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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

The moderation needs a buzzer. The candidates kept going over their time or interrupting. Very rude. When the candidates time to answer the question is up, just turn on an annoying buzzer so no one can here the answer. I know they all wanted to get their time in, but that can only be helped with a smaller crowd. If they don't answer the question, ask it again, they don't get a new topic until they answer the question and they miss the change to speak on the other topics. Buzz them if they start going off the tracks of the question they are asked. For fun, give them points. Jeb Bush, what is your take on climate change? 10 points for trying to answer and a bonus 50 points if your answer is better than anyone's rebuttal. Lose 10 points for interrupting. Even better, make it a drinking game! Drunk candidates will start to forget the party line and actually be themselves.
 
That actually isn't a bad idea. Line all 11 up along a bar. They order their drink of choice from the bartender (which we can judge them on and also see their faces as they drink to see if they picked it for political reasons). They can move around and have conversations with each other in addition to with the bartender. No official debate moderator. Instead, the bartender will keep the conversation going. And I'm talking a legit bartender. Every 15 minutes he'll also order each of them a shot of their choice. Then each candidate gets a final 1 minute summation after which they down a flaming Dr. Pepper shot.

Then, unknown to them, they will be required to get in a taxi. They won't know they are still being recorded. Then we'll get to see how they treat a working stiff when they don't think they are being watched.
 
Jus watched Jimmy Fallon interview Hillary Clinton. I am disappointed in how much ass kissing happened during that interview. I am surprised Jimmy didn't ask for her autograph or something.

Normally, I like Fallon. Sad day...
 
Jus watched Jimmy Fallon interview Hillary Clinton. I am disappointed in how much ass kissing happened during that interview. I am surprised Jimmy didn't ask for her autograph or something.

Normally, I like Fallon. Sad day...

I do to, but I don't watch for the interviews. He is not a good interviewer because he wants to make everyone look good. He is good at making otherwise serious people be not serious with his games & what not. He just wants to have fun & entertain. That I really enjoy. Plus, he is generally recognized as one of the absolute nicest people in show business. I like that about him, but it does leave him ill-equipped for the hard hitting interview.

Stephen Colbert, on the other hand, appears to be bringing something pretty unique. I've been VERY impressed with his interviews so far--he is like a really funny Charlie Rose that gets reasonably deep, substantive answers out of people. I would really like to see him interview the Pope during his visit, though I won't get my hopes up on that.
 
I do to, but I don't watch for the interviews. He is not a good interviewer because he wants to make everyone look good. He is good at making otherwise serious people be not serious with his games & what not. He just wants to have fun & entertain. That I really enjoy. Plus, he is generally recognized as one of the absolute nicest people in show business. I like that about him, but it does leave him ill-equipped for the hard hitting interview.

Stephen Colbert, on the other hand, appears to be bringing something pretty unique. I've been VERY impressed with his interviews so far--he is like a really funny Charlie Rose that gets reasonably deep, substantive answers out of people. I would really like to see him interview the Pope during his visit, though I won't get my hopes up on that.

I have not seen Colbert yet. Do you know if the late show is on HULU or Netflix? I know CBS does not play well with some of these sites.
 
I have not seen Colbert yet. Do you know if the late show is on HULU or Netflix? I know CBS does not play well with some of these sites.

Oh I forgot about that. CBS has started their own goofy little streaming service CBS All-Access. I don't know much about it, but I bet that means you won't find it on Hulu or Netflix.

I bought a TiVO system a couple years ago when I essentially "cut the cord" so I could still DVR shows and use the device for streaming. I've been DVRing either Fallon or Colbert depending on who they each have on the show.
 
So the Muslim thing keeps coming up in the campaigns. First of all, I don't believe that Obama is Muslim, not sure exactly what faith he subscribes to, but it's not Muslim.

But it does raise an interesting question. Would you want a pro-sharia law president?
 
So the Muslim thing keeps coming up in the campaigns. First of all, I don't believe that Obama is Muslim, not sure exactly what faith he subscribes to, but it's not Muslim.

But it does raise an interesting question. Would you want a pro-sharia law president?

He is a Christian. Everyone knows that who isn't a right wing crazy. He is clearly a Christian.... :r:

I don't think your religion should matter. I personally am a Christian (a Catholic at that...gasp!), but don't like people talking about their faith. Look, if it informs your decision making, great. Don't tell me about it. Don't try and tie your religious beliefs to policy. Do something because you believe in it. If that belief comes from your moral center, which is informed by religion, awesome. If it comes from your Spaghetti Leader, awesome. If someone does something right, does it matter what their reasoning behind it is? Would you not support someone helping the poor, because they are doing it for their Zombie Overlord?

We should all try a bit harder to be willing to be accepting when it comes to Muslim culture. Islam is the #2 religion in the world.... America probably should accept it. Yes, there are a small fraction of Muslim's whom are extreme. I would imagine there is a fraction of Christians, Jews, etc. who would fall into the same category.

I would be supportive of a Muslim President if I liked his / her policies. I don't care that they use Qur'an to inform their beliefs instead of the Bible. Why should we? Are people opposed to a Jewish leader? A Morman leader? We once were opposed to a Catholic leader. Was that right?
 
So the Muslim thing keeps coming up in the campaigns. First of all, I don't believe that Obama is Muslim, not sure exactly what faith he subscribes to, but it's not Muslim.

But it does raise an interesting question. Would you want a pro-sharia law president?

He is a Christian. Everyone knows that who isn't a right wing crazy. He is clearly a Christian.... :r:

I don't think your religion should matter. I personally am a Christian (a Catholic at that...gasp!), but don't like people talking about their faith. Look, if it informs your decision making, great. Don't tell me about it. Don't try and tie your religious beliefs to policy. Do something because you believe in it. If that belief comes from your moral center, which is informed by religion, awesome. If it comes from your Spaghetti Leader, awesome. If someone does something right, does it matter what their reasoning behind it is? Would you not support someone helping the poor, because they are doing it for their Zombie Overlord?

We should all try a bit harder to be willing to be accepting when it comes to Muslim culture. Islam is the #2 religion in the world.... America probably should accept it. Yes, there are a small fraction of Muslim's whom are extreme. I would imagine there is a fraction of Christians, Jews, etc. who would fall into the same category.

I would be supportive of a Muslim President if I liked his / her policies. I don't care that they use Qur'an to inform their beliefs instead of the Bible. Why should we? Are people opposed to a Jewish leader? A Morman leader? We once were opposed to a Catholic leader. Was that right?



