Spirituality 🌅 Under the Banner of Ursus (post-Mormon)

[ursus]

Isn't that like a standard feature that's pretty much expected in most Mormon homes? Kinda like having paintings of George Washington in the living room?

It absolutely is. Along with both taco and spaghetti nights. Legendary nights when all the kids were home. You don't want to miss taco night at Chalet Ursus; it's not just a dinner, it's an event.

This weekend I'm going to start my "Under the Banner of Ursus" thread, to get some of the Mormon / Deconstruction stuff out of my head. I hope it's not an uninteresting topic; I know it's not uninteresting to me. Mormon culture and belief and sort of family and community systems are complex, and persistent. I'm no longer in the religion, but boy howdy am I still "mormon" in so many, many ways.

 

[Maister]

It absolutely is. Along with both taco and spaghetti nights. Legendary nights when all the kids were home. You don't want to miss taco night at Chalet Ursus; it's not just a dinner, it's an event.

This weekend I'm going to start my "Under the Banner of Ursus" thread, to get some of the Mormon / Deconstruction stuff out of my head. I hope it's not an uninteresting topic; I know it's not uninteresting to me. Mormon culture and belief and sort of family and community systems are complex, and persistent. I'm no longer in the religion, but boy howdy am I still "mormon" in so many, many ways.

I'm sure you already fully understand there are actually two layers to penetrate: doctrinal - which is relatively easy to cast aside, and cultural - which is, unfortunately, imprinted deeply in our psyche, even on a subconscious level. You've decided to undertake a journey that will span years, not simply make a big decision in a particular moment.

 

[ursus]

Had a lot of mormon friends, some good mormons, others not so much, but the odd cult family lifestyle is always entertaining to us outsiders. All my friends were boy scouts to the point that most troops were just extensions of the church. Set family nights, maybe that was their taco night. Some of the stuff just seemed stepford wife level stuff. Enjoy getting it off your chest and now that you can drink we can go get one next time you're in Phoenix. Even if it's just coffee, which you can now legally drink.

So many things here are things I want to talk about in that thread. The anxiety that ordering coffee gave me, was unreal. Unreal and then I really didn't like it. I don't know how people drink that. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Now, the big step would be alcohol. Scares me, compared to coffee. I'm literally terrified of it because since I was old enough to understand language the message has been not to drink, that drinking is like letting demons into your body, and it's weird (as Maister alludes to below) how deep those things are imprinted. But I might be up for it! Love to see you when I visit Huckleberry in Gilbert, I'll message you.

I'm sure you already fully understand there are actually two layers to penetrate: doctrinal - which is relatively easy to cast aside, and cultural - which is, unfortunately, imprinted deeply in our psyche, even on a subconscious level. You've decided to undertake a journey that will span years, not simply make a big decision in a particular moment.

Spot. On. It's partly why I think I want to do it, and I have no other forum. Doctrine is interesting, but it's really the cultural consequences and implications that interest me most as I watch things unfolding. I have been on the journey full time in my mind for probably ten years. Part time in my mind longer than that. Now outwardly, a few years and many more to go, for sure. And the implications for my family are still kind of unfurling as well. I have wondered for a long time about sharing any of my thoughts on that, mostly culturally because you're all social scientists.

 

[Maister]

So many things here are things I want to talk about in that thread. The anxiety that ordering coffee gave me, was unreal. Unreal and then I really didn't like it. I don't know how people drink that. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Now, the big step would be alcohol. Scares me, compared to coffee. I'm literally terrified of it because since I was old enough to understand language the message has been not to drink, that drinking is like letting demons into your body, and it's weird (as Maister alludes to below) how deep those things are imprinted. But I might be up for it! Love to see you when I visit Huckleberry in Gilbert, I'll message you.


Spot. On. It's partly why I think I want to do it, and I have no other forum. Doctrine is interesting, but it's really the cultural consequences and implications that interest me most as I watch things unfolding. I have been on the journey full time in my mind for probably ten years. Part time in my mind longer than that. Now outwardly, a few years and many more to go, for sure. And the implications for my family are still kind of unfurling as well. I have wondered for a long time about sharing any of my thoughts on that, mostly culturally because you're all social scientists.

I'm half tempted to split off a few posts here and create a 'post-angel Moroni' thread intended to document your journey. Thing is, such a thread would pretty much be driven by you.

 

[ursus]

I'm half tempted to split off a few posts here and create a 'post-angel Moroni' thread intended to document your journey. Thing is, such a thread would pretty much be driven by you.

And yet, totally OK by me. If you split it I'll write in it and see what I can answer. I am good with it.

 

[luckless pedestrian]

Is this the religion with the white pantaloon underwear?

 

[dandy_warhol]

Hello.

 

[DVD]

Is this the religion with the white pantaloon underwear?

Yes, I believe the magic white undies are Mormon.

So big question, have any of your kids gone on their mission? Any kids no longer going on a mission? How do they feel about it?

 

[mendelman]

Is this the religion with the white pantaloon underwear?

 

[ursus]

Yes, I believe the magic white undies are Mormon.

So big question, have any of your kids gone on their mission? Any kids no longer going on a mission? How do they feel about it?

Yes on the undies. Wearing regular underwear has been an adjustment. I really can't wear anything but tee shirts without an undershirt, it feels too weird.

NONE of my kids went on missions (kids still do, just not mine). Actually, none of my kids except my oldest daughter are still in the church. We drifted from being "IN" to "LESS IN" to "ONLY CASUALLY IN" to "NOT REALLY IN" and several "OUT". But no missions, no. No interest in it at all. My oldest daughter is still "LESS IN". They go sometimes, she sometimes wears the underwear (garments, they're called) and sometimes not. Her husband drinks coffee but still thinks of himself as a good member. He's kind of where I was 15 years ago; doubting some of this stuff, but not wanting to appear too much out. There can be, and are, consequences for leaving sometimes.

