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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

dvdneal said:
True, but that's just part of what makes this a wicked problem. Immigration policy has always moved with the market demand for labor. I'm in favor of picking one aspect and start finding a solution to that. I prefer the path to citizenship idea as step 1. Don't forget if we get it wrong we can always change it, but that will end up taking years of debate like everything else at the federal level.
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I don't think the US has ever had an immigration policy for our southern border other than "come one, come all". This has been dictated by Wall St. and the multinational and domestic corporations with their insatiable demand for cheap foreign labor. There is also the issue of H1-B visas which are being issued in large numbers to bring in cheaper foreign workers in spite of the fact that there are more than enough Americans qualified to fill most vacancies. Our immigration policy is hardly based on market demand, just corporate greed.
 
Lindsey Graham went on a bit about how bad The Donald is and said if we don't get him out of the race we won't win.

Who is "we" (I know but stay with me here)? Is we:
Lindsey Graham, presidential candidate and a future VP choice?
His family (wait he doesn't have one)?
South Carolinians?
Old white people?
Conservatives?
People who drive the same car he does or hobbies?
Republicans?
Humans / humanoids?



See this is my point, elections have totally become Reps v. Demos. It doesn't matter about anything else it seems.
 
The Donald is a laughing stock. The R's should be embarrassed, but they have to be careful, because he will win the ignorant racist type. He is saying things that sadly a lot of Americans think. If the R's push the Donald off, he might run as a 3rd Party and kill any chance they have to win.

Let him lose in the primary, don't try and scare him off yet.

Scott Walker is now in. Kasich is scheduled to enter on the 21st I believe. Two more R governors who have little name recognition, and lots of baggage.

If we get to 20 R candidates I think we really should have a debate with everyone getting 15 seconds each. I would like to think Rick Perry could handle that.


This is getting so silly I am having a hard time laughing at it all. Watching people around me get so incensed with how dumb the general public is saddens me. Most people don't see what I see on a daily basis.... :not::r:
 
Hink said:
The Donald is a laughing stock. The R's should be embarrassed, but they have to be careful, because he will win the ignorant racist type. He is saying things that sadly a lot of Americans think. If the R's push the Donald off, he might run as a 3rd Party and kill any chance they have to win.

Let him lose in the primary, don't try and scare him off yet.

Scott Walker is now in. Kasich is scheduled to enter on the 21st I believe. Two more R governors who have little name recognition, and lots of baggage.

If we get to 20 R candidates I think we really should have a debate with everyone getting 15 seconds each. I would like to think Rick Perry could handle that.


This is getting so silly I am having a hard time laughing at it all. Watching people around me get so incensed with how dumb the general public is saddens me. Most people don't see what I see on a daily basis.... :not::r:
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20 people in is proof that the Republicans are fragmented too much. They need to get their act together or they won't stand a change against Hillary. Which the thought of that scares the crap out of me.
 
michaelskis said:
20 people in is proof that the Republicans are fragmented too much. They need to get their act together or they won't stand a change against Hillary. Which the thought of that scares the crap out of me.
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Don't worry your pretty little heads Republican Party:-x

Hillary would end up being a love fest for corporate America, with just a hint of social policy that might rub R's the wrong way. All this equality talk from her is just talk.
 
My crackpot theory (we all have one - admit it) is that the pendulum of stupid swings between parties. As evidenced by election platforms over the past few attempts. There is always one candidate that stands out and has a platform and the other candidate is just running around yelling don't vote for that guy he's a (insert favorite party insult). How in the hell do you think Bush got elected. Twice! The D's were confused and had no platform. Now it's changed. Like Mskies said, get it together.
 
