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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Maister said:
I said during primaries that if Trump ever became President he would become Zaphod Beeblebrox. Those familiar with Douglas Adams 'Hitchhiker' series will know....
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I don't like this comparison. Zaphod had some redeeming qualities including self-awareness and even tried to help people at certain points.
 
BenneC20180215_low.jpg
 
I told The Girl about the Parkland shooting this morning on the way to high school. She immediately looked up the story on her phone. It was pretty quiet the rest of the way there.

I let her out and said, "Remember be aware of what's around you. I love you. Have a good day."
 
Planit said:
I told The Girl about the Parkland shooting this morning on the way to high school. She immediately looked up the story on her phone. It was pretty quiet the rest of the way there.

I let her out and said, "Remember be aware of what's around you. I love you. Have a good day."
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My daughter is a Senior and we talked about "active shooter" drills at her high school. She said it is pretty non-chalant - they lock the door and pull the shade on the door window and the kids sit with their backs against the hallway wall inside the classroom. She said everybody freaks out, though, when a faculty member comes and tries to enter the room, rattling the door in its jamb. It made me incredibly sad and I just hugged her.
 
Gedunker said:
My daughter is a Senior and we talked about "active shooter" drills at her high school. She said it is pretty non-chalant - they lock the door and pull the shade on the door window and the kids sit with their backs against the hallway wall inside the classroom. She said everybody freaks out, though, when a faculty member comes and tries to enter the room, rattling the door in its jamb. It made me incredibly sad and I just hugged her.
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You and I had 'duck and cover' drills when we were kids. Nowadays it's 'active shooter' drills. The idea of fear seems to follow us with every generation (but yeah, the active shooter thing seems somehow more......personal)
 
Maister said:
You and I had 'duck and cover' drills when we were kids. Nowadays it's 'active shooter' drills. The idea of fear seems to follow us with every generation (but yeah, the active shooter thing seems somehow more......personal)
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Probably because (sadly) active shooters in our schools are an all too real thing whereas we've never been hit with an atomic bomb.
 
Nice little opinion piece in USAToday from a pastor who's lost his dad & friend in mass shootings:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...rida-shooting-joe-laguardia-column/341392002/

Some excerpts:
I tried to keep from weeping the last time I went through an airport security check. I had to take my shoes off at the metal detector because one terrorist, a few years back, tried to light a fire on an airplane.

It had been four years since the tragic death of my father, James Vinny LaGuardia, in a 2013 mass shooting at a town hall meeting in Pennsylvania, and no laws had been passed to curb the threat of gun violence in our nation.

We kill our heroes, even our men and women in blue, because we are too afraid to do anything about that one part of the Second Amendment that concerns a "well-regulated" militia.

People have encouraged me to write my representatives, but I've given up on that. I don't have representatives. Who will Sen. Marco Rubio listen to, me or the lobby that has paid him $3.3 million dollars in campaign contributions?

The last time we had a mass shooting, White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said it was not the right time to talk politics about guns, but to pray. I am still waiting for that conversation.







Go ahead and throw me under the bus, I don't care. I just want my daughter to come home from school.
 
Few thoughts about the shooting.

On FB there have been some very outlandish suggestions about making all guns illegal and the local gun shop that I go to had to lock down their FB site because of threats and comments.

All the gun people that I associate with (and there is a good number of them) agree that universal background checks should happen for any firearm purchased.
Improve the mental health conditions and programs in this country. We spend way too much money on stupid things that the Government should not fund, but this is a MASSIVE hole in our funding that impacts everyone in one way or another.
Improve communication between departments. There were warning signs and the FBI was contacted a month ago after he bluntly stated what he wanted to do on Facebook and posted a picture of himself with a weapon.

Finally, as I have noted over and over and over and yes... over again, if it is a gun-free zone, there needs to better methods to prevent weapons from entering than a sticker on the door. Someone who is out to do something like this is not going to give a rip about the sticker.

Overall, the discussion has to start with rational discussion and not partisan politics fueled by emotion. That will not help anyone.
 
"I'm totally opposed to domestic violence."...and hurricanes...and earthquakes...and tornadoes....and wildfires...and mass shootings...and flu epidemics...and bribes to porn stars...
 
The NRA needs to propose a meaningful bill.

If they don't, at some point this problem will reach a level that people will revolt and come after the 2nd amendment directly, or you'll see the judicial begin reining in on the basis of protecting life. The NRA would be well-served to develop their own alternative and advocate for it, if only because their purchased congresspeople are coming under heavier & heavier attack and will eventually buckle (or disappear).

Unfortunately, the NRA is focused exclusively on advocating for manufacturers, but has somehow convinced John & Jane Q Gunowner that it is their interests they are protecting.
 
Suburb Repairman said:
The NRA needs to propose a meaningful bill.

