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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Posted in the wrong thread...



But while I am here...



Being that it looks like Hillary will win the popular vote but lose the electoral college, do you think that there will be changes to the electoral college anytime soon?
 
When they go low, we go high

Thank you.

Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans.

This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for, and I’m sorry we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.

But I feel pride and gratitude for this wonderful campaign that we built together –- this vast, diverse, creative, unruly, energized campaign. You represent the best of America, and being your candidate has been one of the greatest honors of my life.

I know how disappointed you feel, because I feel it too. And so do tens of millions of Americans who invested their hopes and dreams in this effort. This is painful, and it will be for a long time. But I want you to remember this: Our campaign was never about one person or even one election. It was about the country we love -- and about building an America that’s hopeful, inclusive, and big-hearted.

We have seen that our nation is more deeply divided than we thought. But I still believe in America –- and I always will. And if you do, too, then we must accept this result -– and then look to the future.

Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.

Our constitutional democracy enshrines the peaceful transfer of power, and we don’t just respect that, we cherish it. It also enshrines other things –- the rule of law, the principle that we’re all equal in rights and dignity, and the freedom of worship and expression. We respect and cherish these things too -- and we must defend them.

And let me add: Our constitutional democracy demands our participation, not just every four years, but all the time. So let’s do all we can to keep advancing the causes and values we all hold dear: making our economy work for everyone, not just those at the top; protecting our country and protecting our planet; and breaking down all the barriers that hold anyone back from achieving their dreams.

We’ve spent a year and a half bringing together millions of people from every corner of our country to say with one voice that we believe that the American Dream is big enough for everyone -- for people of all races and religions, for men and women, for immigrants, for LGBT people, and people with disabilities.

Our responsibility as citizens is to keep doing our part to build that better, stronger, fairer America we seek. And I know you will.

I am so grateful to stand with all of you.

I want to thank Tim Kaine and Anne Holton for being our partners on this journey. It gives me great hope and comfort to know that Tim will remain on the front-lines of our democracy, representing Virginia in the Senate.

To Barack and Michelle Obama: Our country owes you an enormous debt of gratitude for your graceful, determined leadership, and so do I.

To Bill, Chelsea, Marc, Charlotte, Aidan, our brothers, and our entire family, my love for you means more than I can ever express.

You crisscrossed this country on my behalf and lifted me up when I needed it most –- even four-month old Aidan traveling with his mom.

I will always be grateful to the creative, talented, dedicated men and women at our headquarters in Brooklyn and across our country who poured their hearts into this campaign. For you veterans, this was a campaign after a campaign -- for some of you, this was your first campaign ever. I want each of you to know that you were the best campaign anyone has had.

To all the volunteers, community leaders, activists, and union organizers who knocked on doors, talked to neighbors, posted on Facebook - even in secret or in private: Thank you.

To everyone who sent in contributions as small as $5 and kept us going, thank you.

And to all the young people in particular, I want you to hear this. I’ve spent my entire adult life fighting for what I believe in. I’ve had successes and I’ve had setbacks -– sometimes really painful ones. Many of you are at the beginning of your careers. You will have successes and setbacks, too.

This loss hurts. But please, please never stop believing that fighting for what’s right is worth it. It’s always worth it. And we need you keep up these fights now and for the rest of your lives.

To all the women, and especially the young women, who put their faith in this campaign and in me, I want you to know that nothing has made me prouder than to be your champion.

I know that we still have not shattered that highest glass ceiling. But some day someone will -– hopefully sooner than we might think right now.

And to all the little girls watching right now, never doubt that you are valuable and powerful and deserving of every chance and opportunity in the world.

Finally, I am grateful to our country for all it has given me.

I count my blessings every day that I am an American. And I still believe, as deeply as I ever have, that if we stand together and work together, with respect for our differences, strength in our convictions, and love for this nation -– our best days are still ahead of us.

You know I believe we are stronger together and will go forward together. And you should never be sorry that you fought for that.

Scripture tells us: “Let us not grow weary in doing good, for in due season, we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.”

My friends, let us have faith in each other. Let us not grow weary. Let us not lose heart. For there are more seasons to come and there is more work to do.

I am incredibly honored and grateful to have had this chance to represent all of you in this consequential election. May God bless you and God bless the United States of America.

--Hillary ​
 
During lunch, some guys at the table over from me were arguing about the election results and one pointed out that he could not believe that the other voted for a womanizing SOB. The Trump supporter asked his lunch mate if he voted for Bill Clinton years ago.

It got me wondering what everyone else thinks about the comparison in the actions between the two and how they treat women.
 
michaelskis said:
During lunch, some guys at the table over from me were arguing about the election results and one pointed out that he could not believe that the other voted for a womanizing SOB. The Trump supporter asked his lunch mate if he voted for Bill Clinton years ago.

