NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

[michaelskis]

Tonight that police force has been overthrown. The governor had to step in and put the state highway patrol in place as the local municipal and county police force had lost its lagitimacy after the last 5 nights. When the world is watching, it became apparent that they had no lagitimacy. The BBC had extensive coverage of what was happening in Ferguson, MO. It is absolutly clear that they had lost their lagitimacy and that to stop a bloodbath from happening, the locally sanctioned gang had to be taken out of the mix. What should be legal when the cops loose their lagitimacy, are they then subject to stand your ground rules? Why not? They were definately doing their best to intimidate last several nights.

The City of St. Louis police cheif said he would not step in to help Ferguson or County law enforcement because of their overtly heavy handed tactics. He said hell no, there is so much wrong there I want no part of it.

Every person that was involved in policing last night needs to be fired.

I agree there are more good cops than bad cops. I ask then, why don't they stand up and say they can't do this crap when they know its wrong? Why can't those good cops stand up and not protect their fellow officer and instead arrest and turn that person out? Why do good cops have to have the eyes of the world on them to do the right thing? Police unions? Why not a call to banish them since they hide and defend bad cops? WAY WORSE than teachers unions as far as I can tell. I just ask, if there are so damn many good cops, why do they protect the bad ones and even worse decision making?

You should have been hearing what the Ferguson police cheif was saying today. Maedevil.

Didn't this program used to check spelling? How do you turn it on?

I think that the Governor stepping in and putting the Highway Patrol in place was a very smart move. In talking with a coworker about it this morning, the biggest change is that the Highway Patrol officers are showing up in regular uniforms, no riot gear, and people are taking selfies with them. It is a total 180 from the Ferguson Police department.

I just pray that the current peace continues until the investigation is complete. I think it is a good thing that they also released the name of the officer (Darren Wilson) who shot the 18 year old. My guess is he is in protective custody someplace.

 

[dw914er]

I think that the Governor stepping in and putting the Highway Patrol in place was a very smart move. In talking with a coworker about it this morning, the biggest change is that the Highway Patrol officers are showing up in regular uniforms, no riot gear, and people are taking selfies with them. It is a total 180 from the Ferguson Police department.

I just pray that the current peace continues until the investigation is complete. I think it is a good thing that they also released the name of the officer (Darren Wilson) who shot the 18 year old. My guess is he is in protective custody someplace.

There were photos of the Captain of the MSHP assigned to Ferguson walking with the protestors. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...atrol-captain-who-is-taking-over-in-ferguson/

The reality is that the escalation of force usually causes more trouble. Sometimes it is necessary, but most of the time, and especially in this case, it wasn't. I'm glad that things are easing up right now, but it will be a long battle with the Ferguson PD to build back any sort of trust and positive reputation with the community.

 

[Suburb Repairman]

I think the biggest tactical lesson-learned is the stark contrast between Ferguson's militarized, intimidating approach versus the state police's adapted version of community-based policing techniques. One approach exacerbated the problems, while the other has brought calm & conversation. The militaristic approach is bound to result in a "hammer looking for a nail" scenario.

My police department just transitioned to body worn cameras and has more diversity in its ranks than many larger departments. I'm very thankful for this.

I don't know how a department can ever really recover from the kind of trust issues Ferguson's has. The distrust there goes back way before this particular incident--it is just the incident that lit the fuse.

 

[michaelskis]

I think the biggest tactical lesson-learned is the stark contrast between Ferguson's militarized, intimidating approach versus the state police's adapted version of community-based policing techniques. One approach exacerbated the problems, while the other has brought calm & conversation. The militaristic approach is bound to result in a "hammer looking for a nail" scenario.

My police department just transitioned to body worn cameras and has more diversity in its ranks than many larger departments. I'm very thankful for this.

I don't know how a department can ever really recover from the kind of trust issues Ferguson's has. The distrust there goes back way before this particular incident--it is just the incident that lit the fuse.

The race component and diversity has been brought up several times now so I looked into it. It sounds like a bit of the frustration is that almost all of the police officers in this community are white, whereas the majority of the residents are not. More so, all but one member of City Council is white. Thus I will pose the following questions:

1. Would a black police officer do a better job in a mostly black community strictly because of the color of his skin?
2. Should a police force have the same (or close to the same) racial make up as the community, even if it means more qualified candidates are passed up because of the color of their skin?
3. Should a city council be required to have the same racial makeup as the community they represent even if a candidate gets more votes but is not able to take the position because of the color of their skin?