If they don't, at some point this problem will reach a level that people will revolt and come after the 2nd amendment directly, or you'll see the judicial begin reining in on the basis of protecting life. The NRA would be well-served to develop their own alternative and advocate for it, if only because their purchased congresspeople are coming under heavier & heavier attack and will eventually buckle (or disappear).

Unfortunately, the NRA is focused exclusively on advocating for manufacturers, but has somehow convinced John & Jane Q Gunowner that it is their interests they are protecting.
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I agree sub rep. There are things that can be done that do not involve infringing on the second amendment, but as we experience more and more gun tragedies the NRA crowd digs in more and more against anything. Not that it would necessarily do much but they even opposed bunp srock legislation immediately after bump stocks were used to kill over 50 people and injure almost 500. Things can be done that don’t infringe on the second, but the way this is going there will be an eventual backlash that does lead to infringement. To protect gun rights in the long term, gun advocates should be taking a proactive role in working on reducing gun violence.
 
Suburb Repairman said:
The NRA needs to propose a meaningful bill.

If they don't, at some point this problem will reach a level that people will revolt and come after the 2nd amendment directly, or you'll see the judicial begin reining in on the basis of protecting life. The NRA would be well-served to develop their own alternative and advocate for it, if only because their purchased congresspeople are coming under heavier & heavier attack and will eventually buckle (or disappear).

Unfortunately, the NRA is focused exclusively on advocating for manufacturers, but has somehow convinced John & Jane Q Gunowner that it is their interests they are protecting.
Click to expand...

This is what I always think. If the NRA and GOP don't take control of the issue the issue will take control of them and we'll end up banning all guns or limiting them to the point of hunting rifles. 138 kids killed since 2012 and it looks like school shootings are almost becoming a monthly problem. I wouldn't be the first one to sign the petition, but I'll be signing it when it comes along.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. We keep missing those first words and keep focusing on the last ones.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've already contacted my congressmen, again.
 
For the life of me, I can't understand why one of my senators has accepted more than $3,000,000 from the NRA. For Chrissakes, this is Indiana! Nobody, and I mean nobody, is actually, seriously, even somewhat remotely likely, to come after your guns. More! Than! Three! Million! Dollars!!!

I hold no hope that the GOP and NRA will ever do the first thing about this nation's absurd gun fetish.:not:
 
I think that if sensible gun reform doesn't happen, it will just be another arrow in the cap of the democrats. The younger generations are not as stupid as the older ones who seem to hold onto some belief that the government is going to take all their guns. Listen to the kids in Florida when they say that if the politicans won't do something, they will.

The future is bright in the country. The stupidity of the republicans and their campaign contributions, will make change occur. The continued blind eye they turn to these tragedies will one day come back to bite them in elections.

I would like to hope that we understand that limiting weapons, making it hard to buy a gun, and tracking every purchase, sale, and location of guns is not going to harm those who are hunting. If the goal is to keep guns in the hands of hunters I agree. If the goal is to allow a guy to stockpile guns to assure the government doesn't overthrow his empire, then I disagree.

We can keep the second amendment strong and limit severely the ability to own, sell, or use a gun.

I generally support gun rights, but the NRA and many confused R's seem to believe that if the government puts in one regulation that the second amendment is being infringed upon. This needs to change.

---

With that said, militarizing our schools is not the answer. Good guys with guns, etc. is not the answer. More guns is not the answer. Ever. Less guns is better. Fewer opportunities is better. Making it harder to have these tragedies is better.
 
Gedunker said:
For the life of me, I can't understand why one of my senators has accepted more than $3,000,000 from the NRA. For Chrissakes, this is Indiana! Nobody, and I mean nobody, is actually, seriously, even somewhat remotely likely, to come after your guns. More! Than! Three! Million! Dollars!!!

I hold no hope that the GOP and NRA will ever do the first thing about this nation's absurd gun fetish.:not:
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It's minimal in Kansas, but no one cares what Kansas thinks and everyone knows we're all gun toting idiots around here.


I look at it this way. There are two common factors in each of these shootings. Guns and crazy people. Regardless of their technical mental health they're crazy because sane people don't do these things. We can try to regulate guns, but the guns don't really care. Things like limited magazine capacity and useless crap like silencers and bump stocks might be a start. We can try to regulate crazy, but good luck with that. The only thing left is putting a barrier between people and guns so fewer crazy people get to the guns. So we just start regulating access. Then again, this is the same argument we have every time one of these shootings comes along and no one does anything. Like I've said, I've contacted my congressmen and I know I won't be voting for them next election. It might be a one issue problem, but it's a big problem and they haven't even tried to address it.
 
Over the weekend, I have been thinking a lot about the shooting in Florida and we talked about it a bit at church and with some friends that we meet up with at a bar. The interesting thing was there was a consensus between two very different groups. Both agreed that there should be some nationwide universal background check to purchase something like this. Some thought it should be all firearms, some thought it should be rifles and handguns, and others felt it should only be semiautomatic weapons.