Wasn't this fine country found on the premise of religious freedom? Isn't there something in that Constitution document that says - what is it - oh yea, Freedom of Religion. :-x
 
Reports are in that Walker is dropping out of the GOP race. Remember when he was the favorite? That was short-lived.

We should start a Republican Presidential Nominee Death Pool and try to predict who will be the next of the candidates to drop out. My money is on Jindal (not counting Pataki or Chaffe).
 
Reports are in that Walker is dropping out of the GOP race. Remember when he was the favorite? That was short-lived.

We should start a Republican Presidential Nominee Death Pool and try to predict who will be the next of the candidates to drop out. My money is on Jindal (not counting Pataki or Chaffe).

Jindal should be the favorite, but I like Huckabee. Maybe I am just a fan of the dark horse.
 
Wasn't this fine country found on the premise of religious freedom? Isn't there something in that Constitution document that says - what is it - oh yea, Freedom of Religion. :-x

And that is one of the tricky things about sharia law. From what I have been told, it does not stop at religion. In places where this is the norm, it is part the local laws.

I would not have a problem with a president of any other religion as long as they don't limit my (or anyone's) freedom of religion.


The world will be better when Trump gets out of the race. He is only a distraction at this point in time.
 
The way I see it every religious doctrine practiced normally (key word) holds very similar moral values. Don't kill, steal, cheat, etc. Saying every Muslim wants sharia law is like saying every Jew is hasidic. If we're going to condemn each president for their religious beliefs then I don't want Catholics because they don't believe in birth control (no offense Hink), I don't want Jews because they believe in all the old testament laws like an eye for an eye. I'm sure I could find fault in every religion, but I'm obviously exaggerating to prove a point. You can't take any one practice from one religion and spread it across the entire spectrum of that religion like the news does. I'm not going to judge a person by what their professed religious doctrine says. I'll judge him by his actions and comments to see if they line up with my basic moral values.

To answer the basic questions though, no, America is not ready to except a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or anything else outside Christianity. Hell, we barely except the Jews and Catholics and don't get me started on how we bash the Mormons.

Sorry if I offended anyone, religious intolerance annoys me because it can be easily overcome with education and a basic attitude of letting everyone practice their religion how they want and doing what Jesus said, not judging others.

PS. All hail the flying spaghetti monster who's noodley appendage is making us debate the faults of other religions thereby supporting his own existence.
 
I have not seen Colbert yet. Do you know if the late show is on HULU or Netflix? I know CBS does not play well with some of these sites.

I caught Colbert interviewing Joe Biden and also his interview of Bernie Sanders. In both cases I thought he did a good job drawing them out to talk about the issues. His interview with Biden was very touching, since they both have experienced tragic losses of loved ones. Colbert kept it meaningful without being maudlin.

Colbert is a good interviewer, I think, and he is usually the quickest wit in the room.
 
The way I see it every religious doctrine practiced normally (key word) holds very similar moral values. Don't kill, steal, cheat, etc. Saying every Muslim wants sharia law is like saying every Jew is hasidic. If we're going to condemn each president for their religious beliefs then I don't want Catholics because they don't believe in birth control (no offense Hink), I don't want Jews because they believe in all the old testament laws like an eye for an eye. I'm sure I could find fault in every religion, but I'm obviously exaggerating to prove a point. You can't take any one practice from one religion and spread it across the entire spectrum of that religion like the news does. I'm not going to judge a person by what their professed religious doctrine says. I'll judge him by his actions and comments to see if they line up with my basic moral values.

To answer the basic questions though, no, America is not ready to except a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or anything else outside Christianity. Hell, we barely except the Jews and Catholics and don't get me started on how we bash the Mormons.

Sorry if I offended anyone, religious intolerance annoys me because it can be easily overcome with education and a basic attitude of letting everyone practice their religion how they want and doing what Jesus said, not judging others.

PS. All hail the flying spaghetti monster who's noodley appendage is making us debate the faults of other religions thereby supporting his own existence.

I am SOOO offended ;)

+1 to you my friend.
 
The way I see it every religious doctrine practiced normally (key word) holds very similar moral values. Don't kill, steal, cheat, etc. Saying every Muslim wants sharia law is like saying every Jew is hasidic. If we're going to condemn each president for their religious beliefs then I don't want Catholics because they don't believe in birth control (no offense Hink), I don't want Jews because they believe in all the old testament laws like an eye for an eye. I'm sure I could find fault in every religion, but I'm obviously exaggerating to prove a point. You can't take any one practice from one religion and spread it across the entire spectrum of that religion like the news does. I'm not going to judge a person by what their professed religious doctrine says. I'll judge him by his actions and comments to see if they line up with my basic moral values.

To answer the basic questions though, no, America is not ready to except a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or anything else outside Christianity. Hell, we barely except the Jews and Catholics and don't get me started on how we bash the Mormons.

Sorry if I offended anyone, religious intolerance annoys me because it can be easily overcome with education and a basic attitude of letting everyone practice their religion how they want and doing what Jesus said, not judging others.

PS. All hail the flying spaghetti monster who's noodley appendage is making us debate the faults of other religions thereby supporting his own existence.

I am not saying that all Muslims are going to push Sharia law. That is why I worded the question the way I did. I don't agree with Ben Carson's generality of the Muslim faith, but in a follow up comment, he did raise an interesting Sharia Law question.

As I have said before, I don't have any issue with preventative birth control. I am pro-choice up to the point of conception. I am opposed to abortive birth control and abortion. In either case, I don't want to pay for it with tax dollars.

I also think it is interesting that on one hand, you are saying that it is wrong to generalize people based on their faith, yet I think many of us are quick to generalize people on their politics. At a local level, I almost always vote D.
 
If hypothetically we elected a Muslim President, I don't see what/how that has anything to do with sharia law. The President doesn't pass laws as you know, and Congress is kinda hamstrung by the whole "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." thingy. If in some bizarre turn of events congress passed sharia law provisions and the Prez signs it, judicial review would be the next check/balance built into the system. If Congress decides to pass a law requiring all women to wear burkas or stone to death any woman accused of infidelity, and the President signs it, and the Supreme Court says it's okey dokey, then I guess there's nothing for it but to go down to the nearest corner mosque and submit to Allah's will.
 
The whole Sharia law thing is just a boogie man used to rally the base. It can't happen. We have a congress and a court that stop these things. I think too many people forget that there are three branches of gubmint and the Pres. doesn't actually make the laws, he just signs or vetoes them. I know I'm over simplifying again, but you get the point.