 

[DVD]

Wearing a t-shirt under shirts is normal for a lot of people. Not me, but a lot of people.

You should talk about the consequence part if you're up to it. I've heard there is trouble, but never specifically how it would impact life.

 

[mendelman]

I've heard there is trouble...

 

[Doohickie]

but never specifically how it would impact life.

My impression is that for Mormons, their congregation is kind of like an extended family, their social circle. To lose that is to be cut off from the group. I know other churches are like that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, @ursus ?

 

[ursus]

My impression is that for Mormons, their congregation is kind of like an extended family, their social circle. To lose that is to be cut off from the group. I know other churches are like that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, @ursus ?

Not wrong at all. A Mormon congregation is called a ward. In the areas of Utah where I grew up, a neighborhood would be dominated by the local ward. The scout troop would correspond to the ward. The kids you knew would all be in the "ward boundaries" wether they were Mormon or not. Collections of wards are called "Stakes" (for the stakes in the tent over Zion). My elementary school boundaries corresponded to two stakes. Literally. To be in and then just out is to lose everyone. Used to be kind of low key shunning. Moms were worried about their kids being "influenced" by kids in a family that left, or was not Mormon.

 

[terraplnr]

I'm becoming good friends with someone who was "ALL IN" as a Mormon until adulthood/parenthood and is now "OUT" - I don't know their story/journey but reading about yours (whatever you want to share) may help me as a friend so thank you. I grew up "all in" as a Catholic but it was easier to drift away since I'd moved to a totally different part of the country where I wasn't socially tied to a church / people tied to a church. Still deconstructing some things.

 

[SlaveToTheGrind]

It absolutely is. Along with both taco and spaghetti nights. Legendary nights when all the kids were home. You don't want to miss taco night at Chalet Ursus; it's not just a dinner, it's an event.

This weekend I'm going to start my "Under the Banner of Ursus" thread, to get some of the Mormon / Deconstruction stuff out of my head. I hope it's not an uninteresting topic; I know it's not uninteresting to me. Mormon culture and belief and sort of family and community systems are complex, and persistent. I'm no longer in the religion, but boy howdy am I still "mormon" in so many, many ways.

Yes, I believe the magic white undies are Mormon.

So big question, have any of your kids gone on their mission? Any kids no longer going on a mission? How do they feel about it?

They are but this can be an discussion itself. The standard age for a mission was 19 for men and 21 for women. Men were 24 months and women 18 months. In 2012, this changed to 18 for men and 19 for women with the length of the mission the same. This caused an immediate surge in missionaries but when looking back from 2023, likely caused more problems and number returned to the previous level. Missions are not required but highly, highly, encouraged.

My theory is that kids (really) just out of high school go on their mission with zero experience living away from home, with someone they may not like, doing things on their own, etc. - basically opposite from their norm. Many kids typically go to college and have this experience and have a far less regimented schedule and freedom to do about anything they want; not so with a mission. If one goes foreign, a whole set of potential factors come into play especially if coming from isolated and culturally homogenous Utah. They are suddenly thrust into a standard of living wherein very few choices they make are their own. The day and week, all two years, is very regimented.

This age change and no life experience has caused a lot of missionaries to come home early due to mental health. This, coupled with information readily available on the internet, has caused many to see things in a different light. In my neighborhood, it is about 50/50 of those of age that go on a mission. My kids that have passed the minimum age have not and will not go, which I am totally fine with that decision.

 

[Maister]

I think to better understand your journey, ursus, it would help for us to understand your 'drift' pattern a bit more. Were there maybe a series of lesser benchmark events that maybe led to a crescendo of NO?

 

[estromberg]

I am an Ordained Minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

[ursus]

I think to better understand your journey, ursus, it would help for us to understand your 'drift' pattern a bit more. Were there maybe a series of lesser benchmark events that maybe led to a crescendo of NO?

I will do it long-form and answer questions along the way. To understand, I think you have to know what it feels like when you believe, when you doubt, when you decide to just get out. Being Mormon is an entire identity. It's not your religion on Sunday, it permeates everything. I mean, you're wearing it, literally, all day every day.

 

[Suburb Repairman]

I'm looking forward to this. I know what my departure from the Church of Christ was like (and ultimately church in general), and that was without the cultural clicks and cliques that come with the LDS. I know what you mean about some of the stuff about influence... I was friends with a mormon kid and we always went to his house. I eventually figured out it was because his mom wanted to keep an eye on us for negative influences. Although she was probably correct to worry about me--I was more of a troublemaker and he was a "good kid."

 

[SlaveToTheGrind]

I'm looking forward to this. I know what my departure from the Church of Christ was like (and ultimately church in general), and that was without the cultural clicks and cliques that come with the LDS. I know what you mean about some of the stuff about influence... I was friends with a mormon kid and we always went to his house. I eventually figured out it was because his mom wanted to keep an eye on us for negative influences. Although she was probably correct to worry about me--I was more of a troublemaker and he was a "good kid."

Yes, the cliques are very present. More so if you live in Morridor (Mormon corridor from southern Idaho to Arizona) as I have lived in and out.

In morridor, you know your neighbors fairly well within the blocks of you congregation "ward" since there is constant association. Not so much outside of since you have no need to associate with your neighbors you do not share a social/religious setting with. Where I lived previously lived, members of the same congregation lived 30 miles away and saw maybe once a week for a few hours. Your day to day association with people, if any, was with non-church members and very limited, too.