It got me wondering what everyone else thinks about the comparison in the actions between the two and how they treat women.
Click to expand...

Both are wrong. I am still confused though why what Bill has done in the past comes up when talking about Hillary. I certainly don't blame her for his misdeeds. When people bring that up, it just feels really sexist. If Hillary did it, I get it. But it isn't exactly comparable when your spouse did it. Even if you tried to defend him. Because that isn't the same. At all.

Trump has a lot of walking back to do. Let's see how fast he can moonwalk. If Hannity and their ilk get their way, we are all screwed. My hope is that he moves on from them to be more centrist. We shall see.
 
Hink said:
Both are wrong. I am still confused though why what Bill has done in the past comes up when talking about Hillary. I certainly don't blame her for his misdeeds. When people bring that up, it just feels really sexist. If Hillary did it, I get it. But it isn't exactly comparable when your spouse did it. Even if you tried to defend him. Because that isn't the same. At all.

Trump has a lot of walking back to do. Let's see how fast he can moonwalk. If Hannity and their ilk get their way, we are all screwed. My hope is that he moves on from them to be more centrist. We shall see.
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It doesn't have anything to do with Hillary... it has to do with Bill and Donald. People were talking about what Bush did when voting for Hillary, why not what Bill did. Granted I didn't vote for either of them, but it raises the question, does Bill get a pass when Donald does not? Personally, I don't think either of them should.



I have said it before, I don't think that Trump will be able to do as much as he thinks. This is the reason that we have the federal structure that we do with Checks and Balances. He does not have the political support to complete his agenda. I do think that Obamacare will be replaced within the first 100 days and I do think that several foreign trade deals will get renegotiated. Beyond that, if a wall on the Mexican boarder gets built, it will because Mexico wants to keep the US out.
 
michaelskis said:
Posted in the wrong thread...

But while I am here...

Being that it looks like Hillary will win the popular vote but lose the electoral college, do you think that there will be changes to the electoral college anytime soon?
Click to expand...

I don't feel that the electoral college is a fair representation of the people. It's almost as if the voices of those in smaller states are somehow diminished in the grand scheme of things. Presidential candidates spend the vast majority of their time in the swing states or battleground states because those are what they need to win. They very rarely canvass the entire country beyond the primary process which irks me to some degree. Why should those in Pennsylvania somehow be more important than those in Hawaii? The electoral college in and of itself only exists because at the time of its inception, people were still tentative about the democratic process.

I think the "more population more votes" is skewed too. Theoretically, you could have 100% turn out in Delaware, and only 20% in California, yet the California votes still count more than the Delaware votes.

That guy (McMullin?) in Utah got 20.5% of the vote in Utah. That is crazy.
 
michaelskis said:
I have said it before, I don't think that Trump will be able to do as much as he thinks. This is the reason that we have the federal structure that we do with Checks and Balances.
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However, both the House and Senate are Republican majority, and since Garlands Supreme Court nomination was held hostage, Trump will also get his own pick for that seat. The cards are certainly stacked in his favor, and will ultimately come down to how he can work with the republic establishment in Congress.
 
For me the difference between Bill and The Donald, when it comes to women, is how they approach it. Bill abused his power, which is wrong, but there was consent. Donald grabs and takes which leaves a lot of question on the consent thing. Not to mention the underage thing. :victory:

I'm just going to hope the rush of GOP crazy policies won't affect us too much. I'm sure Obamacare is out, but I'm not truly worried about that one. I hope they can actually get something accomplished rather than implement solutions looking for problems. I'm afraid of all the anti voting laws they'll come up with or challenges to our standing court cases like abortion or peoples rights. I'm worried about a free for all gun lobby and other strange new laws that open the door to things like banking with no oversight.
 
Apparently, Hispanic kids here stayed home from school today in droves. Can't say I blame them.
 
dvdneal said:
For me the difference between Bill and The Donald, when it comes to women, is how they approach it. Bill abused his power, which is wrong, but there was consent. Donald grabs and takes which leaves a lot of question on the consent thing. Not to mention the underage thing. :victory:

I'm just going to hope the rush of GOP crazy policies won't affect us too much. I'm sure Obamacare is out, but I'm not truly worried about that one. I hope they can actually get something accomplished rather than implement solutions looking for problems. I'm afraid of all the anti voting laws they'll come up with or challenges to our standing court cases like abortion or peoples rights. I'm worried about a free for all gun lobby and other strange new laws that open the door to things like banking with no oversight.
Click to expand...

If any of those things come to fruition there will be a strong backlash in 2020. With the gerrymandering that will occur in 2020, it might be better that Trump just does what he wants. If he removes people's healthcare, makes it harder to access providers for dangerous procedures, changes lots of social norms (gay marriage, right to choose, etc.), there will be backlash. He may think he wants to be President, but the governing thing is goign to be hard. And he is such a "like-me" junkie, that I think he will sway where ever he needs to to get the love he needs.