Political stereotyping I find interesting. When I lived in Phoenix I found people had unique views. You could class them as D or R, but mostly they were conservative and wanted less government. Here I find people a varying degrees of right from strict conservative to absolute libertarian. People here actually think there should be a single button in the voting booth to vote R (or D to be fair, knowing it won't happen). For the most part I can't stereotype individuals other than slightly right or left. When it comes to issues, you never know. I've met some very conservative people who aren't big fans of guns and believe some regulation is in order. Then I've met some that just follow the party line. It's America, believe what you want. I won't hold it against you. I'll just wait until you run for something and use it as blackmail later. :D

Now back to exciting politics, one more candidate gone. Can we get a pool going for how long it will take to drop down to say 4 people?
 
WAKE THE #U@% UP

Please distribute this to those WHITE males you may know that continue to let distractions PICK THEIR POCKETS!!!! For 40 YEARS NOW:

http://www.brookings.edu/research/o...1MDrQvMa1mimC65AkuhS1d21U0ILzw&_hsmi=22205960

xMSFt8c.jpg
 
Everyone remember to vote republican!

For what and why? This is what is wrong with this nation. Too many people subscribe blindly to one of two political ideologies. We don't even know who the candidates are and if the debates so far are any indication, not everyone has the same ideas or positions.

I much rather see all the letters dropped on ballots so people don't get to pick by party. Vote for a person, not some blanket concept that is not any better than the other blanket concept.
 
For what and why? This is what is wrong with this nation. Too many people subscribe blindly to one of two political ideologies. We don't even know who the candidates are and if the debates so far are any indication, not everyone has the same ideas or positions.

I much rather see all the letters dropped on ballots so people don't get to pick by party. Vote for a person, not some blanket concept that is not any better than the other blanket concept.

I'm sorry, what I meant to say is DON'T VOTE DEMOCRAT!
 
Ha!

Talk about a NO WIN job for the next speaker.....:D
Time to break out the popcorn and watch the rich white guys fight for themselves....:-|
 
Trump is hilarious.... this would be comedy gold, word for word.

So many quotes that are just hilarious....
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-60-minutes-scott-pelley/

Donald Trump: Let's say Ford-- let's say Ford moves to Mexico. If they want to sell that car in the United States they pay a tax. Here's what's gonna happen, they're not going to build their plant there. They're going to build it in the United States.

Scott Pelley: But there is a North American Free Trade Agreement.

Donald Trump: And there shouldn't be. It's a disaster.

Scott Pelley: But it is there.

Donald Trump: OK, yeah, but--

Scott Pelley: If you're president, you're going to have to live with it.

Donald Trump: Excuse me, we will either renegotiate it or we will break it. Because, you know, every agreement has an end.

Scott Pelley: You can't just break the law.

Donald Trump: Excuse me, every agreement has an end. Every agreement has to be fair. Every agreement has a defraud clause. We're being defrauded by all these countries.

Scott Pelley: It's called free trade--

Donald Trump: No it's not.

Scott Pelley: --and it is a plank--

Donald Trump: It's not the--

Scott Pelley: --of the Republican platform.

Donald Trump: Scott we need fair trade. Not free trade. We need fair trade. It's gotta be fair.


Scott Pelley: In your book, "The America We Deserve" you proposed raising the social security retirement age to 70. Is that still your plan?

Donald Trump: Yeah, not anymore because now what I want to do is take money back from other countries that are killing us and I want to save social security. And we're going to save it without increases. We're not going to raise the age and it will be just fine.

Scott Pelley: How are you going to do that? It is a basket case.

Donald Trump: Through capability. We will set it up by making our country rich again.

Scott Pelley: You know, the heart of all of your plans seems to be we're going to be rich.

Donald Trump: We are going to do great. As a country we are going to do great.
 
Union of Concerned Scientists VS Global Warming

In the 2010 comprehensive environmental rankings published by the Union of Concerned Scientists, an alliance of more than 250,000 citizens and scientists are working for a healthy environment. Volkswagen tied Toyota for the lowest smog-forming pollutant emissions.

According to the report, "The newer and cleaner diesel models that Volkswagen now offers will be technologies to watch—especially to see if they can beat out other companies' hybrids."

Climate Change Deniers should latch onto this fact as their SMOKING GUN and use this as STRONG evidence that the Union of Concerned Scientists did not do their homework before jumping on the VW bandwagon.

I'm just saying, if I was a nonbeliever about Global Warming and employed the type of logic the right uses, this quote would be on t-shirts everywhere:r:
 
In the 2010 comprehensive environmental rankings published by the Union of Concerned Scientists, an alliance of more than 250,000 citizens and scientists are working for a healthy environment. Volkswagen tied Toyota for the lowest smog-forming pollutant emissions.

According to the report, “The newer and cleaner diesel models that Volkswagen now offers will be technologies to watch—especially to see if they can beat out other companies’ hybrids.”

Climate Change Deniers should latch onto this fact as their SMOKING GUN and use this as STRONG evidence that the Union of Concerned Scientists did not do their homework before jumping on the VW bandwagon.

I'm just saying, if I was a nonbeliever about Global Warming and employed the type of logic the right uses, this quote would be on t-shirts everywhere:r:

I would like to see more studies done on the air and water impacts of large scale animal agriculture facilities. I can't call them farms because it is a glorified processing facility.
 
I have seen at least 5 anti-gun groups go political in light of today's shooting. I would be interested to hear their ideas of what could have been done to prevent today's tragic events and how they would implement those changes.

Expecially given that there has been almost no information regarding the weapons used, how they were obtained, the shooters history, or a possible motive. All we do know is that it was a gun free zone, the campus only had one security guard who was unarmed, and the shooter started outside by shooting through a window, and then got inside.
 
I seriously doubt this will ever stop!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/01/us/oregon-college-shooting/


It is yet another sad day and another tragedy in the USA. People will wring their hands. Politicians will pontificate. The NRA will say the solution is more people with guns. Nothing will come of it. Lessons will never be learned. Tomorrow or the next week will happen again, and no one, NO ONE will do a thing. This country makes me sick and hopeless!

The problem really isn't the guns or even the ready availability of guns. It is the people that infest this once wonderful land like a listless, brain-dead plague. It is you and it is me.

Americans love to say we have the greatest country in the world. It is not true. We really, truly do not have the greatest nation in the world. We probably don't even make the Top Ten of nations. We are a nation of selfish, angry, unempathetic people. We do nothing to make the country better. We just sit back covering our own personal agendas and say screw the rest of you. We turn a blind eye to violence. We deny science if it doesn't fit our bottom line. We applaud bigots for not doing their goddamn jobs. We try to defund Planned Parenthood with a pack of lies because I guess rich, white men hate poor young women.