I know my parents, in the four places I lived until college, only had a relationship with one neighbor. She was the egg or sugar supply if my mom ran out and my sometimes babysitter. In fact, I visited with him (divorced after we had moved so I did not see her) after the NPC 26 years after we moved and he said my dad was the best neighbor he ever had. I think the reason for lack of non-member neighbor association is twofold: 1) do not share the same beliefs and the church hammers into you that you are in the only true church, and 2) only associate with those of the same belief. Very cult-like tactics. The mormon church fits the BITE model rather well. Perhaps other religions also fit the model but I cannot speak for those.

 

[kjel]

The Portland metro area has a lot of LDS adherents. My oldest's elementary school was across the street from a meetinghouse. I had as many LDS friends as I did Catholic friends growing up. When we were in high school we had a board where all the seniors were going the following year and BYU SLC and BYU Rexburg were very common destinations. One of the best managers I've ever had was LDS, I always appreciated her emphasizing that we must balance work and home and all the extra stuff she did with us was family oriented. Two of her five kids did missions and I know how hard it was on her and them when they were away due to the restrictions on communication.

Not so many LDS in NJ, but they are here. Occasionally we'd get a missionary stopping by the house and there's a Family Search Center a few blocks from my house in Newark.

 

[dw914er]

Not wrong at all. A Mormon congregation is called a ward. In the areas of Utah where I grew up, a neighborhood would be dominated by the local ward. The scout troop would correspond to the ward. The kids you knew would all be in the "ward boundaries" wether they were Mormon or not. Collections of wards are called "Stakes" (for the stakes in the tent over Zion). My elementary school boundaries corresponded to two stakes. Literally. To be in and then just out is to lose everyone. Used to be kind of low key shunning. Moms were worried about their kids being "influenced" by kids in a family that left, or was not Mormon.

Our area has a pretty high concentration of Mormons as they were the group that lead the settlement of the valley. Growing up, at least in middle school, those of us that were not Mormon were not allowed to hang out 1 on 1 with the Mormon kids due to their parents concerns of being a negative "influence."

I'm not sure if it's a broader Mormon stance, or just more of our local community, but they tend to be the most vocal against any multiple family housing. We don't have a large enough population where we see food venues cater to their needs - there is a nearby town that is mostly 7th day Adventist, and that's the only town that I can think of where you see religion play a significant role in the local commercial market.

 

[ursus]

I will forever be grateful to my upbringing as a Mormon kid. I had a wonderful childhood and young adulthood, and even as my wife and I raised our kids. BUT: I had it EASY as a Mormon. For three reasons:

1) I am a male. Not saying that no women are happy in LDS culture, but the culture and doctrine is extremely patriarchal. You're very inculcated growing up, and as has been mentioned already the teachings tend to insulate you, so it takes a long time - sometimes forever - for a girl to realize exactly how kept down she is by the belief system. It's not so bad for a young man, which is a terrible thing, but true. You've got Boy Scouts, you're in the priesthood at 12, all the lessons at church basically tell you that when you mess up and touch yourself it was probably a girl or woman's fault for being immodest (sorry to be graphic, but it is what it is), and that's all the modern church, forget about polygamy: women - multiple women - need you and your priesthood to get into the Kingdom of Heaven and be reunited with God. And your current spouse, if she don't like it when you get there and other women are supposed to marry you - well she just gets in line or gets destroyed. Easy to be a dude in the church (unless you have a conscience.)
I honestly don't know how any woman was ever in or stays in.

2) My community was almost all Mormon. Being LDS just felt natural to me growing up because there were so many other members where I lived. The church does a lot of heavy lifting for a kid in those cases: it creates social situations for you like church dances and activities. It gives you chances to excel (singing, church sports, scouting, etc.) and then praises you, telling you over and over how important you are to God and to your family and to the girl you haven't married yet, etc. It does also create a lot of expectations (or can) that can be heavy, but all in all, you're a little kid, and you learn to sing, to be social (at least with other members) to speak in public, to do well in school, etc.

3) My parents. More than the church, my parents were important in my happy Mormon upbringing. I say this because if I'm being honest, they kept me from having some of the trauma that I have heard others express. My parents were church leaders in our ward (congregation) but there are Mormons, and then there are Mormons. My dad in private talked about the sexism rampant in the church. Didn't like it. Talked about the racism in old church doctrines. Didn't like it. Told us it had to have been wrong, and he would not accept that it could have ever been God's will in any way. Talked about the insular nature of a lot of people in the church, and how wrong that was. They encouraged us to have friendships outside the church, they didn't like how kids in the neighborhood were excluded. And on and on. When you know these things are wrong, but the official doctrine and/or the unofficial policies of the church are still supporting and affirming that those things are NOT wrong, it creates a lot of internal conflict for folks. More on that further in this long process.

NOW, I want to be careful as I do this, but I do want to be honest. I want to be careful because religion and spirituality are delicate and important things, and very much personal in my view. In being honest, the last thing I want is to offend someone's belief or give the impression that I hate religion or the religion I have lived my whole life in. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most Mormons, like any members of a religion, are wonderful people who care about others and want to make the world better and live their best lives. I respect them, and I always will. With that said, I have to be honest in my assessment of the doctrine that underlies some of the wonderful (and not so wonderful) culture that Mormonism created where I live. Sometimes that's not pretty. Typically, as members, I've found we just don't like to really talk about those things much. That won't wash for my Gen Z kids, and so it can't really wash for me. Not anymore. So I'll be honest as we all talk, and hope I'm not offensive. It's interesting stuff.

 

[JNA]

Just because I attended Utah State University does not mean I was or became a Mormon.
I when there for the education & skiing.