But the bigger item of agreement is that we don’t have a gun problem. For many, many year’s guys had guns in their trucks parked in the school parking lot. Think about all the gun racks that were in the back window of trucks driving down the street, often with unloaded weapons in them. I know my uncles and my grandfather had them. When I was in middle school, we had an outdoor safety class as one of the regular classes. We got our boating, snowmobile, and hunting safety certificates. One of the days there was several different weapons in class and we learned to property clean and maintain them. A few students even brought in their own and dropped them off before school started with the teacher and picked them up after school. It is much less likely now for someone to have a gun at school than it was 35 plus years ago. But what students do with them is far different today than it just a few decades ago.

I do think that we have a political problem which is tied to a gun problem. I do think that we have a mental health care problem. I do think that we have a culture problem.

First of all, the NRA is a lobbyist group that does not represent gun owners, they represent gun companies. There are some really good people at the NRA, but as a whole, the organization is not helping the situation as they push to eliminate any restrictions. I applaud their training efforts, but it is no secret that I am not a fan of lobbyists. There should be universal background checks for purchase a semiautomatic weapon. I also think that democrats use tragic events like this to push an unrealistic agenda in an effort to get political points knowing that their efforts will make ZERO difference long term. I think that republicans buy too much into the propaganda that the NRA puts out.

Second, we have a mental health care problem. Funding for mental health services continues to decrease. This young man had a history of problems and was not able to get the help he needed.

Third, we have a parenting problem. Violence amongst kids is increasing and there is a level of disrespect that I am having a difficult time comprehending. Kids are being openly defiant to parents and teachers, disrespecting everyone, and acting as if they rules are nothing more than soft suggestions. Furthermore, there is a serious lack of discipline. I know that if I asked even half as bad as some of these kids when I was there age, my parents would have made sure that my attitude went 180 degrees instantaneously. But today society founds on parents being strict with their parents. I see it all the time with how some of the kids in my kid’s cubscout pack act. I have had parents ask me why I would not let my son do this or do that, and why is it that whenever I need to talk to him about his actions or his attitude, he responds with Yes Sir or No Sir. I could go on, but I will just let a Teacher of the Year from FL explain it… (LINK)

Finally, we have a social problem. There have been 22 people shot and killed and 69 shot and wounded in Chicago since the beginning of February. There was 26 murders in Baltimore in January 2018. But why does not not make national news. Idiots are posting selfies holding guns as if they are some type of gangster. But we are in such a hyper-PC world that people are not willing to speak up against someone out of fear of being labeled or verbally attacked. There is evil in this world but so few people are willing to do anything about it because their actions might offend someone. Kids are more likely to be ostracized if they are reading a bible in school than if they are playing something like Grand Theft Auto. Since when is it more acceptable to glorify violence and murder than express your faith?

What are your thoughts. Do you seriously think that this issue is just a gun problem, or do you think that the gun is the tool of choice for a much larger and more significant problem and more so, why do you think or feel the way that you do?
 
By all accounts Cruz got the gun legally a year ago. Passed the background check because he had no criminal record. There are no records of mental health issues. He was never admitted anywhere, he wasn't on any sort of medication, he wasn't seeing any sort of therapist. So that begs the question, what sort of background check would have caught this? Survivors say he was "creepy & weird" but that's a lot different than having an existing mental health condition. Is there a database for "outcast" kids? What's the answer? I see several things that may help:

- Raise the age to legally purchase a weapon to 21. The legal age to by alcohol is 21, primarily to keep it out of the school system, why should guns be any different? I realize the alcohol age isn't a federal mandate, but there are certainly ways to politely coerce states into following that "suggestion".

- School expulsion records should be included as a function of background checks. This will run right into FERPA, and it'll be a big fight. I'm not sure if there's any federal court precedent, but several state appellate courts have already ruled that state laws requiring school boards to maintain records of expulsions violated FERPA (this was in California around 2003). There's no word on exactly why Cruz was expelled. Uncorroborated reports it was directly related to threats against other students and "he wasn't allowed on campus with a backpack".

- DSS records should be included as a function of background checks. Another big fight, but perhaps it will shed some light on whether there may be some un-diagnosed mental illness. If there's a history of DSS visiting a home repeatedly based around behavioral issues, that should be a red flag.

- Police need to stop being so forgiving. The police were repeatedly called out to the Cruz home because of various violent outbursts from Mr. Cruz. If there's any sort of charge to be issued, do it. It's paperwork, it's an annoyance, I get it, but a criminal record on these people can save lives. It's not up to the police to determine whether to arrest someone or charge them with a crime, that's why the court exists. The police are trained to recognize probable cause. If it's there, don't be "nice", cuff 'em.

- Increase wait times for any legally purchased weapon. If an NICS review gets pushed to the FBI for additional review, the clock STOPS. Currently, if NICS cannot reach a verdict in 3 days, the firearm must be sold. Dylan Roof was allowed to purchase his pistol only because his 3 days were up. He had confessed to a drug crime a month earlier, which would have denied the sale. Additional review means additional cause for concern. At the point that the search is elevated to the FBI, the 3 day clock is terminated and the wait time becomes open ended.