I agree about Bill BTW. Nothing he did was illegal. Just stupid. Cheating on your spouse isn't a crime. Grabbing someone against their will because you can, is a crime. That is the difference.
 
Hink said:
I agree about Bill BTW. Nothing he did was illegal. Just stupid. Cheating on your spouse isn't a crime. Grabbing someone against their will because you can, is a crime. That is the difference.
Click to expand...

Depending on which state it happens in, adultery might be a crime. Odds are it would not be prosecuted...


One thing that I am looking forward to is the hope for better candidates. No more Clintons, no more Bushes, and hopefully no more establishment career politicians.
 
michaelskis said:
Depending on which state it happens in, adultery might be a crime. Odds are it would not be prosecuted...


One thing that I am looking forward to is the hope for better candidates. No more Clintons, no more Bushes, and hopefully no more establishment career politicians.
Click to expand...

That's my sincere hope. That one or both parties get's it's head out and gives us electable candidates. I want to have a tough decision because I have some good people to vote for not because I have to figure out which one will do the least damage.

AG74683 said:
You're aware of Trump's sons right? This just skyrocketed their potential political careers through the roof.
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+o:)v:
 
michaelskis said:
Crap. They procreate don't they. You also have Chelsey in the mix now too.
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I'm waiting for Donald Trump Jr. to announce his mayoral run for NYC in the next month or so.

All this concern as to a GOP held Congress might be premature. There's no real proof that Trump will play ball with the GOP, he hasn't really done that yet anyways. If you seriously take a look at his long term policies and statements he's made prior to this election, he's solidly middle of the road to democratic in nature. By all accounts, he ran as a Republican just to get on the ticket (and because die hard rights love his rhetoric) but he's basically independent, a wild card.
 
I've taken the day to do some reflection. I still hear/read venom from certain people, which comes across as trolling and/or "ha ha told you so" - but we move on don't we.

Welcome to a new country and a new world. I still believe he is uniquely unqualified to lead this country. However, the people have spoken. That is the risk of democracy. That is also its greatest asset.

We are Americans first. He has tapped into legitimate fears in our country - most specifically income inequality. His successes and failures will be those of our country.

Putin congratulated him early this morning. Chatter on ISIS sites is increasing positive that he was elected. Stock market dropped.

It is up to him to lead and to set the tone. I personally don't believe he has it in him. (Neither did Clinton by the way.) It is up to the people to support him where he is right and be in loyal opposition where he is not....loyalty to all America, not loyalty to parties or tribalism. We will see if we the people are up to the task.

Personally, I will continue to work to make my community a better place in spite of federal and state obstacles and with their assistance (as I do now). I will pray for my family and country. I will help The Girl to become the best woman/person she can be with guidance, support and love.

I will drink a couple really good beers tonight too.
 
Protests in NYC and Chicago resulting in police blockades and cops in riot gear? I guess they didn't listen to Hillary'some concession speech telling people to give him a chance to lead.
 
michaelskis said:
Posted in the wrong thread...



But while I am here...



Being that it looks like Hillary will win the popular vote but lose the electoral college, do you think that there will be changes to the electoral college anytime soon?
Click to expand...

Well I'm old enough to remember what happened in 2000, when Al Gore won the popular vote by a larger margin than what Hillary looks like she'll have, and the way the electoral college vote was finally decided was... interesting, to say the least. Given that all of that resulted in precisely zero reform to the current electoral college system, I'm not holding my breath.

michaelskis said:
During lunch, some guys at the table over from me were arguing about the election results and one pointed out that he could not believe that the other voted for a womanizing SOB. The Trump supporter asked his lunch mate if he voted for Bill Clinton years ago.

It got me wondering what everyone else thinks about the comparison in the actions between the two and how they treat women.
Click to expand...

There are differences between Bill Clinton and Trump's treatment of women:
* Bill didn't brag about it openly.
* There is no evidence I'm aware of that Bill used physical force to harass women.

However, there is another huge difference between the two scenarios, which has nothing to do with the moral standing of Bill vs. the moral standing of Donald. That difference is that Donald's actions were revealed before he was elected and Bill's were revealed after. In the 1990s, if it had come out that a major party candidate had done what Bill did before the election, he would've lost. In fact the party itself would've removed him from the race and inserted someone else to avoid tarnishing the party's image. In 2016, a womanizer openly brags about his actions, and not only remains the presidential candidate of a major party, but wins the election! That comes across to many people as an incredibly depressing reflection on the current values of our society.
 
Some early analysis of the popular vote totals (no link, lifted this off another message board):

Romney got 60.9 million votes. Trump got 59.6 million. But the national population has grown about 10 million since Romney ran (314 million in 2012, 324 million today). We would expect the GOP vote total to grow by 2 million or so as a result, but instead Trump actually lost 1.3 million votes versus Romney. That's about 3.3 million people who should have voted for Trump but didn't. Pretty terrible candidate, right?