 

[SlaveToTheGrind]

Just because I attended Utah State University does not mean I was or became a Mormon.
I when there for the education & skiing.

No shame with USU. I believe I asked you several years ago if you are a "true Aggie."

 

[kjel]

I will forever be grateful to my upbringing as a Mormon kid. I had a wonderful childhood and young adulthood, and even as my wife and I raised our kids. BUT: I had it EASY as a Mormon. For three reasons:

1) I am a male. Not saying that no women are happy in LDS culture, but the culture and doctrine is extremely patriarchal. You're very inculcated growing up, and as has been mentioned already the teachings tend to insulate you, so it takes a long time - sometimes forever - for a girl to realize exactly how kept down she is by the belief system. It's not so bad for a young man, which is a terrible thing, but true. You've got Boy Scouts, you're in the priesthood at 12, all the lessons at church basically tell you that when you mess up and touch yourself it was probably a girl or woman's fault for being immodest (sorry to be graphic, but it is what it is), and that's all the modern church, forget about polygamy: women - multiple women - need you and your priesthood to get into the Kingdom of Heaven and be reunited with God. And your current spouse, if she don't like it when you get there and other women are supposed to marry you - well she just gets in line or gets destroyed. Easy to be a dude in the church (unless you have a conscience.)
I honestly don't know how any woman was ever in or stays in.

2) My community was almost all Mormon. Being LDS just felt natural to me growing up because there were so many other members where I lived. The church does a lot of heavy lifting for a kid in those cases: it creates social situations for you like church dances and activities. It gives you chances to excel (singing, church sports, scouting, etc.) and then praises you, telling you over and over how important you are to God and to your family and to the girl you haven't married yet, etc. It does also create a lot of expectations (or can) that can be heavy, but all in all, you're a little kid, and you learn to sing, to be social (at least with other members) to speak in public, to do well in school, etc.

3) My parents. More than the church, my parents were important in my happy Mormon upbringing. I say this because if I'm being honest, they kept me from having some of the trauma that I have heard others express. My parents were church leaders in our ward (congregation) but there are Mormons, and then there are Mormons. My dad in private talked about the sexism rampant in the church. Didn't like it. Talked about the racism in old church doctrines. Didn't like it. Told us it had to have been wrong, and he would not accept that it could have ever been God's will in any way. Talked about the insular nature of a lot of people in the church, and how wrong that was. They encouraged us to have friendships outside the church, they didn't like how kids in the neighborhood were excluded. And on and on. When you know these things are wrong, but the official doctrine and/or the unofficial policies of the church are still supporting and affirming that those things are NOT wrong, it creates a lot of internal conflict for folks. More on that further in this long process.

NOW, I want to be careful as I do this, but I do want to be honest. I want to be careful because religion and spirituality are delicate and important things, and very much personal in my view. In being honest, the last thing I want is to offend someone's belief or give the impression that I hate religion or the religion I have lived my whole life in. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most Mormons, like any members of a religion, are wonderful people who care about others and want to make the world better and live their best lives. I respect them, and I always will. With that said, I have to be honest in my assessment of the doctrine that underlies some of the wonderful (and not so wonderful) culture that Mormonism created where I live. Sometimes that's not pretty. Typically, as members, I've found we just don't like to really talk about those things much. That won't wash for my Gen Z kids, and so it can't really wash for me. Not anymore. So I'll be honest as we all talk, and hope I'm not offensive. It's interesting stuff.

Creating community is definitely a strong suit of the Mormon faith. Once you distance yourself from a religious upbringing you start to ponder the good and bad ways it helped you become the person you are today. I think a lot of us Gen Xers grew up in religious families have questioned a lot of the doctrines we were raised with, the younger generations even more so. High control religions generally crap on women as if we're somehow "less than" or "responsible for" many things that men don't give a second thought about.

For me personally, my mother was a very devout Christian. She was unchurched though because I think she always felt unwelcome being a single mom. She dutifully sent me to youth group all my K-12 years, made sure I went to Sunday school, and often attended Sunday services as well. For me the end was really when I moved out of her house and worked with a very diverse group of people from all over the world. I didn't go to college straight away so there was no more scaffolding that I had to operate within. Since then, I've traveled far and wide for extended periods of time worshipping in many places alongside people of different faiths. I've celebrated births, deaths, and weddings of many from different cultural and religious backgrounds. I've embraced that despite our perceived differences there are some universal truths that most of us abide by and there's no one singular path.

If anything, I'd consider myself spiritual. Not sure if you're on Instagram, but check out @revkarla. I think you will like her.

 

[JNA]

No shame with USU. I believe I asked you several years ago if you are a "true Aggie."

Not according to https://usustatesman.com/kiss-and-tell-history-of-the-true-aggie/
However I graduated in '80 - B.S. Geography with Landscape Architecture Minor.
listed in the Alumni Association as a "Forever Aggies" - even have a lifetime brick.

 

[DVD]

Most Mormons, like any members of a religion, are wonderful people who care about others and want to make the world better and live their best lives. I respect them, and I always will.

This is what I've felt about most Mormons and most other religions. Except that one - you know who you are. I just don't believe in what they are selling. I also don't like all the fundamentalist crap that happened in the past or some of the racism or homophobia, but I'm a strong believer that religion shouldn't interfere with politics and racism and homophobia have nothing to do with either.

 

[bureaucrat#3]

2) My community was almost all Mormon. Being LDS just felt natural to me growing up because there were so many other members where I lived. The church does a lot of heavy lifting for a kid in those cases: it creates social situations for you like church dances and activities. It gives you chances to excel (singing, church sports, scouting, etc.) and then praises you, telling you over and over how important you are to God and to your family and to the girl you haven't married yet, etc. It does also create a lot of expectations (or can) that can be heavy, but all in all, you're a little kid, and you learn to sing, to be social (at least with other members) to speak in public, to do well in school, etc.