dvdneal said:
My crackpot theory (we all have one - admit it) is that the pendulum of stupid swings between parties. As evidenced by election platforms over the past few attempts. There is always one candidate that stands out and has a platform and the other candidate is just running around yelling don't vote for that guy he's a (insert favorite party insult). How in the hell do you think Bush got elected. Twice! The D's were confused and had no platform. Now it's changed. Like Mskies said, get it together.
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With the pendulum there is the assumption that one side isn't stupid. That is not the case when it comes to the Republicans or Democrats. One side is fragmented around confusion and inconstant direction. The other side is fearful of the "Clinton Machine' and their J Edgar Hoover like tactics. Neither side has anything good to offer the country. If the democrats were so freaking awesome, the income gap would have gotten better over the past 6 years. If the Republicans were so financially awesome, Obama would not have had any federal debt and odds are the financial crisis would not have happened. *** not blaming one party and the stupid fiscal concepts fannie mae and freddy mac along with "mark to market" were bi-partisan responses to changing pressures from big banks and the federal reserve. ***

My crackpot theory on it is those who sold out to their partly foundations are just puppets of special interest and campaign contributors. DC is paying the American people as Sheep. Trump is an outsider who does not play that game, but he lacks any concept of people skills, diplomacy, or reality for that matter. Sad thing is nothing will improve if any of the front runners are elected.
 
I have to admit I'm slowly becoming a believer that Sanders could give Clinton a run for her money. I've always liked him, but thought he was unelectable on a national level. I'm coming around now that we've seen him in action with his campaign. I've even got a few anti-establishment Republican friends that have started looking at him due to his support for regular folk and indications that he is not in anyone's pocket. They aren't switching sides by any means, but they are paying attention.

I think Hillary Clinton may be too smart for her own good--it is causing her to be too cautious and over-analyze. And I really feel like her campaign is operating about 10-15 years in the past. She seems very opaque & scripted... I haven't felt an ounce of passion from her. I haven't seen any indication of vision (also true of all GOP candidates at this point). I feel like I can tell where Sanders wants to go. I feel like I can actually believe what he says, and that he believes what he says.
 
ColoGI said:
To the media, he is a money-maker. To the GoOPers, he is free publicity. Win-win!
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I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that "there's no such thing as bad publicity" but didn't that quote in fact originate with the Donald?
 
When Scott Walker threw his hat in the ring I think the first questioned he got from the media was something about Trump. The Donald may be a horrendous human being but he's a cunning mofo. He's stealing the show from the 800 or so other GOP candidates and that's really what the primary is all about.
 
Planit said:
I don't know what to say in response, but this is so sad. The indignation in this is so very disheartening

http://gawker.com/ok-gop-very-sorry-you-misread-their-post-comparing-poor-1717892650
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I think people are just generally stupid. I am sure he didn't mean to compare people to animals, but he did. Instead of apologizing and saying that was stupid, he doubles down, and reminds us why his original point was right....


Politicians should make an effort not to make analogies because this happens a lot. You know, like Obama is a Nazi. :not::r:
 
In defense of Oklahoma...okay not really, but I hear the same issue here about food stamp bills. They're mad that it's tied to farm subsidies. How dare you tie a working man's god given federal subsidy with handing out free stuff to the freeloading minorities.
 
hilldweller said:
When Scott Walker threw his hat in the ring I think the first questioned he got from the media was something about Trump. The Donald may be a horrendous human being but he's a cunning mofo. He's stealing the show from the 800 or so other GOP candidates and that's really what the primary is all about.
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It's tough to judge the real impacts Trump is having on the Presidential campaign thus far. He's dominating headlines well in advance of the primaries and by staying in the spotlight for a prolonged time may draw support away from actual viable candidates. The bubba vote counts prominently in primary elections, but will he do lasting measurable damage to the GOP message that will affect outcomes somehow come general election time? I'm not sure that's happened yet, but the longer this side show goes on the more likely that prospect becomes. In the end I guess we'll find out once the latino vote is counted.
 
Trump leads the GOP polls, but would not beat Clinton? Link


What is happening???? Have we as a society gotten to the point there either of these people can be trusted to lead the US?
 
michaelskis said:
Trump leads the GOP polls, but would not beat Clinton? Link


What is happening???? Have we as a society gotten to the point there either of these people can be trusted to lead the US?
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The One provided the most candid assessment I've seen of what a Hillary win would really mean. She's a fairly well-known quantity at this point and we can expect few surprises from her. The Donald, on the other hand, is a dangerous sociopath. I don't mean that as hyperbole, I'm convinced he matches that psychological profile. God only knows what would happen if he ever got access to that kind of power.
 