I have said it before and I am going to say it again. Any time that the color of ones skin plays a role in a decision, to me, that is a form of racism, and to be blunt, I wonder if there is racism going on in that police force by establishing favoritism towards white candidates. There very well could be.

 

[Whose Yur Planner]

The race component and diversity has been brought up several times now so I looked into it. It sounds like a bit of the frustration is that almost all of the police officers in this community are white, whereas the majority of the residents are not. More so, all but one member of City Council is white. Thus I will pose the following questions:

1. Would a black police officer do a better job in a mostly black community strictly because of the color of his skin?
2. Should a police force have the same (or close to the same) racial make up as the community, even if it means more qualified candidates are passed up because of the color of their skin?
3. Should a city council be required to have the same racial makeup as the community they represent even if a candidate gets more votes but is not able to take the position because of the color of their skin?

I have said it before and I am going to say it again. Any time that the color of ones skin plays a role in a decision, to me, that is a form of racism, and to be blunt, I wonder if there is racism going on in that police force by establishing favoritism towards white candidates. There very well could be.

The policing that is done, no. Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Martian, etc, it makes no difference is how the job is done. Where it makes a difference is how the community perceives it. If civilians feel more comfortable with a person who is like them, it helps and can ease tensions.. As for a city council, who sits on the Council is entirely up to the voters in the community. Unfortunately in America, we are still living with the mistakes and the horrible things that happened in the past.

 

[ColoGI]

I saw and read Rand Pauls article. It was inciteful and spot on. I don't really trust that he would stand behind his words in any way, but I agree with them.

.

It didn't incite me at all. But I wish more leaders would speak out like this.

The race component and diversity has been brought up several times now so I looked into it....I have said it before and I am going to say it again. Any time that the color of ones skin plays a role in a decision, to me, that is a form of racism, and to be blunt, I wonder if there is racism going on in that police force by establishing favoritism towards white candidates. There very well could be.

Oh, yes. I know lots of (mostly, now) retired cops. Before I moved from CA I spent most of my holidays and many weekends with these retired cops. And my previous career with several ex-cops.

 

[michaelskis]

I believe that early on the violence was incited by military style tactics, but the violence last night was nothing more than mob mentality.

 

[Linda_D]

The race component and diversity has been brought up several times now so I looked into it. It sounds like a bit of the frustration is that almost all of the police officers in this community are white, whereas the majority of the residents are not. More so, all but one member of City Council is white. Thus I will pose the following questions:

1. Would a black police officer do a better job in a mostly black community strictly because of the color of his skin?
2. Should a police force have the same (or close to the same) racial make up as the community, even if it means more qualified candidates are passed up because of the color of their skin?
3. Should a city council be required to have the same racial makeup as the community they represent even if a candidate gets more votes but is not able to take the position because of the color of their skin?

I have said it before and I am going to say it again. Any time that the color of ones skin plays a role in a decision, to me, that is a form of racism, and to be blunt, I wonder if there is racism going on in that police force by establishing favoritism towards white candidates. There very well could be.

#2: IMO, "more qualified candidate" is simply a code to excuse discrimination against people of color, women, and, in the case of police and paid professional fire departments, "outsiders" in general. In most local police and fire departments, having the right bloodlines and social contacts tends to count far more when it comes to "qualifications" than do scores on civil service exams, resumes, interviews, etc, which is why so many police and professional fire departments are filled with combinations of fathers/sons/brothers/cousins/pals of other police and fire department or influential municipal employees. It's not just hillbillies and rednecks who are "inbred".

#3: As for requiring a specific racial make up on a municipal council, that's clearly unconstitutional. However, there are lots of ways for racist politicians to insure their legislature stays "the right color". Drawing voting district boundaries (gerrymandering) or having all candidates run at-large can give a particular group (such as the whites in Ferguson) much more representation than would be expected given its percentage of the population. Limiting polling places or hours or holding elections on off-times (like holding village elections in May rather than in November) can suppress general voter turn-out, and sometimes can specifically limit minority groups' participation. Sometimes, there's outright voter intimidation aimed at specific groups, such as demanding that Spanish-speaking people from Puerto Rico "prove" their citizenship.

I think there not being even 1 person of color on the Ferguson city council when 2/3 of the population is black is very suspicious. My little burg, which is 85% white in a county that is about 97% white with a high percentage of individuals who can be best described as rednecks, has 2 blacks on our city council, 1 of whom is an at-large member I think. My guess is that while Ferguson's elite may pay lip service to 21st century sensibilities, they remain firmly entrenched in the 1950s.