- Currently the Brady Act does not apply unlicensed gun sellers. There should be no such thing as an "unlicensed gun seller". What's the freaking point of requiring background checks if it's that simple to get around?

All this said, there's still a disturbing lack of consistency on gun laws from state to state. Those provisions above wouldn't have stopped Stephen Paddock from purchasing his 47 weapons. There is no federal reporting or databases of weapon purchases either. ATF does require that purchases of multiple handguns by the same buyer ARE reported, but that's it, and will only occur if it's from the same store. Paddock bought guns from several different states. Realistically, there could be a veritable militia sitting on a stock pile of legally purchased weapons ready to spring into action at any time, and no one would know until it's too late.

To add to all of this, I don't think these checks really matter in the long run. Weapons were incredibly easy to get before the Brady Bill, and we didn't have mass shootings then. There's much more going on, and gun control is just a convenient "band-aid".
 
AG74683 said:
By all accounts Cruz got the gun legally a year ago. Passed the background check because he had no criminal record. There are no records of mental health issues. He was never admitted anywhere, he wasn't on any sort of medication, he wasn't seeing any sort of therapist. So that begs the question, what sort of background check would have caught this? Survivors say he was "creepy & weird" but that's a lot different than having an existing mental health condition. Is there a database for "outcast" kids? What's the answer? I see several things that may help:

- Raise the age to legally purchase a weapon to 21. The legal age to by alcohol is 21, primarily to keep it out of the school system, why should guns be any different? I realize the alcohol age isn't a federal mandate, but there are certainly ways to politely coerce states into following that "suggestion".

- School expulsion records should be included as a function of background checks. This will run right into FERPA, and it'll be a big fight. I'm not sure if there's any federal court precedent, but several state appellate courts have already ruled that state laws requiring school boards to maintain records of expulsions violated FERPA (this was in California around 2003). There's no word on exactly why Cruz was expelled. Uncorroborated reports it was directly related to threats against other students and "he wasn't allowed on campus with a backpack".

- DSS records should be included as a function of background checks. Another big fight, but perhaps it will shed some light on whether there may be some un-diagnosed mental illness. If there's a history of DSS visiting a home repeatedly based around behavioral issues, that should be a red flag.

- Police need to stop being so forgiving. The police were repeatedly called out to the Cruz home because of various violent outbursts from Mr. Cruz. If there's any sort of charge to be issued, do it. It's paperwork, it's an annoyance, I get it, but a criminal record on these people can save lives. It's not up to the police to determine whether to arrest someone or charge them with a crime, that's why the court exists. The police are trained to recognize probable cause. If it's there, don't be "nice", cuff 'em.

- Increase wait times for any legally purchased weapon. If an NICS review gets pushed to the FBI for additional review, the clock STOPS. Currently, if NICS cannot reach a verdict in 3 days, the firearm must be sold. Dylan Roof was allowed to purchase his pistol only because his 3 days were up. He had confessed to a drug crime a month earlier, which would have denied the sale. Additional review means additional cause for concern. At the point that the search is elevated to the FBI, the 3 day clock is terminated and the wait time becomes open ended.

- Currently the Brady Act does not apply unlicensed gun sellers. There should be no such thing as an "unlicensed gun seller". What's the freaking point of requiring background checks if it's that simple to get around?

All this said, there's still a disturbing lack of consistency on gun laws from state to state. Those provisions above wouldn't have stopped Stephen Paddock from purchasing his 47 weapons. There is no federal reporting or databases of weapon purchases either. ATF does require that purchases of multiple handguns by the same buyer ARE reported, but that's it, and will only occur if it's from the same store. Paddock bought guns from several different states. Realistically, there could be a veritable militia sitting on a stock pile of legally purchased weapons ready to spring into action at any time, and no one would know until it's too late.

To add to all of this, I don't think these checks really matter in the long run. Weapons were incredibly easy to get before the Brady Bill, and we didn't have mass shootings then. There's much more going on, and gun control is just a convenient "band-aid".
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I agree with just about everything you posted but one. The gun registry database. Stephen Paddock would have done what he did regardless of the number of weapons he owned. Most of these mass shootings are not done using some extensive arsenal. However you are correct regarding the inconsistency with state regulations. Instead of a database of weapons purchased, I would be in favor of database keeping track of every time that a background check to purchase was done.
 
michaelskis said:
I agree with just about everything you posted but one. The gun registry database. Stephen Paddock would have done what he did regardless of the number of weapons he owned. Most of these mass shootings are not done using some extensive arsenal. However you are correct regarding the inconsistency with state regulations. Instead of a database of weapons purchased, I would be in favor of database keeping track of every time that a background check to purchase was done.
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I always figured you could backtrack through NICS checks to see who's been hit with a check and see roughly how many guns someone has owned. A national database gets increasingly closer to "1984" territory, which is definitely concerning. Why should the government keep a database of those executing their constitutional right?