Maister said:
... The Donald, on the other hand, is a dangerous sociopath. I don't mean that as hyperbole, I'm convinced he matches that psychological profile. God only knows what would happen if he ever got access to that kind of power.
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-reveal-wealth-details-071253975.html

He is in it for fame. He likes to tell people how rich he is. That doesn't exactly play well with people who don't have money. Also, his ego / psychological problems will end him. I cannot imagine why people are putting him on their lists when taking these polls. All this is doing is making the R's look more out of touch. Are there really people who would want Trump to be the United States of America's representative to the world? Who is okay with that?
 
Hink said:
... Are there really people who would want Trump to be the United States of America's representative to the world? Who is okay with that?
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There are absolutely people who would love for America to be represented by someone who "tells it like it is," and "wouldn't take any crap from the Russians," etc. Trump is like a fantasy candidate for all the Drunk Uncles out there.
 
Hink said:
I think people are just generally stupid. I am sure he didn't mean to compare people to animals, but he did. Instead of apologizing and saying that was stupid, he doubles down, and reminds us why his original point was right....
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He "didn't mean to compare people to animals"? Oh, I think that's very naive of you; he very well did intend to compare food stamp recipients to animals because that's the Republican mind-set these days, especially when they talk about people of color, and especially when so-called "conservatives" talk about people of color. Racism in the current GOP is becoming endemic as the country becomes more diverse, as witness Trump's surge in the polls based on his blatantly racist comments, sort of the "racists' last stand" as the tide turns, just like Ross Barnett and George Wallace made some political capital by "barring the schoolhouse doors" against segregation in the 1960s.

The reason that conservative Republicans like this moron from Oklahoma keep sticking their feet in their mouths with analogies is because they assume that everybody throughout the country shares their constituents' bigotry and their own ignorance. The fact is, the reason that the National Parks Service, and indeed, all wildlife experts, caution people against feeding animals in the public areas is not because they fear they'll become "dependent" but because they're afraid that wild animals will lose their fear of people and become aggressive.
 
All this Trump talk illustrates just how much mental illness there is these days. In fact, this topic could provide the next M. Naught Shamma Lamma Ding Dong movie. :-x

Planit said:
I don't know what to say in response, but this is so sad. The indignation in this is so very disheartening

http://gawker.com/ok-gop-very-sorry-you-misread-their-post-comparing-poor-1717892650
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One of my crazy Facebook "friends" had that show up the other day.......I wrote back something like:

I doubt people would need food assistance if their homes were packed to the rafters with food in the kitchen, living room, bathroom, garage, bedrooms, bathrooms, entryway, halls, dining area, back porch, front yard, back yard, side yards, roof, attic, basement and counter tops.

Get it?

What sick people.
 
The One said:
One of my crazy Facebook "friends" had that show up the other day.......I wrote back something like:

I doubt people would need food assistance if their homes were packed to the rafters with food in the kitchen, living room, bathroom, garage, bedrooms, bathrooms, entryway, halls, dining area, back porch, front yard, back yard, side yards, roof, attic, basement and counter tops.

Get it?

What sick people.
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I think that there needs to be a balance with this. The comparing homeless to animals was totally inappropriate. Living where I did, I witnessed both sides of the coin. There were some people who made very bad choices in the past and are now struggling to get by. However I have also witnessed a guy who just a day earlier ask me for money, do a drug deal on a side street.

Whenever a homeless person asks me for money for food, I always direct them towards the local food pantry, soup kitchen, or similar place. Some of these places not only have the ability to provide them food, but information to get their life back on track.
 
michaelskis said:
I think that there needs to be a balance with this. The comparing homeless to animals was totally inappropriate. Living where I did, I witnessed both sides of the coin. There were some people who made very bad choices in the past and are now struggling to get by. However I have also witnessed a guy who just a day earlier ask me for money, do a drug deal on a side street.

