begin in only a little over a year from now.
 
Social Darwinism.....

"Republicans are still spouting nutty Social Darwinism. Cutting taxes on the rich is better than helping the unemployed, they say, because the rich will create jobs with their extra money while giving money to the unemployed reduces their desire to look for work.

Rubbish. The Bush tax cuts on the top never trickled down. Between 2002 and 2007 the median wage dropped, adjusted for inflation. And job growth was pathetic.

Jobless benefits don’t deter the unemployed from finding work. In most states, unemployment benefits are a fraction of former wages. And as long as unemployment remains sky-high, there are no jobs to be had anyway." Robert Reich

http://robertreich.org/post/1601480347
 
Not across the board (at least for feds vs. private sector in the environmental planning realm)...but the private sector generally does make more than local govt folks.

The flip side being that (at least in Canada) the medical, dental, sick leave and retirement benefits in the private sector are much less.
 

I don't understand why she is trying to play coy about this. We all know that she wants to run. We all know that she wants to be a superstar *does the hand movement*.

I think most rational republicans (which is my new hope for the party), aren't even going to waste their time with Palin or Gingrich. They actually want to win the election.
 
The flip side being that (at least in Canada) the medical, dental, sick leave and retirement benefits in the private sector are much less.

I thought you guys had universal healthcare? How would medical/dental be any less private vs. public?
 
.....

I just think that federal wages should be on par with their private sector counterparts. Or maybe with their local/state government counterparts.
.........

And there you have a problem. Most government jobs earn LESS than their private side counterparts.

Except for those positions that have no private side counterparts or equivalent position.

The "Government workers are EVIL and make to much money" is a straw man argument. Again, the wrong targets are being identified. It would be more useful to allow unused money by a department to be kept by the department and rolled over year to year. At that point, budgets can be reduced over time to much greater effect.
 
And there you have a problem. Most government jobs earn LESS than their private side counterparts.

Except for those positions that have no private side counterparts or equivalent position.

The "Government workers are EVIL and make to much money" is a straw man argument. Again, the wrong targets are being identified. It would be more useful to allow unused money by a department to be kept by the department and rolled over year to year. At that point, budgets can be reduced over time to much greater effect.

Actually, private sector job salaries have a huge range from the very low end to a high end that has no end. Local government job salaries are generally on the low-middle end depending on the locale. Federal government job salaries usually seem to be consistently in the mid-high range. The problem with the federal government is that the salaries are usually higher, but do all of those people actually do more work then the local or lower-end private sector folks to justify it? That's the problem I have. With private sector, I would imagine the amount of money that's made is dependent on how well the people do their jobs and how much money the company as a whole rakes in, which I think is fair. With federal government jobs, it seems like they are going to be on the high side no matter what. If someone in a fed job making $100K really earns it, that's great. But it's not a good system if you have people in those jobs that are going to be safe in those jobs for political reasons that are making the same amount as a hard-working fed employee but only doing 10% of the work that others making that amount are doing.

IMO, what I should have said is federal employees should generally be making the same amount of money that local government employees are making.
 
Actually, private sector job salaries have a huge range from the very low end to a high end that has no end. Local government job salaries are generally on the low-middle end depending on the locale. Federal government job salaries usually seem to be consistently in the mid-high range.

An interesting point is that well-paid government positions usually demand a high level of educational attainment when compared to their private sector counterparts. For example, many planning positions are requiring master's degrees for entry level planner I positions. An entry level planning position on the private side may only require a bachelors. Also, the private side may offer bonuses and other perks such as company paid office parties, dinners, and other tokens of gratitude. Government tends to not provide bonuses, dinners, paid-for parties or other perks to avoid the perception of lavish or inappropriate use of taxpayer dollars.

What this all boils down to is that the taxpayer demands a highly educated and competent workforce who will generally work for less than the private sector.
 
What this all boils down to is that the taxpayer demands a highly educated and competent workforce who will generally work for less than the private sector.

As well as the right to b!tch about the cost of it all and how it is continually growing out of hand.
 
I thought you guys had universal healthcare? How would medical/dental be any less private vs. public?

Dental, prescription drugs and visioncare* are not covered by public health care.

In the public sector I got 100% employer-paid coverage for those expenses (with some drugs, visioncare and dental procdedures capped/exempted from coverage).