Probably an unpopular opinion, but honestly, I think the immediate way to attack this issue is to strengthen school security through federal dollars from the Department of Education in corroboration with Homeland Security. No one gets in to a school without a search of some sort by properly trained law enforcement official. No more open doors. There should be no reason why an individual looking to do harm to anyone inside of a school should be able to get inside. School furniture needs to see a significant change, kevlar reinforced desktops, reinforced class room security doors with automatic panic hardware that prohibits entry when initiated, deconstructable reinforced school furniture (cabinet doors, tabletops, etc.) that can be easily and quickly arranged to create a ballistic shield to protect people. Everyone is quick to come up with political solutions to stop the issue, but those take time. We no longer have time. There's no stop gap, and no guarantee those solutions will work. It's time to admit that our schools are basically war zones. We protect our soldiers, lets protect our kids too. We now live in an era where parents are giving kids doorstops to push under a classroom door to deter entry for as long as possible, where an emergency drill for students in school shooting situations is simply to run around and create confusion to "buy time" to get other kids out.
 
At the schools in this district, all exterior doors are locked except the one at the main entrance into the office. Going through the office is the only place you can get into the building. There's nothing to prevent them from shooting the glass out doors and windows and entering that way.

Having said that, you can exit the building at any door at any time. Students go outside for lunch, go from one campus/building to another and occasionally a class too.
 
giff57 said:
This

https://mystudentapt.com/2015/10/06/theres-a-way-to-stop-mass-shootings-and-you-wont-like-it/
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I feel like a pretty big fool. I've been comparing gun regulations pre/post Brady Bill trying to think of just why these shootings are happening. Buying a gun used to be a simple, easy process. Now we have background checks, waiting periods, etc. Logically, we've increased regulation so these shootings shouldn't be commonplace, yet if anything it's gotten worse even with regulations in place. Reading that article, I see one major difference between "then" and "now", social media.

We used to be cordial to one another, even though we might talk some mad trash in private. Now it's Facebook this, or Twitter that. Before, you never really saw someones true nature unless you were really looking for it, but now the ugliness is on complete display. Bullying no longer stops in the school yard, or with a fist fight behind the gym, it follows you home, insinuates itself in your non-school life. I'm not sure how you go backwards. It's weird to think that humanity may be the most connected it's ever been, but in reality everyone is more alone than we realize.
 
Humanity is entering its' adolescence. And it seems that we as a species may not be ready for all the associated responsibility that social media entails.
 
Did George Washington Predict Donald Trump?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/...n-donald-trump.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

With uncanny foresight, he warned that the most serious threat to our democracy might come from disunity within the country rather than interference from outside.
And he foresaw the possibility of foreign influence over our political system and the rise of a president whose ego and avarice would transcend the national interest, raising the threat of despotism.
Click to expand...
 
michaelskis said:
I do think that we have a political problem which is tied to a gun problem. I do think that we have a mental health care problem. I do think that we have a culture problem.

First of all, the NRA is a lobbyist group that does not represent gun owners, they represent gun companies. There are some really good people at the NRA, but as a whole, the organization is not helping the situation as they push to eliminate any restrictions. I applaud their training efforts, but it is no secret that I am not a fan of lobbyists. There should be universal background checks for purchase a semiautomatic weapon. I also think that democrats use tragic events like this to push an unrealistic agenda in an effort to get political points knowing that their efforts will make ZERO difference long term. I think that republicans buy too much into the propaganda that the NRA puts out.

Second, we have a mental health care problem. Funding for mental health services continues to decrease. This young man had a history of problems and was not able to get the help he needed.

Third, we have a parenting problem. Violence amongst kids is increasing and there is a level of disrespect that I am having a difficult time comprehending. Kids are being openly defiant to parents and teachers, disrespecting everyone, and acting as if they rules are nothing more than soft suggestions. Furthermore, there is a serious lack of discipline. I know that if I asked even half as bad as some of these kids when I was there age, my parents would have made sure that my attitude went 180 degrees instantaneously. But today society founds on parents being strict with their parents. I see it all the time with how some of the kids in my kid's cubscout pack act. I have had parents ask me why I would not let my son do this or do that, and why is it that whenever I need to talk to him about his actions or his attitude, he responds with Yes Sir or No Sir. I could go on, but I will just let a Teacher of the Year from FL explain it… (LINK)

Finally, we have a social problem. There have been 22 people shot and killed and 69 shot and wounded in Chicago since the beginning of February. There was 26 murders in Baltimore in January 2018. But why does not not make national news. Idiots are posting selfies holding guns as if they are some type of gangster. But we are in such a hyper-PC world that people are not willing to speak up against someone out of fear of being labeled or verbally attacked. There is evil in this world but so few people are willing to do anything about it because their actions might offend someone. Kids are more likely to be ostracized if they are reading a bible in school than if they are playing something like Grand Theft Auto. Since when is it more acceptable to glorify violence and murder than express your faith?