Donald Trump should be President! He is just the kind of leader we deserve - a selfish, bigoted, shallow thinking asshole. Like a lot of Americans.

We need more, not less, immigration. We definitely need to improve our gene pool because who we are and what we are ain't cutting it anymore.

I no longer have hope or faith in this country. And no faith or hope in the supposed greatness of our people. We just lucked out on finding a new land with rich resources. We are or were great because of that. Certainly not by the merit of our character or the wisdom of our people.

If the Founding Fathers could see what we have turned into, they would call their Grand Experiment a whopping Big Failure!
 
I have seen at least 5 anti-gun groups go political in light of today's shooting. I would be interested to hear their ideas of what could have been done to prevent today's tragic events and how they would implement those changes.

Expecially given that there has been almost no information regarding the weapons used, how they were obtained, the shooters history, or a possible motive. All we do know is that it was a gun free zone, the campus only had one security guard who was unarmed, and the shooter started outside by shooting through a window, and then got inside.

I think the frustration is that we can't even talk about it as something that is wrong with our country because of the 2nd Amendment. Look we have a problem. That doesn't mean we throw away the 2nd Amendment, but it does me we need to look for solutions. The time has come for doing MUCH more to protect ourselves from ourselves.

Sane people don't shoot other people. Obviously this guy was nuts. You can't stop nuts. But we can find out how he got the weapons and body armor, and find out if he was in legal possession of these items, and then find out what we can do to make it harder for individuals like him to purchase them.

Just another sad tragic event. I agree we can't prevent them all. But we certainly can do a better job. Honestly, we aren't even trying. At all.
 
I think the frustration is that we can't even talk about it as something that is wrong with our country because of the 2nd Amendment. Look we have a problem. That doesn't mean we throw away the 2nd Amendment, but it does me we need to look for solutions. The time has come for doing MUCH more to protect ourselves from ourselves.

Sane people don't shoot other people. Obviously this guy was nuts. You can't stop nuts. But we can find out how he got the weapons and body armor, and find out if he was in legal possession of these items, and then find out what we can do to make it harder for individuals like him to purchase them.

Just another sad tragic event. I agree we can't prevent them all. But we certainly can do a better job. Honestly, we aren't even trying. At all.

Everything you said makes sense and I agree. But the big question is how. I have made it no secret that I support some level of gun reform and background checks for the purchase of any pistol or many of the semiautomatic weapons. But I think that there needs to be a real balance to it. Problem is this issue is so emotional for people on both sides of the debate that they are not willing to listen to reason. The anti-gun people have put forth bills that would make it almost impossible to get a weapon for law abiding citizens whereas some of the super 2nd amendment side want to push for no background checks what so ever.

What I do know is the following:
  • Gun Free Zones don't work. With the exception of the shooting that injured Gabby Gifford in AZ, every other mass shooting over the past 50 years has been in a gun free zone. A criminal is not going to follow the law on a sign if he is out to kill people. There is documentation of people going past same venues that were not gun free zones to the gun free zones to commit shootings.
  • Too many people buy guns and have no idea on how to keep them properly secured. When people buy a gun, there should be some requirement for the dealer to explain to the buyer how to keep a gun locked up. This is one expensive. I have 3 lock boxes that can each hold a 1911 that cost me $20 each. A person is downright stupid if they can't do this whenever the gun in their physical possession.
  • There are too many people suffering from a mental issue that is going untreated and they are able to obtain guns. There events and situations in our society where particular rights are suspended. A felon cannot own a gun. I think it should be the same for someone who has been clinically diagnosed with a mental disorder. All that needs to happen is the doctors should be able to click on a box for the same online database that gun shops use do to background checks.
  • I think we need to have a real discussion about religious terrorism. From what I heard on the news this morning, the shooter was asking people about their religion and was targeting Christians. I am not saying that other faiths should not own guns, but I think we need a better understanding of where the threats are coming from.
 
45 school shootings in 2015 - even MTV news covers this.
294 mass shootings (4+ people) - washington post
9,956+ gun related deaths - http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ Even if you take out the police shootings, defensive shootings, etc. you still have 2,626 gun deaths.

As a father I can tell you the answer is not more guns on campus. My kids should feel safe going to school and not worry weather the teacher will have to use their gun today. The answer is responsible gun laws. Figure out why school shootings are so prevalent, find out why guns are in the wrongs hands and stop it. At this point if that means no guns in America and repealing the 2nd amendment, so be it. I would gladly give up my gun rights for my kids safety and to see those 10 kids that died yesterday back in the arms of their parents.

Today I will be writing a letter to send to all my representatives. Not a form letter, something personal. I can no longer support a candidate who does not support gun law reform. Judging by the right wing radio this morning they won't listen, but it has to be done. They would rather blame the increase on Obama's presidency or declare everything would be better if everyone carried guns. For all these 2nd amendment gun nuts, reform gun laws before it's your kids and before America just gets fed up and repeals the 2nd amendment.

I know here I'm preaching to the choir, but change has got to happen.
 
45 school shootings in 2015 - even MTV news covers this.
294 mass shootings (4+ people) - washington post
9,956+ gun related deaths - http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ Even if you take out the police shootings, defensive shootings, etc. you still have 2,626 gun deaths.

As a father I can tell you the answer is not more guns on campus. My kids should feel safe going to school and not worry weather the teacher will have to use their gun today. The answer is responsible gun laws. Figure out why school shootings are so prevalent, find out why guns are in the wrongs hands and stop it. At this point if that means no guns in America and repealing the 2nd amendment, so be it. I would gladly give up my gun rights for my kids safety and to see those 10 kids that died yesterday back in the arms of their parents.

Today I will be writing a letter to send to all my representatives. Not a form letter, something personal. I can no longer support a candidate who does not support gun law reform. Judging by the right wing radio this morning they won't listen, but it has to be done. They would rather blame the increase on Obama's presidency or declare everything would be better if everyone carried guns. For all these 2nd amendment gun nuts, reform gun laws before it's your kids and before America just gets fed up and repeals the 2nd amendment.

I know here I'm preaching to the choir, but change has got to happen.

What does gun reform look like to you? What specific changes would you suggest? To call for gun reform without suggestions is like asking an arsonist to turn up the heat.