In the private sector, I get 80% employer-paid coverage but I have to pay to receive the coverage (only something like $20/month) and the caps and exemptions are more rigorous (e.g. no vision coverage at all).

I can't believe I'm posting in this thread. Um, uh - American democracy sucks. The only thing worse is all other forms of government ;)

* other than one eye exam every two years
 
......Federal government job salaries usually seem to be consistently in the mid-high range. The problem with the federal government is that the salaries are usually higher, but do all of those people actually do more work then the local or lower-end private sector folks to justify it? .......

Define "do more work".

You are commenting on something you know absolutely nothing about. You are conflating an ideology that all government is bad and higher rates of pay equal waste fraud and abuse. Its a generalization with not a single specific.

So in your example. An MPO run by one person (yes they exist) is a waste of money and the federal employees who ensure rules and regulation requirements on multiple MPO's must therefore be way over paid and massively under worked?

What would be the private side equivalent? How would it be cheaper? If the government positions didn't exist, wouldn't they be the ones to operate the private side insultants? We are talking about high education and skill requirement positions. So how do you come to the conclusion that they have a high educational and skill set they refuse to perform? Whats your proof?
 
Define "do more work".

You are commenting on something you know absolutely nothing about. You are conflating an ideology that all government is bad and higher rates of pay equal waste fraud and abuse. Its a generalization with not a single specific.

So in your example. An MPO run by one person (yes they exist) is a waste of money and the federal employees who ensure rules and regulation requirements on multiple MPO's must therefore be way over paid and massively under worked?

What would be the private side equivalent? How would it be cheaper? If the government positions didn't exist, wouldn't they be the ones to operate the private side insultants? We are talking about high education and skill requirement positions. So how do you come to the conclusion that they have a high educational and skill set they refuse to perform? Whats your proof?

You are getting things all confused and twisting my words around. I am talking about the federal government salaries being high here, not local governments. And in no way did I ever say that all government is bad.

I think it is hard to compare government jobs to private sector jobs, since private sector job salaries generally rely on how well that company does, which usually results from the amount of work put in. With government jobs, the salaries are set at certain levels based on how much tax revenue is received. Local government generally does a better job of living within their means and then cutting when things get bad, while the federal government keeps spending and keeps up the high salaries regardless of the tax situation, which is fiscally irresponsible. I have been searching for jobs for about a year, and federal jobs are definitely higher overall then their local government equivalents, which boggles my mind. If it's the same skill level and the same amount of work expected, I don't know why the huge disparity between federal and local.
 
Freezing all Government Employees Salaries... good idea or bad? What say you?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45673.html


My only issue is that they should be freezing all pay for military as well unless they are on active duty. Having two people working next to each other with different pay doing the same job but because one is military and the other civilian is not right. If you are active I think you are different. If you aren't active, you are a veteran, but a civilian.

=======================

Wow this is a good piece. I am not a huge fan of Joe Scarbourgh, but I think he is very right. As an independent, I would respect where the establishment R's are coming from more if they would just come out and say that Sarah Palin is not going to represent them, and that they are tired of her attempts. They need to stop worrying about getting votes and do what is right for the party. That will get them votes.

Too bad Bloomberg is messing things up in NYC or the Bloomberg/Scarbourgh ticket might have some legs.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45687.html
 
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Gee my government salary has been frozen for over 2 years already. Let's freeze congress salaries and benefits for awhile.

Now that's just crazy talk!
 
I think freezing the pay of federal employees is really only a symbolic move as the amount that it will save is only a teeny tiny portion of the federal budget. But, as a local government employee who has seen his pay decrease over the past two years, it's nice to see a bit of retraction towards parity with counterparts who do similar work and have similar backgrounds at places like HUD or the BEA... even though the still earn significantly more, have significantly better benefits, and comparable (or better) job security.
 
Yet another log to throw on the deflation fire. Now, a freeze on pay for current employees coupled with more direct stimulus or something similar? Sure, that might be ok.
 
Most of the often quoted salary comparisons (including in this thread) ignore that the federal government employs a larger number of doctors than it does burger flippers. tit for tat comparisons don't quite work. I have no problem if a neurosurgeon at the VA or a senior engineer at ACE makes +3x what a 16 yo high school drop out makes. If you want to talk about whether the feds should even be employing those two examples, fine, but I'd think twice before slashing their pay.