We only had one family of Mormons in my high school. I believe they were at 7 kids when we graduated, but I think there was talk about having more. I had a few classes with the oldest boy who was a few years older than me. He is still probably one of the smartest people I've ever met. The next two kids were girls, one in my grade level and one below. The one who graduated with me was a star athlete, the one below wound up moving to New York to try to make it on Broadway. Both were absolutely the friendliest and kindest people and both were gorgeous. The rest of the kids all excelled in whatever they did and close to the top of their class.

One of my best friends wound up dating one of the girls. His parents weren't happy because they were fairly conservative Baptists. I went a few times to hang out his girlfriends house and it felt like a sitcom. The family actually seemed to love and enjoy being with each other. The house always had tons of friends over. The dad would break out the guitar and sing. The mom made smoothies for anyone who stopped by. She was one of the first adults who I remember talking to me like an adult when I was still young. The thing that always sticks in my mind was that their home had an office style telephone with three lines because no one had cellphones at that time, the father worked from home, and with 9 people or more one line was always in use.

The girl from my grade wound up going to BYU. I don't think she really wanted to, but the older son wound up getting a full ride to Carnegie Mellon or RPI and the parents knew the 3rd in age was going to run off to do some sort of acting. My friend who dated the oldest daughter was an avid rock climber and skier. So after a year in college he dropped out and moved to SLC to be near her. He got a job working for climbing gear company and doing construction on the side. Every day he would either go out and go skiing or climbing before or after work. He claims to have gotten kicked out of the BYU cafeteria due to the length of his hair. A bunch of us went out the next year and then too a giant road trip to Moab, a few of the national parks, and Vegas. Top five trips of my life.

They broke up a year or two later. I think it came down to religion. He was largely agnostic she became more adherent while at BYU. I still keep up with her on facebook. I think about half the kids have stepped away from the Mormon faith. They still to have an amazing very coherent and involved family. I had a great childhood and a great family, but I can remember thinking a few times while visiting that this Mormon family probably wouldn't even notice one more kid.

 

[ursus]

That is classic. The big family, the guitar, the love - and even the sorta over-achieving. My uncles and my mom would always sing at family get-togethers. All natural harmonizers. CCR, the Beatles, Kingston Trio, so much Kingston Trio. My family is like that now. We always sing when the girls come over for dinner. Always. Guitars, piano whatever it might be. There is a lot of love and acceptance in a big family, and Mormons love big families.

The complaint I hear from ex-mormons is that their family looked like that from the outside, but it was all shine and no substance. There is a lot of pressure to look like the perfect family, whether you are or not. That's not unique to Mormon families, for sure, but maybe the pressure is higher, I don't know. For my family, it was real. We really did love each other a ton, and the singing, good lord the singing. I still cry when anyone asks where I learned to do a harmony on the spot to whatever song. I learned to sing in parts sitting next to my mom at church. She taught me to sing the alto line with her when I was like 7 or 8. "You can hear it, can't you J" and she was so proud of me. I can still hear her. It's one of my best memories. I may not be in the church anymore, but nobody can take that away from me.

 

[bureaucrat#3]

Not all that glitters is gold.

Two of my most recent encounters with Mormons (we don't have many here) are proof. Both cases they seemed like the perfect high achieving, faith-, family-, and community-oriented lives.

In one case the man was obviously a closeted gay man, that I think most people suspected. Eventually he came to terms with it. It seemed both happy and sad. The family obviously broke up, but I think they all wound up happier.

The other dealt with a professor who constantly boasted about his personal and profession accomplishments (including 20 year old high school sports feats), perfect life and faith. At the same time, it was rumored that he was being inappropriate verging on grooming with foreign research assistants. I think at his next stop similar actions ultimately led to his dismissal.

I don't think either are necessarily representative of Mormons. Not equating the situations either, one was a repressed personal issue and the other was a creepy manipulative issue. Unfortunately, there are examples of this in all walks of life and especially conservative and male dominated religions. A town not too far away just had a mayor/pastor exposed as a cross dresser. From all accounts, he's a very nice guy and good mayor. I don't see how he gets re-elected if he sticks around that long or keeps his job in a conservative protestant denomination.

 

[mendelman]

I drove by the local meeting house this morning in my employer's part of the Metro. Gleaming white edifice, surrounded by a nice looking security fence.

I grewup in a late 20th century northern Baptist church (German heritage) that was slowly liberalizing. It was not extremely evangelical and proselytizing, but it was a good community within the greater small City region we lived in. This church was the successor of the German Baptist church my maternal grandmother grewup in when she lived in the county after the family immigrated from Germany in 1914. The family attended this church (in town) regularly and it was the primary congregation for the local German Baptist (not Amish or Mennonite) community.

Well, organized religion never really clicked for me, but I could/can appreciate the humanism of the moral/ethical intent, but I recognized too much rampant and continual hypocrisy in the people and the organization. So, I quickly understood that there was no absolute truth in the doctrine, but, yes, many of the people are/were good people.

When my wife and I married, I stepped over to her 'side' and we went to Roman Catholic parishes. I actually liked the rigor and history embedded in the services, no major emphasis on evangelizing/proselytizing (I prefer showing, not telling) and the architecture in many places is wonderful...but...the organized part was still not working for me.

Given the current knowledge of the negatives in organized religion vastly outweighing the positives, we don't attend anything anymore, but we are definitely (lowercase) humanists in the Asimov/Vonnegut molds for sure.