What are your thoughts. Do you seriously think that this issue is just a gun problem, or do you think that the gun is the tool of choice for a much larger and more significant problem and more so, why do you think or feel the way that you do?
Click to expand...

Mental health care isn't the real problem with mass shootings despite the sorry state of mental health care in this country. Neither is disrespectful students nor poor parenting. Mass shootings in the US are overwhelmingly committed by angry white American-born males who are filled with hatred for some group -- blacks, immigrants, gays, co-workers, etc. (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/) Their politics strongly tend to be alt-right or white nationalist, and the frequency of mass shootings has increased as the presence of hate groups on the web has increased, allowing bigots to find like-minded haters that reinforce and embellish their hatred.

That's an indictment of the Right's policies over the last three decades. They have exploited the bigotry existing in American society and promoted the use of firearms as "protection" against other people to almost religious status as well as demonizing their political opponents in order to win elections ... and it's an easy step for some into the hate mongering of the alt-right and white nationalism.

If mental illness, disrespectful kids or poor parents were truly causes of mass shootings, the shooters would be far more diverse in sex, race, and politics. Instead, they look like a significant segment of Republican voters, especially those who support Donald Trump.
 
Linda_D said:
Mental health care isn't the real problem with mass shootings despite the sorry state of mental health care in this country. Neither is disrespectful students nor poor parenting. Mass shootings in the US are overwhelmingly committed by angry white American-born males who are filled with hatred for some group -- blacks, immigrants, gays, co-workers, etc. (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/) Their politics strongly tend to be alt-right or white nationalist, and the frequency of mass shootings has increased as the presence of hate groups on the web has increased, allowing bigots to find like-minded haters that reinforce and embellish their hatred.

That's an indictment of the Right's policies over the last three decades. They have exploited the bigotry existing in American society and promoted the use of firearms as "protection" against other people to almost religious status as well as demonizing their political opponents in order to win elections ... and it's an easy step for some into the hate mongering of the alt-right and white nationalism.

If mental illness, disrespectful kids or poor parents were truly causes of mass shootings, the shooters would be far more diverse in sex, race, and politics. Instead, they look like a significant segment of Republican voters, especially those who support Donald Trump.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I never bought the mental illness angle in ANY of these recent shootings. As I predicted in my "70 Trump Predictions Thread" from November, 2016, Trump has basically given the green right to all racist/white supremacist groups to inflict as much carnage as possible. Just like ISIS. And it looks like those groups like the Alt-Right and individuals (like Cruz and Alex Fields) are taking that to heart with others like Bundy waiting in the wings.

5995a9ccb0e0b591758b4da7-750-562.jpg
 
Wow, the hate and the demonizing is on full display here at Cyburbia. Yeah, just lump 50% of the electorate in with psycho killers and continue with the identity politics and the politics of division all while ignoring the fact that pretty much every mass shooter in the last 20 years had a well-documented history of serious mental illness. That’s a really productive way to solve the problem.
 
From dispatch monitoring website -

PD: We are aware of, and investigating, separate threats made against multiple (my fair city) high schools.
Dispatch has been inundated with calls about the threats.
We have the basic info. We are now seeking info on a suspect or suspects. If you have specific info, please call PD.
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Also local tv -

According to (adjacent county) dispatch, their third shift got the call about the possible threat and they took every precaution. Law enforcement determined the threat was not credible and originated outside of their jurisdiction.
School officials tell us the school is on top of this and multiple armed officers are on the scene
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Has the level of social threats gone up for your fair city schools ?
 
From the Indy Star -

Indiana schools see a rush of reported gun threats after Florida mass shooting
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...hreats-after-florida-mass-shooting/350499002/

"It's the copycat thing," said Indiana State Police spokesman ....., who said police historically have seen increased threats after mass shootings. "When something is in the news, when something is fresh in peoples' minds, it increases the threats...Even if someone thinks it's a joke, we don’t think it’s funny."

At least 10 Indiana districts have investigated either a real or rumored copycat threat since Feb. 14. At least four people have been arrested as a result, and more arrests could be coming.

after a conference call with other state school safety leaders that there were "probably 100" copycat threats being investigated nationwide on Monday alone.
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illinoisplanner said:
just lump 50% of the electorate in with psycho killers and continue with the identity politics and the politics of division all while ignoring the fact that pretty much every mass shooter in the last 20 years had a well-documented history of serious mental illness. That’s a really productive way to solve the problem.
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I'm unsure where you're getting your facts, but there's almost no correlation between mass shootings and serious mental illnesses.
Here are a few cites supporting this contention by folks that actually study mental illnesses and violence:

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...hooting-and-the-myth-the-violent-mentally-ill
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/fact-check-parkland-gun-violence-mental-illness.html
http://time.com/5162927/mass-shootings-mental-health-apa/
http://www.businessinsider.com/florida-shooting-does-mental-illness-lead-to-violence-2018-2

Do you have any evidence or documentation that purports to demonstrate "every mass shooter in the last 20 yeas had a well-documented history of serious mental illness?"
An essential part of productively finding solutions to problems is to ensure that the same data/facts are shared. As Moynihan once aptly noted "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
 
The biggest problem is that we as humans need to assign a cause for everything. In reality, there probably isn't one common overarching cause to this violence. It's a multitude of causes. It is stupid to claim the availability of guns isn't part of it, so is mental illness, so is society's devaluing of human life. Video games that desensitize us to killing has a role. Communicating electronically where we don't really interact on a personal level makes it easier to kill. The fix isn't banning this or that, it needs a societal sea change. There isn't a fix that satisfies our need for instant gratifications.
 
I hope these MSD kids stay angry and active, and I really hope adults don't try to co-opt them. I think they might be our single best hope to end run the NRA and the shills in Congress and result in legislation that begins to make a difference.

Meanwhile, here in Gundiana, our legislature is debating allowing college students/faculty/staff to carry guns on campus.:-c:-|:-x:not:
 
Gedunker said:
I hope these MSD kids stay angry and active, and I really hope adults don't try to co-opt them. I think they might be our single best hope to end run the NRA and the shills in Congress and result in legislation that begins to make a difference.

Meanwhile, here in Gundiana, our legislature is debating allowing college students/faculty/staff to carry guns on campus.:-c:-|:-x:not:
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We're already past that debate, we allow them. We're on to declaring that transgender is not a choice. Your gender is declared by God. This would be local GOP and hasn't hit the statehouse yet.
 
Maister said:
I'm unsure where you're getting your facts, but there's almost no correlation between mass shootings and serious mental illnesses.
Here are a few cites supporting this contention by folks that actually study mental illnesses and violence:

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...hooting-and-the-myth-the-violent-mentally-ill
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/fact-check-parkland-gun-violence-mental-illness.html
http://time.com/5162927/mass-shootings-mental-health-apa/
http://www.businessinsider.com/florida-shooting-does-mental-illness-lead-to-violence-2018-2

Do you have any evidence or documentation that purports to demonstrate "every mass shooter in the last 20 yeas had a well-documented history of serious mental illness?"
An essential part of productively finding solutions to problems is to ensure that the same data/facts are shared. As Moynihan once aptly noted "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
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There is no correlation between mass shootings and mental illness?!? On what planet do you live? Regardless of the revisionist history of the fake news media, nearly every prominent mass shooter of the past 20 years in the U.S. had some record of mental illness. A quick search through the well-referenced Wikipedia articles for the Columbine shooting, the VA Tech shooting, the NIU shooting, the Fort Hood shooting, the Gabrielle Giffords shooting, the Aurora CO shooting, the Sandy Hook shooting, the Pulse nightclub shooting, the Las Vegas massacre, the Charleston church shooting, the Sutherland Springs church shooting, and the Douglas High School shooting or the articles for their respective perpetrators, you will see that in every case that the shooter had some history of mental illness and also in many cases exhibiting violent and disturbing behavior prior to the attacks. Sane people don’t just go killing other people. While their motives may have varied, while their choice of gun may have varied, while their targets may have varied, and while yes even their race/ethnicity varied (it’s not just WASPy whites...it’s Asian, Hispanic, and Arabic too), the common thread in all of these is mental illness.
 
illinoisplanner said:
There is no correlation between mass shootings and mental illness?!? On what planet do you live? Regardless of the revisionist history of the fake news media, nearly every prominent mass shooter of the past 20 years in the U.S. had some record of mental illness. A quick search through the well-referenced Wikipedia articles for the Columbine shooting, the VA Tech shooting, the NIU shooting, the Fort Hood shooting, the Gabrielle Giffords shooting, the Aurora CO shooting, the Sandy Hook shooting, the Pulse nightclub shooting, the Las Vegas massacre, the Charleston church shooting, the Sutherland Springs church shooting, and the Douglas High School shooting or the articles for their respective perpetrators, you will see that in every case that the shooter had some history of mental illness and also in many cases exhibiting violent and disturbing behavior prior to the attacks. Sane people don’t just go killing other people. While their motives may have varied, while their choice of gun may have varied, while their targets may have varied, and while yes even their race/ethnicity varied (it’s not just WASPy whites...it’s Asian, Hispanic, and Arabic too), the common thread in all of these is mental illness.
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True, but the act that the level of mental illness in other countries is similar to the US, yet we have many more of these incidents. See, for every theory that is brought up, there is a valid counter argument. The issue is much more complicated than any of us want to believe. There is no one solution. The vast majority of citizens believe we could do better with background checks and communication between law enforcement agencies. Running to our "ban AR15s" and "the only solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" corners accomplishes nothing. Like I said in my last post, saying it's a gun problem or it's a mental health problem is very short sighted and doesn't get us anywhere.
 