I don't think that making guns illegal is the answer either. It has not worked with drugs, it didn't work with alcohol, and it won't work here. I am not saying that Teachers need to be armed, but I think that they should be given the choice IF they go though an advanced level of training with background checks and the weapon is concealed. Additionally, the gun free zone signs need to come down. That shooter knew that he would be the only one with a weapon in that location yesterday. Same thing hundreds of other shootings over the past 50 years. Why isn't there mass shootings in places that are not gun free zones? Give people the ability to defend themselves IF they have completed an advanced level of training (which includes background checks).
 
<SNIP>

Americans love to say we have the greatest country in the world. It is not true. We really, truly do not have the greatest nation in the world. We probably don't even make the Top Ten of nations. We are a nation of selfish, angry, unempathetic people. We do nothing to make the country better. We just sit back covering our own personal agendas and say screw the rest of you. We turn a blind eye to violence. We deny science if it doesn't fit our bottom line. We applaud bigots for not doing their goddamn jobs. We try to defund Planned Parenthood with a pack of lies because I guess rich, white men hate poor young women.

Donald Trump should be President! He is just the kind of leader we deserve - a selfish, bigoted, shallow thinking asshole. Like a lot of Americans.

We need more, not less, immigration. We definitely need to improve our gene pool because who we are and what we are ain't cutting it anymore.

I no longer have hope or faith in this country. And no faith or hope in the supposed greatness of our people. We just lucked out on finding a new land with rich resources. We are or were great because of that. Certainly not by the merit of our character or the wisdom of our people.

If the Founding Fathers could see what we have turned into, they would call their Grand Experiment a whopping Big Failure!

otterpop is dropping a truth bomb this morning! You reap what you sow... we have a serious cultural problem in this country--like our whole damn country suffers from acute narcissistic personality disorder.
 
This is part of the problem, isn't it?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/01/us/oregon-college-shooting/


It is yet another sad day and another tragedy in the USA. People will wring their hands. Politicians will pontificate. The NRA will say the solution is more people with guns. Nothing will come of it. Lessons will never be learned. Tomorrow or the next week will happen again, and no one, NO ONE will do a thing. This country makes me sick and hopeless!

The problem really isn't the guns or even the ready availability of guns. It is the people that infest this once wonderful land like a listless, brain-dead plague. It is you and it is me.

Americans love to say we have the greatest country in the world. It is not true. We really, truly do not have the greatest nation in the world. We probably don't even make the Top Ten of nations. We are a nation of selfish, angry, unempathetic people. We do nothing to make the country better. We just sit back covering our own personal agendas and say screw the rest of you. We turn a blind eye to violence. We deny science if it doesn't fit our bottom line. We applaud bigots for not doing their goddamn jobs. We try to defund Planned Parenthood with a pack of lies because I guess rich, white men hate poor young women.

Donald Trump should be President! He is just the kind of leader we deserve - a selfish, bigoted, shallow thinking asshole. Like a lot of Americans.

We need more, not less, immigration. We definitely need to improve our gene pool because who we are and what we are ain't cutting it anymore.

I no longer have hope or faith in this country. And no faith or hope in the supposed greatness of our people. We just lucked out on finding a new land with rich resources. We are or were great because of that. Certainly not by the merit of our character or the wisdom of our people.

If the Founding Fathers could see what we have turned into, they would call their Grand Experiment a whopping Big Failure!

My tirade got moved to the Neverending Political Discussion Thread. Never ending because it is an endless loop. Pause. Rewind, Repeat.The very place this discussion does not belong. We put it in the hands of politicians where it is sure to go NOWHERE. Where it will be buried under an avalanche of Second Amendment BS.

We need more people with more guns in more places, says the NRA. Because the solution to flooding is, of course, more water. The solution to an Ebola epidemic is to spread it around more.

My disgust continues. It truly is hopeless.
 
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"Additionally, the gun free zone signs need to come down. That shooter knew that he would be the only one with a weapon in that location yesterday." Actually, that community college allows weapons on campus. In Oregon, each campus has the authority to allow or prohibit weapons on its campus.
 
"Additionally, the gun free zone signs need to come down. That shooter knew that he would be the only one with a weapon in that location yesterday." Actually, that community college allows weapons on campus. In Oregon, each campus has the authority to allow or prohibit weapons on its campus.

Former U.S. Marshal Art Roderick suggested the gunman chose the campus for that very reason. He said, “He probably knew that the facility was a gun free facility, an easy target for these kinds of coward individuals. They know they’re not going to get any response unless they happen to run into security or a campus police officer.”

Furthermore, it was advertised as one by the college. A post on the Umpqua Community College website (which is currently down) outlines the fact that the campus was a gun free zone.

“Possession, use, or threatened use of firearms (including but not limited to BB guns, air guns, water pistols, and paint guns) ammunition, explosives, dangerous chemicals, or any other objects as weapons on college property, except as expressly authorized by law or college regulations, is prohibited. Possession of knives with a blade longer than 4” is prohibited. Brandishing weapons is prohibited. Misuse of personal defensive weapons – e.g., pepper spray, etc. is prohibited. The owner is responsible and accountable for any misuse of these devices.”

This campus classified its self as being gun free zone.
 
What does gun reform look like to you? What specific changes would you suggest? To call for gun reform without suggestions is like asking an arsonist to turn up the heat.

I don't think that making guns illegal is the answer either. It has not worked with drugs, it didn't work with alcohol, and it won't work here. I am not saying that Teachers need to be armed, but I think that they should be given the choice IF they go though an advanced level of training with background checks and the weapon is concealed. Additionally, the gun free zone signs need to come down. That shooter knew that he would be the only one with a weapon in that location yesterday. Same thing hundreds of other shootings over the past 50 years. Why isn't there mass shootings in places that are not gun free zones? Give people the ability to defend themselves IF they have completed an advanced level of training (which includes background checks).

We can't make guns illegal. There is the 2nd Amendment. We have (although I think many would disagree with what the "framers" meant) determined that gun ownership outright is a right. They won't be illegal. But nowhere does it say they have to be easy to get. Nowhere does it say you have a right to use them without feeling uncomfortable. And it certainly doesn't say that we have to make you invisible when purchasing one.

My answer to you. Gun Reform is making owning a gun difficult. Very difficult. Yep. You have a right to own it. If you want to own it, go through the rigmarole. No I don't feel bad for you that you have to get a background check. No I don't feel bad that you have to get your gun inventoried. I don't feel bad that you have limits to the rounds you can buy. I don't feel bad that you have to go back annually for education and training.

Gun ownership is important. Honestly I support guns for hunting and recreational activities. But the idea that we can't making owning that gun really tough, or time consuming is crazy. We need to make the system transparent. The idea that we need to arm the world because we have crazy people is the stupidest and most over reported talking point. There is no evidence that doing this would make us safer. All it would do it make it more likely we have additional gun accidents.