Federal pay for the continental US is under the locality system. The locality system does not factor in cost of living and is instead pegged to local wages. This is why federal employees in Houston make a similar amount as those in the Bay Area. DC has high pay because of the strong demand for professionals and Phd types.

I work for the feds and I know for a fact I could make more as a senior planner/project manager in the private sector in this market (Alaska).

Federal pay for professions (landscape architects, NEPA nerds, IT, etc.) tend to be at or below the pre-recession pay scale (I support the wage freeze to rectify this even though this isn't the case in Alaska). I also know that federal and local wages in this market all closely align.

Pay for what are traditionally blue or pink collar jobs are usually higher than in the private sector, and senior management (outside a couple of agencies - to be covered later) are typically underpaid.

The amount of wasted workers you have varies quite a bit from agency to agency. Dept. of Interior was gutted in the late 90s. This means there are a handful of senior LAs/engineers/planners who manage contracts for work that was traditionally done by folks in house. The average LA in the federal gov makes more than the average in the private sector because firms have lots of entry level folks and few project managers. The feds have very few entry level positions (and those are usually project-funded) and then few mid and upper level slots.

On the other side of this is DoD and DHS, both of which have expanded greatly in the past 10 years (most fed employment growth is here) and a disproportionate number of the positions are "SES". SES positions are different than regular fed jobs in that they can be recruited privately (but don't have the same level of job security as GS employees) and are usually paid $150k. Often, they are appointees of sorts.

If the goal is to get the budget under control then we need to talk about all three Third Rails first. If the goal is to reduce the cost of the federal work force then there are quite a few things to do:

I'd start by dumping DHS and gutting DoD. DHS is a failing redundancy. DoD should go back to pre-9/11 levels. If Obamacare sticks I'd scale the VA way back to deal strictly with combat related stuff (shorter term care and not the lifetime care - any medical professionals can handle that).

Then, given the looming boomer retirement, I'd plan to replace 2 out of every 3 positions as they vacate and RIF the empty third slots. That will shrink the workforce by a significant amount but still allow time for organizations to adapt without loosing too much institutional knowledge.

I would also institute an "up or out" policy like they have in the military. You can only serve so many years in one job at the same pay grade before you either must get promoted or you are RIFed. Many federal employees are outstanding but there is too much potential for the LCD to get their foot in the door and then get "tenure" and sit on their asses for 30 years.

I would, overtime, reduce the number of GS-14/15 positions wherever possible. Many of these positions are vital, but some just take up space at way too high a rate of pay. It should come in the form of a thorough audit and not an Angry Mob.

I would appoint myself Czar of Awesomeness and then I'd pimp out Marine One and hit the Gulf Coast for spring break.
 
Transplanner, thanks for responding. Here's a comparison for you.

In the private sector, I get 80% employer-paid coverage but I have to pay to receive the coverage (only something like $20/month) and the caps and exemptions are more rigorous (e.g. no vision coverage at all).

Public Sector: 85% employer-paid coverage, my share is about $220/mo, dental was an extra $15/mo. Vision is included--first job that ever included vision.

btw, you canucks ain't that bad. You gave us curling and poutine.
 
Now this is GOOD government!:-{:-@ Just because a person with a D next to their name comes up with potential legislation, the republicans are going to block it.

As found in Slate magazine:

GOP Senators Pledge to Block All Democratic Legislation

So much for that whole "the American people did not vote for gridlock" thing. Mere hours after President Obama's bipartisan meeting with Congressional leadership, the Associated Press reported that "Senate Republicans intend to block action on virtually all Democratic-backed legislation unrelated to tax cuts and government spending." Those GOP leaders Obama was meeting with had already "quietly collected signatures on a letter pledging to carry out the strategy." That letter, which Steve Benen calls a "hostage plan," was released today, and it signals Republicans' intent to torpedo the DREAM act and a DADT repeal, among other things. All 42 Senate Republicans signed the letter.
 
Now this is GOOD government!:-{:-@ Just because a person with a D next to their name comes up with potential legislation, the republicans are going to block it.