I find it completely fascinating that incidence of mental illness does not discriminate based on sex, yet 98% of mass shootings are perpetrated by men (and particularly white men). This is something that requires study. Another thing that needs to be remembered is not all mental illnesses manifest themselves in the same way. Even within those illnesses, symptoms exhibit in wildly different ways. You can take two people with the same diagnosis, and have completely different manifestations & potentials for harm (self or others).

I am a huge advocate for limiting gun access for individuals with mental illness. Not necessarily because of mass shootings, but because of rates of suicide by gun. A gun is, by far, the most effective & accessible method of ending one's life with no opportunity for regret/take-back. Likewise, there is a huge need for resources for those experiencing mental illness. Again, my belief in that need has little to do with mass shootings and more to do with issues of homelessness, suicide & addiction.

Of course we won't do shit for veterans, so what makes me think we'll do shit for the general population...
 
Trump dating site used sex offender as a model
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/20/trump-dating-site-used-sex-offender-as-a-model/

HIGHLIGHTS:
“MAKE DATING GREAT AGAIN! FIND YOUR PRO-TRUMP MATCH TODAY”

As of Monday, Trump.dating’s poster photo showed an authentic pro-Trump couple from North Carolina: Jodi Riddleberger in a pink MAGA hat, and her husband, Barrett –
whom the News & Observer subsequently reported has a 1995 conviction for “indecent liberties with a child.”

As of Tuesday, the Riddleberger’s photo had undergone a retraction from Trump.dating’s homepage.
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I agree that it is a multi-faceted problem and I'm all in favor of better background checks and ensuring the mentally ill don't have access to firearms. Still, all the assault weapons bans in the world wouldn't have prevented Timothy McVeigh from loading a truck with fertilizer and killing hundreds of people in Oklahoma, wouldn't have stopped the Tsarnaev Brothers in Boston, wouldn't have prevented 9/11, wouldn't have stopped the VA Tech shooter or the NIU shooter who used pistols and shotguns. I'm all about common sense gun laws, but I'm sorry, I just don't think this is a problem we as a society can simply legislate ourselves out of. As pointed out, it's a multi-faceted problem. Someone hellbent on killing themselves and taking down others with them will always find a way to do so. It's how do we prevent someone from going down that path. And if you don't think massive mental health reform, more thoughtful mental healthcare that goes beyond throwing psychotropic drugs at the problem, building stronger families and communities, showing more love, having stronger discipline and going back to the concept of "it takes a village to raise a child", and emboldening our law enforcement agencies instead of tying their hands are all a much bigger part of the solution, then I'm sorry, but I don't think you're serious about solving the problem then.

As for the racial stereotypes of mass shooter = white guy, as I've already pointed out, we have plenty of examples of Asians, Arabs, and Hispanics as mass shooters, not to mention what amounts to the equivalent of a mass shooting every weekend in Chicago in terms of number shot and number killed, most often in the form of black-on-black violence. As far as why men are more prone to violence than women, I can only presume it has something to do with science. Regardless, I don't know how helpful it is to overanalyze the demographics of violence when it doesn't really do much to solve the root problem of people killing other people and preventing them from going down that path in the first place. Once you're at the point of, "oh, well Johnny seems hellbent on killing as many people as possible, but, gee, what sort of weapon does he have access to?", it's already too late.
 
Florida Legislature said yesterday that they will not debate guns laws, but declared porn is considered dangerous.

I hope they masturbate with their gun and it goes off in their face.
 
My great congressman just said the price of freedom (owning guns) is having a few people hurt in a shooting once in a while. This is after he gave an impassioned speech about the sanctity of life and how abortion is wrong.
 
Billy Graham was SKETCHY AF. But I give him props for embracing civil rights and integrating his revivals at a time when it was NOT politically expedient to do so.
 
Planit said:
Florida Legislature said yesterday that they will not debate guns laws, but declared porn is considered dangerous.

I hope they masturbate with their gun and it goes off in their face.
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Well they we're probably already gleefully masturbating when they learned of the shooting. Florida GOP/NRA right-wingers really got off on that stuff, especially when learning that most of those killed where minorities.
 
Wayne LaPierre at CPAC this morning: "Their goal is to eliminate the 2nd Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate ALL individual freedoms."

The NRA represents gun manufacturer profits, not gun owners. Their solution is to turn schools into prisons functionally.

Also, this hyperbole will become self-fulfilling if the NRA doesn't come to the table with meaningful reforms. At some point, there will be an acknowledgement that the 2nd amendment is fundamentally flawed unless some significant reforms happen.

Also, there is only one party that has made curtailment of individual freedoms a plank of their platform, and it is the party in power. Oh wait, when they say individual freedom, they mean only the freedom to treat black, brown & gay people like shit while they have fever dreams of returning to segregated schools and pasty lunch counters.
 
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