Whenever a homeless person asks me for money for food, I always direct them towards the local food pantry, soup kitchen, or similar place. Some of these places not only have the ability to provide them food, but information to get their life back on track.
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There is no balance. No one is broke or poor or hungry because they want to be. Making bad choices is certainly something that people do. Personal responsibility is pretty much out the window these days, but that does not mean that it is acceptable to demean people to the point of saying they are not people.

Doing drugs is bad. Asking for money instead of earning it is unfortunate, and I assume humiliating. My problem is when we determine that there is any value in arguments where we make these people feel like less of human beings because they are in the situation that they are in. There is not. These people may have made poor decisions. They may have had something horrible happen to them. Many of them have mental problems, where they are not capable of making what we would deem to be "good" decisions. Truthfully, I understand the argument that we need to get more people to pull themselves out of the hole, instead of helping them. But sometimes that hole is just too deep. As a human, as an American, I personally am acceptable to our government helping fill in the hole. Even if they are "lazy". Even if they are their because of their own choices.

I wouldn't give up my job to be broke and get "free" help. Primarily because that would be a HUGE reduction in my quality of life. Why would someone accept that quality of life if there wasn't more to that story.

What I find amazing is the strong support of churches and food pantries by republicans, but the utter indifference to a large portion of the population who really do need any help they can get.
 
Hink said:
There is no balance. No one is broke or poor or hungry because they want to be. Making bad choices is certainly something that people do. Personal responsibility is pretty much out the window these days, but that does not mean that it is acceptable to demean people to the point of saying they are not people.

Doing drugs is bad. Asking for money instead of earning it is unfortunate, and I assume humiliating. My problem is when we determine that there is any value in arguments where we make these people feel like less of human beings because they are in the situation that they are in. There is not. These people may have made poor decisions. They may have had something horrible happen to them. Many of them have mental problems, where they are not capable of making what we would deem to be "good" decisions. Truthfully, I understand the argument that we need to get more people to pull themselves out of the hole, instead of helping them. But sometimes that hole is just too deep. As a human, as an American, I personally am acceptable to our government helping fill in the hole. Even if they are "lazy". Even if they are their because of their own choices.

I wouldn't give up my job to be broke and get "free" help. Primarily because that would be a HUGE reduction in my quality of life. Why would someone accept that quality of life if there wasn't more to that story.

What I find amazing is the strong support of churches and food pantries by republicans, but the utter indifference to a large portion of the population who really do need any help they can get.
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I think that you mistook my concept of balance. I am of the mind that it is better to offer food and help, than just food alone. In almost every case, I am not able to offer help, thus I send them to someplace that can offer both. They may only be asking for food (or money for food) but in reality they really need both to break the cycle.

However, I think people to make that choice in an indirect way. They may not choose to end up there, but they can choose to stay there. When I was in GR, there were tons of resources to help people get off the street, off chemical dependence, and an opportunity for a better life. All they had to do was ask. These were not always faith based and were offered by several different non-profits. They were able to do wonderful work. A local urbanest group had a discussion with one of the directors of the nonprofit who brought in two guys who were successful on getting their lives back on track. They both said that it came down to a choice. They chose to get help, go to rehab, stay clean, and invest in themselves instead of addictions. I think the book and the movie Pursuit of Happyness is a great reminder of that.

In the book Tin Man to Iron Man, the author Christ Swanson really goes into depth regarding this concept. He talks about an elderly man who is homeless who spends his day collecting soda cans all day. He never asks anyone for anything but is able to 'make it' on his own. But several people have offered help and it was pride that got in the way of this homeless guy having a stable life.
 
michaelskis said:
However, I think people to make that choice in an indirect way. They may not choose to end up there, but they can choose to stay there. When I was in GR, there were tons of resources to help people get off the street, off chemical dependence, and an opportunity for a better life. All they had to do was ask. These were not always faith based and were offered by several different non-profits. They were able to do wonderful work. A local urbanest group had a discussion with one of the directors of the nonprofit who brought in two guys who were successful on getting their lives back on track. They both said that it came down to a choice. They chose to get help, go to rehab, stay clean, and invest in themselves instead of addictions. I think the book and the movie Pursuit of Happyness is a great reminder of that.