As found in Slate magazine:

GOP Senators Pledge to Block All Democratic Legislation

So much for that whole "the American people did not vote for gridlock" thing. Mere hours after President Obama's bipartisan meeting with Congressional leadership, the Associated Press reported that "Senate Republicans intend to block action on virtually all Democratic-backed legislation unrelated to tax cuts and government spending." Those GOP leaders Obama was meeting with had already "quietly collected signatures on a letter pledging to carry out the strategy." That letter, which Steve Benen calls a "hostage plan," was released today, and it signals Republicans' intent to torpedo the DREAM act and a DADT repeal, among other things. All 42 Senate Republicans signed the letter.

I saw that on Governing today, more short sighted, political bs. What makes it worse, it's not about fundamental issues. Sorry the government is the boogey man hiding under the bed, is not a real issue. This isn't like slavery, civil rights, war, federalism. It's just more poltical bs.
 
My unemployment benefits running out.

:-@:-{:-c:(

Tell us how long they should be good for? Give me a hard number / date.

Two years, five years, ten years? If anyone ever had a job and is not working currently should they get benefits?
 
Tell us how long they should be good for? Give me a hard number / date.

Two years, five years, ten years? If anyone ever had a job and is not working currently should they get benefits?

Since this is the grudge thread, maybe you should answer that in the political thread...:r:

-I still hold a grudge that the year 2000 had to come. Things were pretty sweet in 1999.
 
Tell us how long they should be good for? Give me a hard number / date.

Two years, five years, ten years? If anyone ever had a job and is not working currently should they get benefits?

Good point. I think unemployment benefits are a very important thing, and it certainly makes sense - both from a social and economic standpoint, to increase the time during serious national economic distress, but at some point they need to run out. Take the planning profession for instance, I don't foresee most of those jobs that were lost EVER coming back. That means many laid off planners will need to find other means of employment. Totally sucks, but we need to be realistic. I know some laid off planners who have been collecting unemployment and looking for planning jobs only - but there are none to be had.

Edit: oops. Maybe the mod will move these discussions.
Moderator note:

Maister - The Mod did.
 
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Why does Obama cave in at every opportunity?

How many times does he have to be snubed or slapped in the face before he gets that he is not welcome in the clubhouse?

Why does he have the spine of a jellyfish?

What is it about democrats that make them unable to do what the president won't?

mystified......:not:
 
Why does Obama cave in at every opportunity?

How many times does he have to be snubed or slapped in the face before he gets that he is not welcome in the clubhouse?

Why does he have the spine of a jellyfish?

What is it about democrats that make them unable to do what the president won't?

mystified......:not:

I dunno. He has no spine. Seriously. Did you see the "Modern World" cartoon recently about bipartisanship? The republicans say something along the lines of "If you reach your hand across the aisle we will chop it off with a hacksaw"
 
Good Grief.....

Cave....cave again....cave some more.......agree to cave in......cave on all issues.....cave with the hopes of making friends......cave with the false understanding that you are in control......It worked when Clinton did it, because he had a congress that allowed for some minor concessions to the bills he agreed to pass and many of those bills were drafted with democratic help. Not so this time for Obama, the GOP's only goal is to object to any and everything from the executive branch.

I actually feel a little embarrassed for the president right now:-{ He's getting played on so many levels. Not that I have any love for Federal Employees and their salaries, but the freeze amounts to the smallest drop in the bucket.
 
And yet...

...when the Congressional Republican Party leaders when to pow-wow with BHO in the early discussions about the recently-passed health care disaster, his response to the 'R's thoughts, ideas and proposals was on the lines of a stonefaced "We won." and (to paraphrase) "Get to the back of the bus". He completely blew off and dissed the GOP leadership and thus got zero support from them for that ultimate fiasco in either house. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

So much for 'bi-partisanship' in that crowd.

:r:

And DON'T get me started on their inability to safeguard our nation's most important military and diplomatic secrets - our foreign relations have likely just been wrecked for at least the next generation and many our closest individual foreign friends (the deep-cover covert moles and informants) are now in immediate mortal danger due to the administrations gross incompetence - and some are likely now dead.

:-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@

(We warned you about these immature, Lord of the Flies children before the 2008 election, but the only responses were slap-downs and shut-ups....)

:wall:

Mike
 
...when the Congressional Republican Party leaders when to pow-wow with BHO in the early discussions about the recently-passed health care disaster, his response to the 'R's thoughts, ideas and proposals was on the lines of a stonefaced "We won." and (to paraphrase) "Get to the back of the bus". He completely blew off and dissed the GOP leadership and thus got zero support from them for that ultimate fiasco in either house. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

So much for 'bi-partisanship' in that crowd.