Plus, my oldest son, at about 7 years old, firmly took the position that science is paramount and organized religion is 'not true'.

Phew...so back on topic...I don't and didn't know many Mormons in my time so far. The only analog I had much experience with was the IBLP-type Christians...and I saw that bull coming a mile away as a kid.

 

[Gedunker]

On my paternal side, I am descended from a Great Great Great grandfather that was with John Smith in Nauvoo. If the family history is correct (and it has been published in a massive geneaology), he tried to render aid to Smith when Smith was murdered by the anti-Mormon mob. My GG grandfather, who was also in Nauvoo but not present at the murder, later joined the Mormon Battalion at Council Bluffs during the Mexican American War and walked from Iowa, through Mexico to California, where he reenlisted. The war ended weeks later and he was furloughed out of the Army. I am left to believe that his time in the Mormon Battalion probably was counter-productive to his religious formation because the left Mormonism behind, and none of my direct descendants have ever been members. I believe there are many, many distant cousins in the church in the SLC area, and elsewhere, however.

It is fascinating to me to learn from you @ursus about the church, community, and its practitioners. With a family history this close >||< to Mormonism, it's a personal thing for me.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Wannaplan?]

my most recent encounters with Mormons

For me, it was when my son was into this YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@WhatsInside/

I told my son we were done with that channel once they started building their new house and lavishly featured its construction progress on the channel. They didn't have the situational awareness to understand that monetizing their conspicuous consumption was gross.

 

[ursus]

I don't think either are necessarily representative of Mormons. Not equating the situations either, one was a repressed personal issue and the other was a creepy manipulative issue. Unfortunately, there are examples of this in all walks of life and especially conservative and male dominated religions.

You nailed something here that we should examine: It's true you can't say they are representative, but aspects of the stories are a part of what drove my decision to leave - not just stop believing. Mendelman's comment hits a nail on a head: truth claims have a hard time holding up in any religion, let alone one with claims of modern prophecy, golden plates, ancient Hebrew civilizations in the new world, etc. I didn't believe long before I stopped going and truly left.

Personal issues like homosexuality can and should be personal, but in LDS culture, they are not. The policies and doctrine kind of insist that there is something wrong with your sexual orientation - that it's deviant behavior that your lustful, horrible heart is choosing even though angels and the holy ghost are trying to save you from it - that can create real harm and do real damage to lots of people. My older brother, let's call him "Golden Boy", is gay. He has known he was gay since he was 12. He grew up in the church and tried to hide it. Went on a mission for the church, came home, got married, and had three kids. Married 20 years. His church leadership on the mission and after knew that he was gay. He told them, and worried about each next step. His WIFE KNEW that he was gay. She married him because her church leader told her not only would she get her eternal husband, but she could fix him over time. She could help him overcome his gay-ness. They worried about having children in the marriage, but Mormon families aren't families that don't have children. After years and years of pretending to be perfect, they divorced. Their kids were 16, 18, and 21 - just home from a mission. Ask me if his wife felt damaged and hurt. Ask me if the kids are OK. They all seem fine, but it's taken years. Most are not in the church. Two are. Including the ex-wife. Wrap your head around that.

The harm is real. The damage is real. I can forgive a lot of things, but some I can't, and I won't. Golden Boy had excelled at everything he had ever done. Effortlessly. But you can't make yourself not-gay. And he did try. He is happier now, but he is a functional alcoholic. I assume it drowns out......whatever it needs to drown out. My family rallied around him, like the progressive, loving people we were. He was so scared to tell our dad, and there was NO judgement. Nothing but love and acceptance, and asking Golden Boy to forgive him for not having seen how hurt he had probably been by the things the religion he gave us taught. The church never asked forgiveness for that harm. It owes a lot of apologies to a lot of people it claims to love unconditionally. My dad was 5' 6", but a towering man there that day, loving my brother in spite of doctrine he'd been swallowing for 70 years. People always stand taller than their religions.

 

[ursus]

For me, it was when my son was into this YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@WhatsInside/

I told my son we were done with that channel once they started building their new house and lavishly featured its construction progress on the channel. They didn't have the situational awareness to understand that monetizing their conspicuous consumption was gross.

Classic. Have you ever heard the term "Prosperity Gospel"? If you look at LDS culture long enough, you can see that term in action. The idea is that God blesses those who follow his gospel. In LDS culture that means listening to and obeying the leaders of the church. LDS culture / doctrine drives hard on the "follow the brethren" line. There is an LDS scripture often quoted "Whether it be by my voice or the voice of my servant's, it is the same." The servants are the top church leadership. So the gist is that if you are rich, you're living the truth and God is blessing you. If you are poor, or having a hard time financially - it's your fault. Years ago, at a particularly hard moment professionally and personally, I was asked by a church leader "What are you doing that is keeping the Lord from blessing you?" Yeah.

That's the Prosperity Gospel. It's gross, and it's very on display in darker LDS moments. More later.

 

[mendelman]

I was asked by a church leader "What are you doing that is keeping the Lord from blessing you?" Yeah.

 

[bureaucrat#3]

My family rallied around him, like the progressive, loving people we were.

I know Mormons tend to be portrayed as super conservative in a lot of ways, but most I've dealt with have been fairly progressive on a lot of topics. Maybe my sample size is small, but most I've met seem to be way more liberal than the standard evangelical protestants we get grow around here. It may be that their moral view extends further to things like environmental issues or homelessness. What's your take?


So many religious people in the South have comingled their faith and politics that they don't always seem to be logical. Mix that with a nasty strain of dominionism and nationalism and things get bad.