Not so fast my friend. Obama got 65.9 million votes in 2012. Hillary only got 59.8 million votes. That's 6.1 million people who actually got off the couch and voted for Obama, but couldn't be bothered to do so for Hillary. And again, given population trends, her total should have been up around 2 million, or 67.9 million. She only got 59.8. That's 8.1 million people who should have been voting for Hillary, but didn't. Hillary failed to get 13.5% of the people who should have been voting for her. More than 1 in 7 "Hillary voters" didn't vote for Hillary.
Click to expand...

"More than 1 in 7 "Hillary voters" didn't vote for Hillary" - did apathy from the Bernie Bros doom Clinton?
 
bentobox34 said:
There are differences between Bill Clinton and Trump's treatment of women:
* Bill didn't brag about it openly.
* There is no evidence I'm aware of that Bill used physical force to harass women.

However, there is another huge difference between the two scenarios, which has nothing to do with the moral standing of Bill vs. the moral standing of Donald. That difference is that Donald's actions were revealed before he was elected and Bill's were revealed after. In the 1990s, if it had come out that a major party candidate had done what Bill did before the election, he would've lost. In fact the party itself would've removed him from the race and inserted someone else to avoid tarnishing the party's image. In 2016, a womanizer openly brags about his actions, and not only remains the presidential candidate of a major party, but wins the election! That comes across to many people as an incredibly depressing reflection on the current values of our society.
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Well, that is a load a crap.


He was a celebrity when he made the comments on the bus and yes, he is a jackass and overall all a very low moral person. I didn't vote for him, I don't like him, and I think he will make a lousy president. However, Bill Clinton was a sitting president who engaged in sexual activities in the oval office, and then lied to the american people about it on national TV.

Additionally, there were the following:
  • Juanita Broaddrick indicated that in 1970 when she was a volunteer for Bill Clinton, she was raped by him.
  • Paula Jones filed charges that were dismissed by a friend of Clintons
  • Kathleen Willey stated that she was groped by Bill Clinton without her consent in the Oval Office

Let's face it, the reason that Trump won isn't because all these people voted for him, but because a good part of the population voted against Hillary Clinton. So all the whiney liberals want to blame someone blame the DNC for allowing the Clinton Machine to do what they did. Then hold on because it is going to be a bumpy 4 years.
 
It's a good day in America to be a white guy married to a trust fund baby? So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

I'm holding out hope that something even worse comes to light between now and December 19th when the Electors cast their official votes and they just decide they cannot put him in office. Maybe this will be the time the Electoral College actually saves us? (I know that's not really going to happen, but I can dream, right?)
 
WSU MUP Student said:
It's a good day in America to be a white guy married to a trust fund baby? So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

I'm holding out hope that something even worse comes to light between now and December 19th when the Electors cast their official votes and they just decide they cannot put him in office. Maybe this will be the time the Electoral College actually saves us? (I know that's not really going to happen, but I can dream, right?)
Click to expand...

Well, this CNN editorial thinks that it is not as doom and gloom as people think.
Liberals, chill out about Trump victory

In terms of the protests, can someone explain the purpose to me? Do these people actually think that it will result in something? Will they protest like this for 4 years?
 
michaelskis said:
He was a celebrity when he made the comments on the bus and yes, he is a jackass and overall all a very low moral person. I didn't vote for him, I don't like him, and I think he will make a lousy president. However, Bill Clinton was a sitting president who engaged in sexual activities in the oval office, and then lied to the american people about it on national TV.
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My question is, why should anyone's sexual indiscretions become public business? This stuff should stay between the man/woman, his/her wife/husband, and whomever he/she committed the indiscretion with and their family. I mean I get it, he was sitting President of the United States, but I hardly feel that this affected his job performance. The main issue stems from him lying about key items under oath, now THAT is a problem.

As for President-Elect Trump, I believe he will actually do whatever it takes to be called a good President. This election for him was all about the Trump brand. If he leaves the White House as one of the worst presidents in history, or with a dismal approval rating, the brand is tarnished, and the entire reason for his quest to become President would be wasted. His own vanity will drive him to be a good President. I actually think he'll be tactful about his decisions too. I don't think he'll lean too far outside of the middle despite his outlandish claims during the election cycle because that could spell disaster to his ratings. He's going to work with Congress to appeal Obamacare because he knows that's a goldmine when it comes to national approval, but I don't think he'll be too quick to slash funding in certain areas like he's claimed, particularly with things like the EPA and Planned Parenthood because those two are hot buttons and could cause a stir. I could see him gutting the DoE mostly because the state of education in this country is downright dismal and most people (IMO) share that opinion.
 
… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the Roman People have abdicated our duties; for the Roman People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses

Juvenal, 100 AD
 
Bubba said:
Some early analysis of the popular vote totals (no link, lifted this off another message board):



"More than 1 in 7 "Hillary voters" didn't vote for Hillary" - did apathy from the Bernie Bros doom Clinton?
Click to expand...

Obama didn't have Gary Johnson and Jill Stein as strong as they were this election. That again probably plays into the weak Clinton argument. She was just a bad candidate from start to finish. It wasn't as though Trump was a good candidate.


--

I also think it will be interesting to see how Trump deals with the clear conflicts of interest. When he opens any business anywhere else, will his company get preferential treatment? He can hand the company to his kids, but that is a joke if you think that means he isn't involved....
 
Hink said:
Obama didn't have Gary Johnson and Jill Stein as strong as they were this election. That again probably plays into the weak Clinton argument. She was just a bad candidate from start to finish. It wasn't as though Trump was a good candidate.


--

I also think it will be interesting to see how Trump deals with the clear conflicts of interest. When he opens any business anywhere else, will his company get preferential treatment? He can hand the company to his kids, but that is a joke if you think that means he isn't involved....
Click to expand...

But I think it took from both sides quite a bit. I know a ton of people who normally vote R who voted for Johnson this time because frankly, they could not stomach voting for Trump. Additionally Jill Stein was not on ballots in all 50 states.

I think it comes down to the realization that people rather pull the pin and drop the grenade than deal with 4 to 8 years of the same thing. I think that concept went beyond party lines and frankly beyond rational thought for some. Also if you look at the age breakdown older people voted for Trump and younger people voted for Clinton. These are the same people who lost their doctors and saw their insurance premiums skyrocket because of Obamacare. My Grandfather and his brother (rural living while males) did not vote in 2012 because they did not like either candidate, however they both hated the idea of the continuation of Obamacare and did not trust Hillary and the political establishment anymore to lookout for their values. (Work hard, get good grades, keep quiet and keep your head down). My dad commented that this was the most politically charged he had ever seen them, and it wasn't because they liked Trump, it was because the despised the continuation of the same.


I honestly don't think it had as much to do with Hillary as much as it had to do with the past several administrations. Donald Trump won the nomination against the other republicans and then did the unthinkable and beat Hillary and the Clinton Machine because he wasn't a politician, he wasn't going to play by their rules, and he wasn't going to be politically correct. There is a good portion of America who gets up and does the jobs that no one else wants to do, they work hard, stay out of trouble, and for the most part, go unnoticed. They may not have a college education or a fancy house, but odds are a good number of them are worth more than you and I. Moreso, odds are if they walked off the job, the world would stop. They are the utility linemen, the plumbers, those who work in the manufacturing industry, truck drivers, bus drivers, garbage men, farmers, mechanics... and so on. They were not included in the polls because no one asked them what they thought, and moreso I think very few actually liked most of what Donald said, but they knew that a vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for the continued progression of the political establishment.
 
Maister said:
Dude, FYI insurance premiums were skyrocketing years before the ACA ever existed. There is no causal link here.
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Pardon me sir, but that is a total load of crap and you and I both know it. Step out of angry liberal land into reality.


Under Obamacare, people had to be covered for stuff that they would never use. A buddy of mine who lives in Central Wisconsin noticed that his coverage includes prenatal care. The irony is he is a single man who had cancer and cannot physically have children. My dad's insurance rates had small increases every year until Obamacare was implemented, then it was double digit percentage increases. My rates went up more than double the percentage rates from before Obamacare.

Oh and there is all of this too.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...nsurance-medicine-0911-jm-20160909-story.html
http://www.investors.com/politics/e...ailing-exactly-the-way-critics-said-it-would/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2016/05/30/obamacare-is-failing-on-purpose/#5edebf03edd1
http://theweek.com/articles/645004/why-obamacare-failed
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guyben...could-be-within-one-year-of-collapse-n2207836
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/426550/obamacare-dead-kevin-d-williamson
http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/07/obamacare-exchanges-states-north-carolina-000162
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...-underperformance-in-a-nutshell/#33a006245d23
http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-obamacare-is-failing-1445858647
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439169/aetna-obamacare-failure-proved-again
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/04/opinion/atlas-obamacare-poor-middle-class/
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/28/opinions/obamacare-has-failed-mcconnell/index.html


So unless you have actual data showing that it is not a failure and it has not resulted in the increased cost of health insurance in US, don't bother trying to get me to call it anything other than what it is. A total epic failure and something that I have been opposed to since day one.
 
LOL

michaelskis said:
...saw their insurance premiums skyrocket because of Obamacare.
Click to expand...