:r:

And DON'T get me started on their inability to safeguard our nation's most important military and diplomatic secrets - our foreign relations have likely just been wrecked for at least the next generation and many our closest individual foreign friends (the deep-cover covert moles and informants) are now in immediate mortal danger due to the administrations gross incompetence - and some are likely now dead.

:-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@

(We warned you about these immature, Lord of the Flies children before the 2008 election, but the only responses were slap-downs and shut-ups....)

:wall:

Mike

Your ignorance continues to show through. So shut up.
 
...

And DON'T get me started on their inability to safeguard our nation's most important military and diplomatic secrets - our foreign relations have likely just been wrecked for at least the next generation and many our closest individual foreign friends (the deep-cover covert moles and informants) are now in immediate mortal danger due to the administrations gross incompetence - and some are likely now dead.

Not even the teabaggiest wingnuts (other than Sarah Palin) are blaming Obama for this. What would John McCain and his undoubtedly tech-savvy advisers have done any different to prevent this?

This is not a political issue. In fact, DHS's integration and consolidation of cross-agency information began during the previous administration as a means of preventing the type of communication problems we experienced surrounding 9/11 and the run up to the Iraq war. Clearly, they haven't gotten it right yet. The tendency of you and your kind to politicize EVERYTHING involving national security is counterproductive, cynical, and pretty damn shameful. Please continue your search for the president's Kenyan birth certificate until you are capable of fact-based discussions.
 
...when the Congressional Republican Party leaders when to pow-wow with BHO... blah, blah, blah...

(We warned you about these immature, Lord of the Flies children before the 2008 election, but the only responses were slap-downs and shut-ups....)

:wall:

Mike

To me this is what I would consider unproductive rambling. If you are just venting, that is fine, but not much of that is based in fact. Personally I blame both sides, and yet I try to assure myself that I don't throw out lobs like this. Instead of creating valid debate over pertinent issues, it just causes angry reactions. Why not let go of the parts that really have no base and at least respect the other side. BHO, Health care disaster, etc. are just silly. How about some respect - President Obama, whether you like it or not, is our president. I don't like a lot of what he is doing, but I respect who he is, because I would expect the same respect for my "perfect" candidate who wins.

Blaming wiki-leaks on anyone other than money seeking federal agents and military personnel and a slimy, sleazy CEO is just sad. I am sure somehow our secrets going out to the world empowers President Obama? It is just sad that these are the arguments that are made against the White House. Why not make rational arguments? There are plenty... :r:
 
(these immature, Lord of the Flies children before the 2008 election, but the only responses were slap-downs and shut-ups....)
Mike


The D's learned how to do this from the absolute masters and perfectors conservative Republicans. Add to this which the D's have refused to do, calling anyone who dares oppose them traitors,unamerican and question their religious faith.
 
...when the Congressional Republican Party leaders when to pow-wow with BHO in the early discussions about the recently-passed health care disaster, his response to the 'R's thoughts, ideas and proposals was on the lines of a stonefaced "We won." and (to paraphrase) "Get to the back of the bus". He completely blew off and dissed the GOP leadership and thus got zero support from them for that ultimate fiasco in either house. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

So much for 'bi-partisanship' in that crowd.

:r:

And DON'T get me started on their inability to safeguard our nation's most important military and diplomatic secrets - our foreign relations have likely just been wrecked for at least the next generation and many our closest individual foreign friends (the deep-cover covert moles and informants) are now in immediate mortal danger due to the administrations gross incompetence - and some are likely now dead.

:-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@ :-@

(We warned you about these immature, Lord of the Flies children before the 2008 election, but the only responses were slap-downs and shut-ups....)

:wall:

Mike


IMO this is a good summary of why our country is in such bad shape. A good portion of the country has no interest in reality or legitimate discussion, just hyper-partisan nonsense.
 
What happened to that sign that was sitting on the front of the desk of a previous Democrat president, I think that it said "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"? Looks like those now in power have yet to find it and put it back into its proper place.

Had those security breaches happened under Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, etc, heads would have rolled by now - literally. Instead, we are getting the equivalent of "move along, nothing to see here...".

:-@

Mike
 
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