 

[SlaveToTheGrind]

I know Mormons tend to be portrayed as super conservative in a lot of ways, but most I've dealt with have been fairly progressive on a lot of topics. Maybe my sample size is small, but most I've met seem to be way more liberal than the standard evangelical protestants we get grow around here. It may be that their moral view extends further to things like environmental issues or homelessness. What's your take?


So many religious people in the South have comingled their faith and politics that they don't always seem to be logical. Mix that with a nasty strain of dominionism and nationalism and things get bad.

Republican Mormons view themselves as Brahmins and view Democrat Mormons as Shudras, if using the caste system. Religion and politics are very intertwined in Mormonism.

 

[mendelman]

Sorry. This thread needs some Bill & Ted.

and

 

[ursus]

I know Mormons tend to be portrayed as super conservative in a lot of ways, but most I've dealt with have been fairly progressive on a lot of topics. Maybe my sample size is small, but most I've met seem to be way more liberal than the standard evangelical protestants we get grow around here. It may be that their moral view extends further to things like environmental issues or homelessness. What's your take?


So many religious people in the South have comingled their faith and politics that they don't always seem to be logical. Mix that with a nasty strain of dominionism and nationalism and things get bad.

There are lots of progressive Mormons, but Slave has it right: the vast majority are very, very conservative, and they align that way. There is even a super-fanatic strain of Mormon as well, that is stoked by the emphasis of the original church on the End of Days. Visions of a cataclysmic, violent second coming are just, well, a lot of Mormons dig that stuff, and there's plenty of it to mine in the writings of early church leaders.

You can hold progressive views and be in the church, but none of the messaging or policies will align with your views, and you do get a lot of side-eye. The most progressive Mormons who believe in reproductive rights for women, feminism, LGBTQ+ rights, etc. and then advocate too strongly for the church to change its positions - they are often excommunicated. Casual members that keep their opinions about issues to themselves are fine. Nobody's knocking doors looking for them. So your acquaintances may be honestly expressing their opinions to you and feel safe doing it. I think there are more of us than the church realizes, because many camouflage their true views when they're faced with church leadership and other members.

So I guess my problem there is that again, it's the individual members that are cool with things; the church's policies are not.

 

[Maister]

That is classic. The big family, the guitar, the love - and even the sorta over-achieving. My uncles and my mom would always sing at family get-togethers. All natural harmonizers. CCR, the Beatles, Kingston Trio, so much Kingston Trio. My family is like that now. We always sing when the girls come over for dinner. Always. Guitars, piano whatever it might be. There is a lot of love and acceptance in a big family, and Mormons love big families.

The complaint I hear from ex-mormons is that their family looked like that from the outside, but it was all shine and no substance. There is a lot of pressure to look like the perfect family, whether you are or not. That's not unique to Mormon families, for sure, but maybe the pressure is higher, I don't know. For my family, it was real. We really did love each other a ton, and the singing, good lord the singing. I still cry when anyone asks where I learned to do a harmony on the spot to whatever song. I learned to sing in parts sitting next to my mom at church. She taught me to sing the alto line with her when I was like 7 or 8. "You can hear it, can't you J" and she was so proud of me. I can still hear her. It's one of my best memories. I may not be in the church anymore, but nobody can take that away from me.

What are your views on Ned Flanders and his family?

 

[ursus]

What are your views on Ned Flanders and his family?

I am sure the Flanders family resonates with anybody from a high-demand religion, right down to the hot mom. And if you just read that hot-christian-mom thing and went "ursus is gross" you've apparently never paid attention to your own thoughts while you scrolled video reels on Instagram. I stopped lying to myself years ago. Catch up, it's nice here. That said, on the sad side I think Ned is classic; he is in a constant state of repressing almost every natural feeling he has, and convincing himself in real-time all day every day that he believes what he says! I feel Ned. I really do. I think all fathers and husbands do, if we're honest, whether in a high demand religion or not, at least to some degree. Ned is as much a representation of men in America as Homer is. I'm sure grad students write dissertations on the Simpsons. They must.

 

[ursus]

There is a scene in "Under the Banner of Heaven" where the character played by Andrew Garfield takes a book from the jailed Lafferty brother about the history of the LDS church. He takes the book, and sneaks out into his garage and reads it in his car in the middle of the night, and cries while he reads. Eventually his wife comes out into the garage and could be no more disappointed and disgusted with him than if she had found him fooling around with a 12 year old neighbor out there. She's so mad that he would read this "anti-mormon" book that she takes the kids and goes to her parents, like she's afraid for them to be around him.

I'm sure a lot of people saw that scene and found it over the top. It's not. That's what I would have done, if there were no internet. And it would have gone down for me exactly the same way. From the time you're little, you hear over and over again that "the world" has printed a bunch of lies about your church and it's leaders, and you shouldn't ever read any of it because it's just lies, made up to make you doubt the truth. This is the space I'm in now. I have no belief any more. It didn't take much for it to crumble, either, because the truth claims are just a real house of cards. For my wife, although she is no longer going to church, she still believes on some levels. She sees and hates the hypocrisy, the money-hoarding, the judgement and intolerance, but she can't or won't take the next step. Honestly, since lots of my family is out and my father is dead it was probably easier for me. Her parents will not deal well with an all-out declaration.

Here's the question: what if we don't make one? What if we just continue to quietly drift away like this? She isn't too concerned that I clearly don't believe (although I have not been explicit about the totality of my disbelief because I am a coward and I love her.) Maybe she can just drift with me, mostly not believing. I'm so worried that she'll ask me outright. I won't lie to her, and honestly, Andrew Garfield should get an Emmy for that performance reading in the garage. I feel like that, all the time now: betrayed and terrified and angry and hurt and worried that nobody will love me if I tell them that I don't believe. All he can come to say is that he is "struggling". That's the term. I've said it myself, and wondered if she sees through me. If I had been at this point when the kids were little, she might have left me and taken them with her to "save" them from me.