Yeah. You aren't getting away with this sneaky bit of spin. Insurance companies were slamming all of us with double digit increases for well over a decade before Obama showed up. Oh and they we're dropping people at the first sign of trouble, not signing up people with pre-exisiting conditions. Remember how full emergency rooms were before the Affordable Care Act? HSA's are for completely healthy people that are able to stockpile enough money to make them work. Now there are only a couple of MONSTER insurance companies left in the USA. Kind of hard to expect "competition" from two or three companies. What you will get is regional market collusion like we have now.

One other note: Have you ever really tried to understand how HSA's work on the ground and in real life? They expect you to "negotiate" rates with the physician, hospital, clinics, lab and anyone else that charges a fee. The majority of American's can barely tie their shoe laces, let alone navigate the medical billing industry. Insurance companies have made the rules SO complicated by design, that people just accept whatever they can get.
 
The One said:
Yeah. You aren't getting away with this sneaky bit of spin. Insurance companies were slamming all of us with double digit increases for well over a decade before Obama showed up. Oh and they we're dropping people at the first sign of trouble, not signing up people with pre-exisiting conditions. Remember how full emergency rooms were before the Affordable Care Act? HSA's are for completely healthy people that are able to stockpile enough money to make them work. Now there are only a couple of MONSTER insurance companies left in the USA. Kind of hard to expect "competition" from two or three companies. What you will get is regional market collusion like we have now.

One other note: Have you ever really tried to understand how HSA's work on the ground and in real life? They expect you to "negotiate" rates with the physician, hospital, clinics, lab and anyone else that charges a fee. The majority of American's can barely tie their shoe laces, let alone navigate the medical billing industry. Insurance companies have made the rules SO complicated by design, that people just accept whatever they can get.
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The previous situation was far from perfect. But Obama made it substantially worse. As for how things work on the ground, yea, as the person who negotiated all my mom's medical bills while she was dieing of cancer, I think I know a thing or two about the process.

Obama took something that was part of the free market and passed a law requiring that be buy it. The only reason that it is constitutional is because despite Obama repeating that it was not a tax, SCOTUS determined that yes, it is constitutional because it is a tax.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQMkOScXctY

OR have you forgotten all about that.


I think that the government needs to be involved in the prevention side of things... not the treatment side. But their is no lobbyist money in that, so it never sees the light of day.
 
Well the unthinkable happened. All I can say is that I am glad I left the country when I did. I pray that checks and balances, logic and bipartisanship somehow manage to prevail, We shall see what path the country takes.

Van Jones was right that this was a WHITELASH, populism in its most virulent and reprehensible form. The Alt-Right devils who use polemics against the "other" successfully blindsided heartland voters, tired of politics as usual, that it is the brown people who took their jobs and their american dreams, and that multiculturalism not neoliberal voodoo economics is responsible for the ever rusting rust belt. For these demagogues, the Breitbarts and the Steven Crowders, I wish cancer upon all of them. Not every Trump Voter is a Klansman, these are every day people who are sick of getting a raw deal, but every Klansman is a Trump Voter and this is where the real danger lies. I hope a strong popular movement can take hold to show people that there is another way, that they dont have to be "deplorables". Adding insult to injury, The Democrats had a real chance to reach the desperate masses with Bernie Sanders, but their hubris and elitism shot themselves right in the ass.

Hillary was a dirty rotten candidate from the very beginning and I guess the only silver lining to this is that now her political career is DONE.

Here is a song by one of the most reviled American white nationalist Oi bands from Pennsylvania the ARRESTING OFFICERS. Read the lyrics and tell me how it is any different from Trump's "they are rapists, grab them by the pussy" demagoguery.



They don't fly our flag or speak the language
They take our jobs and they don't pay taxes
It's an act of war when they cross the border
So pledge allegiance or be deported.

The evil has landed, we gotta fight back
The border patrol will take care of that
The evil has landed, we gotta fight back
close the borders to the immigrant attack

They set up shop and sell their
drugs and their murders
while they stand in live to have welfare serve them
They don't join the nation, they try to divide her
They take from the pockets of their only providers

They storm the cities and bring
their poverty and disease
and blame the nation not the land from where they came
It's not give and take, they're taking over
It's time for the white man to stand together

Parasites are holding the country
hostage
with affirmative action they know they've got us
We built the nation that they want to take away
They undermine the culture of the home of the brave

Sounds exactly like a Trump campaign anthem doesn't it? These are words of NEO NAZI SKINHEADS, the same ones that the Trump campaign refused to repudiate. For the longest time this ideology was considered fringe, the bleeding hearts, the ADL and ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, all assuring us that these poisonous ideas would never prevail in the land of the free. But look at us now? Booing "Born in the USA" at Trump rallies, this goes beyond patriotism it is pure jingoism.

I sure hope that this starts the real Political Revolution, one that goes beyond elections as the only solution to our political problems.

Oh and btw, Hey IllinoisPlanner, enjoy living under Fascism bro!