We need to do something. Doing nothing because the NRA says we may lose our GOD GIVEN right to guns, is just irresponsible.
 
We can't make guns illegal. There is the 2nd Amendment. We have (although I think many would disagree with what the "framers" meant) determined that gun ownership outright is a right. They won't be illegal. But nowhere does it say they have to be easy to get. Nowhere does it say you have a right to use them without feeling uncomfortable. And it certainly doesn't say that we have to make you invisible when purchasing one.

My answer to you. Gun Reform is making owning a gun difficult. Very difficult. Yep. You have a right to own it. If you want to own it, go through the rigmarole. No I don't feel bad for you that you have to get a background check. No I don't feel bad that you have to get your gun inventoried. I don't feel bad that you have limits to the rounds you can buy. I don't feel bad that you have to go back annually for education and training.

Gun ownership is important. Honestly I support guns for hunting and recreational activities. But the idea that we can't making owning that gun really tough, or time consuming is crazy. We need to make the system transparent. The idea that we need to arm the world because we have crazy people is the stupidest and most over reported talking point. There is no evidence that doing this would make us safer. All it would do it make it more likely we have additional gun accidents.

We need to do something. Doing nothing because the NRA says we may lose our GOD GIVEN right to guns, is just irresponsible.

I agree with much of what you posted with the exception of very difficult. I think it should be safe and strict, but not difficult. Why punish people who are safe with their guns when you are trying to weed out those crazy's. I agree with the training requirement to own a handgun or semiautomatic weapon. 410 shot gun, not so much. But I think that there needs to be more on the other end two. For example, I would not be opposed to a CPL requirement to buy a handgun. A person may not carry, but the training they get in that class would be very valuable. However I think that there should be a multiple level CPL where if a person completed advanced level of training and further background checks, it would allow them to carry in places that they carry right now. However, as I have posted before, gun free zones do not work. It is a statistical fact. For a few years the highest gun violence rates were in Cities that prohibited guns, all but 1 mass shooting in the past 50 years was in a gun free zone (be it law required or otherwise), and if someone is going to show up to take another persons life, the last thing that will detour them is a stupid sign.

I don't support the NRA for many reasons, their position on background checks is one of them.
 
Before I start anything, this conversation is the definition of insanity. We keep doing and saying the same things and expecting a different result. It's time for a change. I've emailed my senators and representatives, but given the right wing nature of them all I expect no response or the usual 2nd amendment BS political statement.

We can't make guns illegal. There is the 2nd Amendment.

I have to call BS on that. It's an amendment. By definition we can change it. Granted I don't think that's the answer here, but we can ban all guns be repealing the 2nd amendment - not going to happen though.

What does gun reform look like to you? What specific changes would you suggest? To call for gun reform without suggestions is like asking an arsonist to turn up the heat.

Let's start with lifting the ban on researching gun violence. Yes, we should actually spend some federal dollars to research and develop a solution. That shows the degree of this pro gun stupidity in this country.

Recognize that more Americans are killed by Americans with guns or by accident or by suicide than those killed fighting terrorists, killed by terrorists, or subjected to a crime by an immigrant. Stop the shiny object arguments and solve real problems of people getting killed.

Recognize that more guns equals more violence. Kansas and Oklahoma have more gun violence per capita than New York and New Jersey. Why, because they have stricter gun laws. You can drop the mic on that one.

The gun free zone argument is BS. Gun violence happens where the person has some connection. It happens in schools because young people don't have the mental help they need and get easy access to guns to commit a crime against the people that supposedly wronged them. I'm betting this new shooting will show some connection between the shooter and the school. It's either that or the shooters are picking locations based on some badly conceived belief that these people are doing something wrong like the shootings at church in SC or the Jewish center in KC. The whole argument is just a political talking point that doesn't solve anything. Granted gun free zones don't solve anything either. It's not like they physically stop people or have police checking it, but at least it's an attempt to slow down the violence.

Start a registration of gun owners. It's BS to say you can't. I have to be registered to vote and probably provide more information to get that done that I would need to own a gun in Kansas (your state may be different). My right to vote is absolute just like my right to own a gun so why do I register for the thing that isn't designed to be a lethal weapon? Why is my right to vote impinged on? People are afraid of voter fraud that has happened maybe once in the history of Kansas, but 9000+ gun deaths in the US, who cares. In the same vein, I go through more to get a driver's license than own a gun and definitely had more training (although i think that was limited too.) Legal gun owners should not be afraid of registration. It's not like the gubmint is tracking me based on my driver's license (other than jury duty). It will also help track 2nd hand sales and help police track guns back to the murderer. I know, horrible ideas to actually help police solve gun related murders.

Ban fully automatic weapons (sorry Mskies). Rifles are made for hunting and pistols are made for defense. Granted I think a good 12 gauge is the best home defense. The knock down power will stop any intruder and I don't have to aim. Anything fully automatic is made for assault. We can ban selected classes of firearms. The 2nd amendment will allow it. If not, why doesn't every gun nut own an RPG or have a personal tomohawk missile. They are just bigger arms that we have a right to after all.

Require a safety class to own weapons. Yes, before you can be registered, you must pass a safety class that says you're smart enough to own a gun. That might be a little harder depending on current gun law rulings, but it would not slow down the honest gun owner.

Set an age limit. Kids under 18 cannot carry a gun without an adult nearby. Maybe have an exception for hunting, but that's it. You can't vote until you're 18, that means your full rights aren't in effect until 18. That means no guns until you're 18.

Start a database of the mentally ill that is checked during background checks. This gets more complicated based on peoples rights, but we have a no fly list, why not a no gun list. List all felons and those sent by the courts for mental illness help of some kind as a start. We have to start telling people, no you can't own a gun. You lost that right because...

Give the FBI more time and the tools it needs to do a thorough background check. The kid in SC got by on his because of a technicality. Honest gun owners won't mind. It's only a nuisance the first time.

Fully enforce the gun laws we have on the books. That means actually funding the agencies that need to do this.

Stop lifting gun regulations everywhere. Arizona legalized guns in bars because drinking and guns is a smart idea.
 
Before I start anything, this conversation is the definition of insanity. We keep doing and saying the same things and expecting a different result. It's time for a change. I've emailed my senators and representatives, but given the right wing nature of them all I expect no response or the usual 2nd amendment BS political statement.
I would agree, I also think in some cases, common sense is surpassed by emotion and lack of understanding.