Just needed to unload, folks.

 

[mendelman]

@ursus it’s ok my friend.

Thanks for sharing. Your feelings and thoughts are universal for most all human growth/change.

The human need for ‘belonging’ is strong in us as sentient and social animals.

 

[Maister]

There is a scene in "Under the Banner of Heaven" where the character played by Andrew Garfield takes a book from the jailed Lafferty brother about the history of the LDS church. He takes the book, and sneaks out into his garage and reads it in his car in the middle of the night, and cries while he reads. Eventually his wife comes out into the garage and could be no more disappointed and disgusted with him than if she had found him fooling around with a 12 year old neighbor out there. She's so mad that he would read this "anti-mormon" book that she takes the kids and goes to her parents, like she's afraid for them to be around him.

I'm sure a lot of people saw that scene and found it over the top. It's not. That's what I would have done, if there were no internet. And it would have gone down for me exactly the same way. From the time you're little, you hear over and over again that "the world" has printed a bunch of lies about your church and it's leaders, and you shouldn't ever read any of it because it's just lies, made up to make you doubt the truth. This is the space I'm in now. I have no belief any more. It didn't take much for it to crumble, either, because the truth claims are just a real house of cards. For my wife, although she is no longer going to church, she still believes on some levels. She sees and hates the hypocrisy, the money-hoarding, the judgement and intolerance, but she can't or won't take the next step. Honestly, since lots of my family is out and my father is dead it was probably easier for me. Her parents will not deal well with an all-out declaration.

Here's the question: what if we don't make one? What if we just continue to quietly drift away like this? She isn't too concerned that I clearly don't believe (although I have not been explicit about the totality of my disbelief because I am a coward and I love her.) Maybe she can just drift with me, mostly not believing. I'm so worried that she'll ask me outright. I won't lie to her, and honestly, Andrew Garfield should get an Emmy for that performance reading in the garage. I feel like that, all the time now: betrayed and terrified and angry and hurt and worried that nobody will love me if I tell them that I don't believe. All he can come to say is that he is "struggling". That's the term. I've said it myself, and wondered if she sees through me. If I had been at this point when the kids were little, she might have left me and taken them with her to "save" them from me.

Just needed to unload, folks.

Smart people capable of critical thought are particularly susceptible to what you describe.

And, ursus. I suspect she already knows, or at least has a strong inkling where you're at on that score.

 

[bureaucrat#3]

There is a scene in "Under the Banner of Heaven" where the character played by Andrew Garfield takes a book from the jailed Lafferty brother about the history of the LDS church. He takes the book, and sneaks out into his garage and reads it in his car in the middle of the night, and cries while he reads. Eventually his wife comes out into the garage and could be no more disappointed and disgusted with him than if she had found him fooling around with a 12 year old neighbor out there. She's so mad that he would read this "anti-mormon" book that she takes the kids and goes to her parents, like she's afraid for them to be around him.

I'm sure a lot of people saw that scene and found it over the top. It's not. That's what I would have done, if there were no internet. And it would have gone down for me exactly the same way. From the time you're little, you hear over and over again that "the world" has printed a bunch of lies about your church and it's leaders, and you shouldn't ever read any of it because it's just lies, made up to make you doubt the truth. This is the space I'm in now. I have no belief any more. It didn't take much for it to crumble, either, because the truth claims are just a real house of cards. For my wife, although she is no longer going to church, she still believes on some levels. She sees and hates the hypocrisy, the money-hoarding, the judgement and intolerance, but she can't or won't take the next step. Honestly, since lots of my family is out and my father is dead it was probably easier for me. Her parents will not deal well with an all-out declaration.

Here's the question: what if we don't make one? What if we just continue to quietly drift away like this? She isn't too concerned that I clearly don't believe (although I have not been explicit about the totality of my disbelief because I am a coward and I love her.) Maybe she can just drift with me, mostly not believing. I'm so worried that she'll ask me outright. I won't lie to her, and honestly, Andrew Garfield should get an Emmy for that performance reading in the garage. I feel like that, all the time now: betrayed and terrified and angry and hurt and worried that nobody will love me if I tell them that I don't believe. All he can come to say is that he is "struggling". That's the term. I've said it myself, and wondered if she sees through me. If I had been at this point when the kids were little, she might have left me and taken them with her to "save" them from me.

Just needed to unload, folks.

This post hits hard. Some of my wife and my biggest arguments have been over differences in spiritual/religious beliefs. I actively try not to discuss most religious dogma with her. One of my other fear at times is that I don't want my "struggles" to damage someone's faith.

"Under the Banner of Heaven" was tough to watch, but more so because of how raw some of it was. I definitely saw parallels with other extremely conservative Christian families. Garfield was excellent in the role.

 

[dw914er]

@ursus, your last two posts here are unmistakably you - thoughtful, funny, and genuine. Just know that you're great.

I think the struggle of faith for those that don't blindly believe is a tough one that we struggle with. Finding purpose and community is something I think we all want, and religion can help fill that void, but it also relies on accepting ideas from people, and if history teaches us anything, is that it is usually flawed.

 

[Whose Yur Planner]

I can relate somewhat. My great grandfather left the Catholic Church and became a Protestant. There was a great schism when that happened. When I started church mid way through college, I started going to a Baptist church. My grandfather was surprised I didn't go the the denomination that I grew up in. Currently I go to a Baptist church and a Presbyterian church.