-Terminator Out-
 
The One said:
Yeah. You aren't getting away with this sneaky bit of spin. Insurance companies were slamming all of us with double digit increases for well over a decade before Obama showed up. Oh and they we're dropping people at the first sign of trouble, not signing up people with pre-existing conditions. ....
Click to expand...

After my employer's coverage ended, I tried to self-insure. Wasn't going to happen. Every company I approached informed me that I have a pre-existing condition and was therefore ineligible.

The irony is: they based this on my use of a Rx that, while developed to treat diabetes, is pretty good at mitigating pre-diabetic conditions. So if I hadn't used this compound, I would be insurable (and likely on the road to being diabetic). The people leveling these assessments were not MDs; they were youthful call center chair jockeys.

Also, I had injured my knee (that healthful physically-active lifestyle stuff) and it was affecting my ability to continue avoiding diabetes, heart disease, and other inherited conditions.

In 2012 my ACA became a reality, and I had my torn meniscus repaired, followed by half of my carpal tunnel issues and a bunion. 2013 saw the other bunion, and 2014 was the other wrist and several hand issues.

There is no way I could have had these procedures done without insurance, and that would have been impossible without the ACA.

IMG2351.jpg

For the past couple of days the insurance issue has been forefront in my mind.
 
gtpeach said:
I know people, my mother included, that voted for Trump telling themselves that he would surround himself with intelligent people that would help him make good decisions. After reading this, I am terrified. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/who-is-in-president-trump-cabinet-231071

The environment, among other things, is going to be screwed.
Click to expand...

I am not comfortable with several of the names on that list. I don't think that dismantling the EPA will be as high on his to-do list as some of the other stuff.


Going back to restructuring the electoral college concept. I can see there being a stronger push to divide up things instead of a winner take all approach. That way places like Chicago and the congressional districts within the City will have a voice, and the rural areas can still have their own voice.
 
Veloise said:
The irony is: they based this on my use of a Rx that, while developed to treat diabetes, is pretty good at mitigating pre-diabetic conditions. So if I hadn't used this compound, I would be insurable (and likely on the road to being diabetic). The people leveling these assessments were not MDs; they were youthful call center chair jockeys.
Click to expand...

Ironically, medical professionals now push mitigating pre-diabetic conditions strongly, and in turn this actually helps LOWER insurance premium rates because these people aren't going into the insurance pool with diabetes that could have been prevented. A lot of hospitals and public health departments are pushing for pre-diabetes screenings in local businesses and factories to try and help people get on a regimen before it gets out of hand.
 
michaelskis said:
I am not comfortable with several of the names on that list. I don't think that dismantling the EPA will be as high on his to-do list as some of the other stuff.
Click to expand...

Can a president legally appoint his own children as cabinet members? I feel like that should not be a thing to do.
 
gtpeach said:
Can a president legally appoint his own children as cabinet members? I feel like that should not be a thing to do.
Click to expand...

I think he could try, but it would not fly.

US Constitution Article II Section 2, clause 2 states:

"He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments."

Overall, the Senate could say no.


EDIT... I was not aware of the law referencing JFK.
 
Forget any narratives about down and out factory workers or the forgotten cast-offs of globalization. The polling data is making it clear that this this is bullshit - this wasn't just a white working class revolt. Much of the petit bourgeoisie also turned out in force in support of Trump. I'm actually less bothered about the election result, horrible as it may be, than I am about the unmasking of who and what the "heartland" of America really is. My fellow countrymen must be strangers indeed if this could happen.

This is world historical in its significance. The post WWII international order is now going away. The American experiment of tolerant, multiracial democracy may be over as well as ethnic balkanization looms on the horizon. I weep for the future we could've had.
 
The Terminator said:
Van Jones was right that this was a WHITELASH, populism in its most virulent and reprehensible form.
Click to expand...

I ask this in complete seriousness because I don't see the difference. So when Hispanics and African Americans vote in blocks (and are encouraged to do so by their leaders) it's ok but if white people do it that's racism? What about all the African Americans who turned out to vote for Obama but were nowhere to be seen in this election? By your logic they were racists, only voting for the African American candidate.

I didn't vote for Trump but people need to calm TFD. My god, I've seen people ask "what do I tell my children?". Really? You tell them that's democracy in action and if you don't like what happened you work hard to make sure your candidate wins the next time. But no, let's riot, loot, set fires and vandalize others' property and keep your kids home from school. Yep, those are all reasonable responses.
 
MD Planner said:
I ask this in complete seriousness because I don't see the difference. So when Hispanics and African Americans vote in blocks (and are encouraged to do so by their leaders) it's ok but if white people do it that's racism? What about all the African Americans who turned out to vote for Obama but were nowhere to be seen in this election? By your logic they were racists, only voting for the African American candidate.