I have to call BS on that. It's an amendment. By definition we can change it. Granted I don't think that's the answer here, but we can ban all guns be repealing the 2nd amendment - not going to happen though.
That worked so well with prohibition. While we are at it, let's make drugs illegal too. I think it it was the year 1800 this might be possible, but there are too many guns out there and if they are made illegal criminals would step in. Some guns are illegal for most people to have, yet they are being imported from foreign places and sold on the black market. These are often used in smaller crimes, gang shootings, and are often associated more with drug problems. We can't secure our borders from illegal people coming over, do you honestly thing we can effectively stop guns?


Let's start with lifting the ban on researching gun violence. Yes, we should actually spend some federal dollars to research and develop a solution. That shows the degree of this pro gun stupidity in this country.
I agree 100%

Recognize that more Americans are killed by Americans with guns or by accident or by suicide than those killed fighting terrorists, killed by terrorists, or subjected to a crime by an immigrant. Stop the shiny object arguments and solve real problems of people getting killed.
I agree but I am not sure where you are going here. Gang and extremism are both good examples. I do think that we need to call things as they are. Ft. Hood was not workplace violence. Yesterday's shootings was a form of religious terrorism as he was targeting Christians to kill.

Recognize that more guns equals more violence. Kansas and Oklahoma have more gun violence per capita than New York and New Jersey. Why, because they have stricter gun laws. You can drop the mic on that one.
BS. Finland and Switzerland are also in the top 5 guns per capita along with the US, Yemen and Serbia. It is a culture issue more than a number issue. Guns don't shoot themselves.

The gun free zone argument is BS. Gun violence happens where the person has some connection. It happens in schools because young people don't have the mental help they need and get easy access to guns to commit a crime against the people that supposedly wronged them. I'm betting this new shooting will show some connection between the shooter and the school. It's either that or the shooters are picking locations based on some badly conceived belief that these people are doing something wrong like the shootings at church in SC or the Jewish center in KC. The whole argument is just a political talking point that doesn't solve anything. Granted gun free zones don't solve anything either. It's not like they physically stop people or have police checking it, but at least it's an attempt to slow down the violence.
I am going to call BS on your statement. The last two movie theater shootings, the shooter drove past the movie theaters that let people concealed carry to get to those that were gun free zones. Why? Because they knew that they would not have other people with guns in there. I agree there are places that should be gun free. Courts and airports for example make sense. However, many of the state fairs that, museums, public libraries, restaurants (and even sports bars), many local government buildings (in MI), movie theaters (in MI), and a host of other places are not gun free zones. How can you argue that with the exception of 1 situation, every other mass shooting in the past 50 years has been in a gun free zone. It does not slow them down.

Start a registration of gun owners. It's BS to say you can't. I have to be registered to vote and probably provide more information to get that done that I would need to own a gun in Kansas (your state may be different). My right to vote is absolute just like my right to own a gun so why do I register for the thing that isn't designed to be a lethal weapon? Why is my right to vote impinged on? People are afraid of voter fraud that has happened maybe once in the history of Kansas, but 9000+ gun deaths in the US, who cares. In the same vein, I go through more to get a driver's license than own a gun and definitely had more training (although i think that was limited too.) Legal gun owners should not be afraid of registration. It's not like the gubmint is tracking me based on my driver's license (other than jury duty). It will also help track 2nd hand sales and help police track guns back to the murderer. I know, horrible ideas to actually help police solve gun related murders.
I have zero problem with this. In MI, I had to register my pistol and it took maybe 30 seconds.

Ban fully automatic weapons (sorry Mskies). Rifles are made for hunting and pistols are made for defense. Granted I think a good 12 gauge is the best home defense. The knock down power will stop any intruder and I don't have to aim. Anything fully automatic is made for assault. We can ban selected classes of firearms. The 2nd amendment will allow it. If not, why doesn't every gun nut own an RPG or have a personal tomohawk missile. They are just bigger arms that we have a right to after all.
I have never said that general civilians should have fully automatic weapons. Either you are mislabeling me or you don't understand firearms. I have said that I would support some level of training and background check for the possession of any pistol or semiautomatic weapon. For example, my deer rifle that I am the most accurate with is a semiautomatic .308. It is a great gun and looks like most classic wood stock deer hunting rifle. I have no interest in owning a fully automatic weapon. What next, are you going to call me a republican?

Require a safety class to own weapons. Yes, before you can be registered, you must pass a safety class that says you're smart enough to own a gun. That might be a little harder depending on current gun law rulings, but it would not slow down the honest gun owner.
100% agree.

Set an age limit. Kids under 18 cannot carry a gun without an adult nearby. Maybe have an exception for hunting, but that's it. You can't vote until you're 18, that means your full rights aren't in effect until 18. That means no guns until you're 18.
I thought that is how it was now. It is in Michigan and NC anyways.

Start a database of the mentally ill that is checked during background checks. This gets more complicated based on peoples rights, but we have a no fly list, why not a no gun list. List all felons and those sent by the courts for mental illness help of some kind as a start. We have to start telling people, no you can't own a gun. You lost that right because...
I agree 100%

Give the FBI more time and the tools it needs to do a thorough background check. The kid in SC got by on his because of a technicality. Honest gun owners won't mind. It's only a nuisance the first time.
I mostly agree. In some states, the background check is lacking in MI, it wasn't.

Fully enforce the gun laws we have on the books. That means actually funding the agencies that need to do this.
100% agree

Stop lifting gun regulations everywhere. Arizona legalized guns in bars because drinking and guns is a smart idea.
How many shooting have happened at bars in AZ since this happened. Did they change the law regarding possession of a firearm and alcohol in your system? Last I checked, it was still illegal in AZ to be intoxicated and have a firearm.
 
This is all just fun online arguing so I hope you're not taking any of it personal. Especially since I have no idea what your gun collection consist of or what your actual views are. Sorry if I stereotyping you to far into the right wing Fox News is perfect and honest conservative Kansan I'm used to. It's not fair by me and by no means accurate. I'll buy you a beer sometime so you can throw it at me.

I think we both categorize fully automatic the same. You pull the trigger and it continues to fire until you release. Semi automatic means one pull for one shot referring to the fact the trigger activates the hammer and everything else (sorry if I'm not complete on my gun anatomy I haven't messed with guns since I was in the military).

Let's not compare other countries. Their culture is not ours. Besides, you always lose the argument when Australia gets brought up. No mass shootings since the 1st one. We need to find an American solution, not the Australian version of no guns (although honestly it wouldn't hurt my feelings to bad).