In the book Tin Man to Iron Man, the author Christ Swanson really goes into depth regarding this concept. He talks about an elderly man who is homeless who spends his day collecting soda cans all day. He never asks anyone for anything but is able to 'make it' on his own. But several people have offered help and it was pride that got in the way of this homeless guy having a stable life.
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I’ll just comment that the presence of organizations (including religious institutions) that offer “help” for the down and out is not a new thing. And yet, there continue to be people without a home, struggling with dependence, mental illness, etc. It is not as easy as just making a choice to get help or setting aside one's pride. If it were, this is an issue we as a society would have tackled a long time ago. It is an enormously complex issue and I don't think we fully understand all the forces (internal and external) that land people in such bad situations.
 
wahday said:
I’ll just comment that the presence of organizations (including religious institutions) that offer “help” for the down and out is not a new thing. And yet, there continue to be people without a home, struggling with dependence, mental illness, etc. It is not as easy as just making a choice to get help or setting aside one's pride. If it were, this is an issue we as a society would have tackled a long time ago. It is an enormously complex issue and I don't think we fully understand all the forces (internal and external) that land people in such bad situations.
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There have always been and always will be homeless people, people with mental issues, and people with substance abuse issues. I agree that we don't fully understand these issues. I know I don't and that is why I don't give them money, but I do give them directions to a shelter, soup kitchen, or similar place that can help them better than I can. At that point it is their choice. Some will not be able to overcome the demons within, others may decided that they can go a different direction. It's up to them.
 
Hmmm

Is there any doubt that Jeb Bush is a mouthpiece for corporate America after he said we need to "work longer hours"

Check out this study that shows less work translates into greater gains:
http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf

From the Economist and the above paper:
74gMLyS.png


At some point.....and we have been there for about 10 years in my opinion.....the American worker gets EXACTLY what they vote (or don't) for.
 
Trump and Bush are just two more examples of conservatives who tout the virtues of capitalism and how anyone can become rich and successful with perseverance.

Both men crow that they've hit home runs, but their daddies and granddaddies put them on third base and threw the ball far into left field for them.

Anyone can be rich, if they start out that way at birth.

Anyone can be considered successful, if filing for four bankruptcies and walking away from your responsibilities is consider acceptable business practices.

The rest of us just have to muck along because the rules are written by the Bushes, Trumps and Romneys of the world and the fat cats that put them there. We normal folks have to stand up to our obligations. And when it is time to pay the piper, we cannot simply walk away. We have to stand up and pay what is owed.

Plus, Trump is just a f***ing a-hole and should just shut the **** up.
 
Trump appears to be intentionally beginning his exit from the campaign now. The McCain flap provides him with the perfect means to do so without being labeled a "quitter". Not sure what his long game is with the whole Presidential campaign thing but rest assured he has one and it has something to do with making even more money and that it was never about running for any public office.

All I can say is what could he possibly do next to keep himself in the headlines...maybe show up to a campaign rally waving a confederate flag?

Those familiar with the literary works of Douglas Adams will appreciate the whole Zaphod Beeblebrox angle Trump poses.
 
michaelskis said:
Has anyone taken the time to read Trumps platform? I can't get past his stupid comments to bother.
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No, I can't stomach it nor that there are plenty that actually defend him. On the other hand, I don't understand the outrage by other republicans that didn't take any issue with the Swiftboat Veterans and their attacks against Kerry. So one veteran is okay to attack, but not another? Seems hypocritical for so many to be outraged now.
 