I didn't vote for Trump but people need to calm TFD. My god, I've seen people ask "what do I tell my children?". Really? You tell them that's democracy in action and if you don't like what happened you work hard to make sure your candidate wins the next time. But no, let's riot, loot, set fires and vandalize others' property and keep your kids home from school. Yep, those are all reasonable responses.
Click to expand...

White identity politics is not something that has existed prior to the current historical moment. This is its first emergence. Ethnic block voting is nothing new; the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc - all ethnicities later subsumed into the great mass of "whiteness" - they all did it. "White" block voting like this on a national level is something new. Really, this is the beginnings of a balkanized country. Whites now, for the first time, recognize themselves as having a collective interest and are willing to vote that interest.

People are asking what to tell their children because Trump's election shows that a bigoted, know nothing demagogue and sexual predator can attain the highest office in the land. He stands counter to every narrative of how one should make one's way through the world in an ethical way. THAT is why the explanation to a child is so agonizing.
 
MacheteJames said:
Forget any narratives about down and out factory workers or the forgotten cast-offs of globalization. The polling data is making it clear that this this is bullshit - this wasn't just a white working class revolt. Much of the petit bourgeoisie also turned out in force in support of Trump. I'm actually less bothered about the election result, horrible as it may be, than I am about the unmasking of who and what the "heartland" of America really is. My fellow countrymen must be strangers indeed if this could happen.

This is world historical in its significance. The post WWII international order is now going away. The American experiment of tolerant, multiracial democracy may be over as well as ethnic balkanization looms on the horizon. I weep for the future we could've had.
Click to expand...

Polling data was wrong from the start. Do you have hard data or is it just speculation?


MD Planner said:
I ask this in complete seriousness because I don't see the difference. So when Hispanics and African Americans vote in blocks (and are encouraged to do so by their leaders) it's ok but if white people do it that's racism? What about all the African Americans who turned out to vote for Obama but were nowhere to be seen in this election? By your logic they were racists, only voting for the African American candidate.

I didn't vote for Trump but people need to calm TFD. My god, I've seen people ask "what do I tell my children?". Really? You tell them that's democracy in action and if you don't like what happened you work hard to make sure your candidate wins the next time. But no, let's riot, loot, set fires and vandalize others' property and keep your kids home from school. Yep, those are all reasonable responses.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you just said. Based on the video that I saw from NYC and Chicago of the protesters, they were not older people but millennials who demand that we give them everything they want and they throw a fit like a baby if they don't get their way. Well you know what, I didn't get my way either... but I am not protesting. I am telling my kids that this is how elections work and that we don't need to settle for voting for a Republican or a Democrat because they are not the only people on the ballot. I am telling them that the new president is not a good man, but neither was the person he ran against.

MacheteJames said:
White identity politics is not something that has existed prior to the current historical moment. This is its first emergence. Ethnic block voting is nothing new; the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc - all ethnicities later subsumed into the great mass of "whiteness" - they all did it. "White" block voting like this on a national level is something new. Really, this is the beginnings of a balkanized country. Whites now, for the first time, recognize themselves as having a collective interest and are willing to vote that interest.

People are asking what to tell their children because Trump's election shows that a bigoted, know nothing demagogue and sexual predator can attain the highest office in the land. He stands counter to every narrative of how one should make one's way through the world in an ethical way. THAT is why the explanation to a child is so agonizing.
Click to expand...

Just think about it for a moment... as bad as he is and people still chose him over Hillary Clinton. What does that say about her?

In the narrative to the children, I think it is important to explain the corrupt structure of the federal government that goes beyond party lines. That money, special interest groups, and lobbyists are the real control in DC and everything else is an illusion. Be sure to tell them that it does not matter if you vote R or D for president, they won't help poor people and they won't make things better. If you want that to happen, you need to start it in your own home. You need to make America great and quit depending on someone in a White House to do it for you. Step up instead of whining about it.
 
Ok

michaelskis said:
Just think about it for a moment... as bad as he is and people still chose him over Hillary Clinton. What does that say about her?
Click to expand...

Easy. It tells me she is a woman. My evidence is backed up by the election results, her experience in public service vs. zero oh and this:
Trump got more hispanic votes than ROMNEY did!!!

Machismo anyone?

I5pb7z7.png
 
michaelskis said:
Just think about it for a moment... as bad as he is and people still chose him over Hillary Clinton. What does that say about her?
Click to expand...

Actually, "people" chose Hilary Clinton. The Electoral College, however, will vote for DJT on December 16th.

What does it say about her? It says that sexism and misogyny is still unbelievably rampant, that white women who voted DJT would rather stand for white nationalism than break a glass ceiling, and that twenty years of character assassination against a dedicated, if flawed servant of the establishment by the hard right was incredibly effective in making her toxic to middle America. That's what it says.
 
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