We can go round and round on the reasons and the value or lack there of in gun free zones and whatever else. When you refine all the cases one key point comes up every time. A gun was involved. The 2nd point is more than likely that the owner was crazy because no sane person goes around shooting people because of religious convictions, to act like a movie, because the teacher was mean a couple years ago or whatever. That's where our regulations need to focus and I think we tend to agree on that, just maybe not the exact framing of the gun thing. I look at the gun argument in two ways:

1. There's the old joke, I drank vodka and water on Monday and got drunk and you keep going for every day with some different alcohol. It's Sunday and I don't want to get drunk so I'll skip the water. It's not the water people. The biggest common denominator is the gun. Call it access to guns if you truly believe guns don't kill people, but it was the gun.

2. You don't here about to many mass knife incidents. That's because the story would read some guy was killed by a knife and so was the fat kid who couldn't run fast enough. The rest ran away. Some of these crazy people might like theaters and schools because of the captive audience, but you're right that a gun free zone sign isn't going to slow them down.

My problem with laws like Arizona is that it's political BS. They did it just so they could show they support the gun lobby. There was never a problem that came up saying hey, we should lift the ban on guns in bars. It's not like a bunch of shootings happened in bars so they decided to make sure everyone has access to a gun. Actually they banned guns in bars because of the number of shootings and the crime magically dropped. I don't know that the crime has increased as a result of lifting the ban, but I'll bet the beer you're going to throw at me the answer is yes. For me it's just another example of political BS and inviting stupidity to happen. You can't drink and drive, but you can drive to a bar, but that's a whole different problem that we as planners should be promoting mass transit for. Bars, the real reason for bus service.

For a lot of my comments, I really can't argue much, I don't know my own state laws well enough. I just know kids here are allowed to go out hunting with guns they own. Most likely their parents bought the guns. Those kids typically aren't the problem, but kids are just a little more emotionally unstable and not ready for a gun. Now get off my lawn.

My biggest point to this argument is start doing something. It might not be perfect, but perfect doesn't exist. Just put something out there that curbs gun violence in a meaningful way. Just lifting the ban on research would be a great start.

I wish our legislators would read this forum and I'm sure there are many others like this. Actual Americans talking about actual issues and even though we have different points of view we're still calling for some kind of action and are generally annoyed at the status quo because of political grid lock.
 
This is all just fun online arguing so I hope you're not taking any of it personal. Especially since I have no idea what your gun collection consist of or what your actual views are. Sorry if I stereotyping you to far into the right wing Fox News is perfect and honest conservative Kansan I'm used to. It's not fair by me and by no means accurate. I'll buy you a beer sometime so you can throw it at me.

I think we both categorize fully automatic the same. You pull the trigger and it continues to fire until you release. Semi automatic means one pull for one shot referring to the fact the trigger activates the hammer and everything else (sorry if I'm not complete on my gun anatomy I haven't messed with guns since I was in the military).

Let's not compare other countries. Their culture is not ours. Besides, you always lose the argument when Australia gets brought up. No mass shootings since the 1st one. We need to find an American solution, not the Australian version of no guns (although honestly it wouldn't hurt my feelings to bad).

We can go round and round on the reasons and the value or lack there of in gun free zones and whatever else. When you refine all the cases one key point comes up every time. A gun was involved. The 2nd point is more than likely that the owner was crazy because no sane person goes around shooting people because of religious convictions, to act like a movie, because the teacher was mean a couple years ago or whatever. That's where our regulations need to focus and I think we tend to agree on that, just maybe not the exact framing of the gun thing. I look at the gun argument in two ways:

1. There's the old joke, I drank vodka and water on Monday and got drunk and you keep going for every day with some different alcohol. It's Sunday and I don't want to get drunk so I'll skip the water. It's not the water people. The biggest common denominator is the gun. Call it access to guns if you truly believe guns don't kill people, but it was the gun.

2. You don't here about to many mass knife incidents. That's because the story would read some guy was killed by a knife and so was the fat kid who couldn't run fast enough. The rest ran away. Some of these crazy people might like theaters and schools because of the captive audience, but you're right that a gun free zone sign isn't going to slow them down.

My problem with laws like Arizona is that it's political BS. They did it just so they could show they support the gun lobby. There was never a problem that came up saying hey, we should lift the ban on guns in bars. It's not like a bunch of shootings happened in bars so they decided to make sure everyone has access to a gun. Actually they banned guns in bars because of the number of shootings and the crime magically dropped. I don't know that the crime has increased as a result of lifting the ban, but I'll bet the beer you're going to throw at me the answer is yes. For me it's just another example of political BS and inviting stupidity to happen. You can't drink and drive, but you can drive to a bar, but that's a whole different problem that we as planners should be promoting mass transit for. Bars, the real reason for bus service.

For a lot of my comments, I really can't argue much, I don't know my own state laws well enough. I just know kids here are allowed to go out hunting with guns they own. Most likely their parents bought the guns. Those kids typically aren't the problem, but kids are just a little more emotionally unstable and not ready for a gun. Now get off my lawn.

My biggest point to this argument is start doing something. It might not be perfect, but perfect doesn't exist. Just put something out there that curbs gun violence in a meaningful way. Just lifting the ban on research would be a great start.

I wish our legislators would read this forum and I'm sure there are many others like this. Actual Americans talking about actual issues and even though we have different points of view we're still calling for some kind of action and are generally annoyed at the status quo because of political grid lock.


I think that you are correct in that we both want something to change and in many of the cases we agree on many points of change.

The vodka story is good however I don't really see the connection. Yes, a common theme is a gun. With car accidents, is the common theme a car. I know people don't like that connection, but it is real. How many miles are cars driven in the US? How many rounds are fired by civilians where a crime is not committed? One common might be an inanimate object, but the more important common is the person who is in control of that object. That is why I can support background checks and training.

We have agreement on semiautomatic vs fully automatic. You referenced my desire to want fully automatic weapons to be legal... for the large part, they are not legal today and I don't think they should be legal for most people.

There are mass stabbings but that is a different crime. Most stabbings are more of a personal, intimate thing. Mass shootings are more along the lines of bombings where you don't have to be within arms reach of the victim.


BTW, I would never throw a beer at a person. I would say thank you and pick up the discussion. As Maister and many others can tell you, I don't get emotional with this stuff, and in many cases that is what people say is my downfall. I focus on logic over emotion in most situations. I actually enjoy these open discussions because when opposing views are expressed, common ground can often be achieved, and that can be the foundation for positive change.
 
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