Habanero said:
No, I can't stomach it nor that there are plenty that actually defend him. On the other hand, I don't understand the outrage by other republicans that didn't take any issue with the Swiftboat Veterans and their attacks against Kerry. So one veteran is okay to attack, but not another? Seems hypocritical for so many to be outraged now.
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I think you need to be a hypocrite to be a politician in DC. Hypocrite 101 is before lunch but after "screw the public 201 during their freshman year.
 
Fleecing the Sheeple....

From Robert Reich......a graph showing the increase in corporate profits over the last several years.....yet no corresponding increase for labor......wake up sheeple!!

j5vOnnU.png
 
The One said:
From Robert Reich......a graph showing the increase in corporate profits over the last several years.....yet no corresponding increase for labor......wake up sheeple!!

j5vOnnU.png
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We'll all be automated out of jobs soon enough, with plenty of free time to sit around and fight with each other. In the USA, we'll be fine with all our guns though.
 
Habanero said:
No, I can't stomach it nor that there are plenty that actually defend him. On the other hand, I don't understand the outrage by other republicans that didn't take any issue with the Swiftboat Veterans and their attacks against Kerry. So one veteran is okay to attack, but not another? Seems hypocritical for so many to be outraged now.
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I'm not surprised about Trump's support from Republican rank-and-file on his anti-immigrant comments, but I'm really shocked at the number of conservatives in this area,none of whom are veterans, who continue to make excuses for his insult to McCain, veterans, and all military personnel, and equate his flippant, disrespectful jibe as somehow equivalent to Clinton and GWB avoiding the draft/service in Vietnam.
 
What!? The Pope doesn't have to follow the separation of church and state? And conservatives don't like him for advocating for the planet, and poor people?

“I don’t get economic policy from my bishops or my cardinal or my pope,” GOP presidential contender Jeb Bush told supporters at the time.
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And yet many do get their policy decisions from religion. Gay marriage? Ban it because it is against my religion. Abortion. Ban it because it is against my religion. Why not climate change? Because it doesn't fit into your little box? :r:


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/poll-pope-francis-popularity-us-120457.html?hp=l5_4
 
How dare the Pope care about people! Doesn't he know he's destroying the economy? :D

I heard yet another governor is in the race (Ohio I believe). Good luck distinguishing himself. I'm waiting for my gov to throw his hat in the ring. You know, asking campaign funds from the power company when they're under review for a rate hike isn't really that bad.
 
dvdneal said:
I heard yet another governor is in the race (Ohio I believe). Good luck distinguishing himself. I'm waiting for my gov to throw his hat in the ring. You know, asking campaign funds from the power company when they're under review for a rate hike isn't really that bad.
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I see it as more of a campaign for a high level cabinet position. ;) :D
 
mendelman said:
I see it as more of a campaign for a high level cabinet position. ;) :D
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Yep. I think he is a shoe in for Jeb to put him the cabinet. Let's just hope it isn't Education or Treasury. He was horrible in Ohio for local government funding and schools.
 
mendelman said:
I see it as more of a campaign for a high level cabinet position. ;) :D
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I forget that a lot of this is just positioning for VP or cabinet jobs and not just PR for a book deal or pundit job.

We should start calling this like a horse race. And they're off...It looks like a slow start for Jindal and the pack. Wait! Trump has made a racist comment and pulled ahead of the pack by a toupee length. Christie is off to a slow start. I know a lot of people bet on him, but you had to know he's had some pre race problems.
 
Hink said:
What!? The Pope doesn't have to follow the separation of church and state? And conservatives don't like him for advocating for the planet, and poor people?



And yet many do get their policy decisions from religion. Gay marriage? Ban it because it is against my religion. Abortion. Ban it because it is against my religion. Why not climate change? Because it doesn't fit into your little box? :r:


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/poll-pope-francis-popularity-us-120457.html?hp=l5_4
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No. The Pope does not need to follow it because he is not American and does not live in the United States. We don't expect Muslim leaders in the middle east to follow it, why would we require the Pope? After all, just look at all the things that are illegal under Sharia Law... including gay marriage.

Planit said:
Everyone has a right to be stupid. Politicians just abuse the privilege.
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This is so true.
 
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