 

[Linda_D]

Here's an article on race issues in and around Ferguson and other parts of St Louis County: Ferguson and Environs. It seems that the racial problems around St Louis aren't just in Ferguson.

 

[michaelskis]

Linda, there is discrimination alive and well. That is why I am a firm believer that race should never be part of a decision. But for it to work in one direction, it needs to apply in all directions. I don't think that minorities should be given priority because of the color of their skin. Instead people should be based on their qualifications.

 

[Suburb Repairman]

I don't think that minorities should be given priority because of the color of their skin. Instead people should be based on their qualifications.

That is how civil service exams are supposed to work... IN THEORY. In practice, they've inserted aspects into the exam that are not relevant or have unintended consequences. Why does veteran status suddenly make you more qualified to be a cop or firefighter? In some places, exam & selection processes are written intentionally to discriminate by tailoring the qualifications to maintain status quo or benefit relatives. That is reality.

Even well-intentioned cities are struggling to create exams that encourage diversity, but avoid perception that race is a deciding factor. It is not an easy thing to do. They need minority recruitment programs and need to start targeting kids in high school for careers in police/fire/EMS. Even then, it is difficult because many minorities grew up with negative relationships with authorities. A friend in college was pulled over three times in four years for "improper lane change" or a busted taillight that was used as a basis to search his vehicle--each time they found nothing. He is a big black dude and was a criminal justice major at the time. He views all cops with skepticism now and would probably never consider a law enforcement career as a result. A shame, because he would have been an excellent cop.

My BIL is a firefighter. When he took the exam, he remarked that the actual pool of people taking the exam was not very diverse. That isn't hiring practices or even the exam content--that is a recruitment issue.

Community-based policing will also eventually lead to more diversity in police departments. These videos you've been seeing of cops in uniform playing streetball with the neighborhood kids for a few minutes? Worth its weight in gold. Those positive interactions will lead those kids to considering law enforcement careers and becoming part of a solution.

 

[Linda_D]

Linda, there is discrimination alive and well. That is why I am a firm believer that race should never be part of a decision. But for it to work in one direction, it needs to apply in all directions. I don't think that minorities should be given priority because of the color of their skin. Instead people should be based on their qualifications.

The problem is that some employers have "special qualifications", ie, nepotism and political considerations, which trump all other "qualifications", and local police and paid professional fire departments are notorious for this. It's much less of a problem on state police forces except sometimes in promotions because the selection process is so far removed from the local jurisdictions, and it's NOT simply about race, either. In some municipalities, it's infinitely harder for any "outsider", ie someone who doesn't already have a relative or pal on the police force, to get an appointment.

 

[The One]

Hmmmm

The problem is that some employers have "special qualifications", ie, nepotism and political considerations, which trump all other "qualifications", and local police and paid professional fire departments are notorious for this. It's much less of a problem on state police forces except sometimes in promotions because the selection process is so far removed from the local jurisdictions, and it's NOT simply about race, either. In some municipalities, it's infinitely harder for any "outsider", ie someone who doesn't already have a relative or pal on the police force, to get an appointment.

Just a note about state police......they promote the officers that are screw ups in the field and that have the highest potential for liability and/or could embarrass the department the most.

 

[ColoGI]

Just a note about state police......they promote the officers that are screw ups in the field and that have the highest potential for liability and/or could embarrass the department the most.

Very common in many professions. ;o)

 

[michaelskis]

That is how civil service exams are supposed to work... IN THEORY. In practice, they've inserted aspects into the exam that are not relevant or have unintended consequences. Why does veteran status suddenly make you more qualified to be a cop or firefighter? In some places, exam & selection processes are written intentionally to discriminate by tailoring the qualifications to maintain status quo or benefit relatives. That is reality.

Even well-intentioned cities are struggling to create exams that encourage diversity, but avoid perception that race is a deciding factor. It is not an easy thing to do. They need minority recruitment programs and need to start targeting kids in high school for careers in police/fire/EMS. Even then, it is difficult because many minorities grew up with negative relationships with authorities. A friend in college was pulled over three times in four years for "improper lane change" or a busted taillight that was used as a basis to search his vehicle--each time they found nothing. He is a big black dude and was a criminal justice major at the time. He views all cops with skepticism now and would probably never consider a law enforcement career as a result. A shame, because he would have been an excellent cop.

My BIL is a firefighter. When he took the exam, he remarked that the actual pool of people taking the exam was not very diverse. That isn't hiring practices or even the exam content--that is a recruitment issue.

Community-based policing will also eventually lead to more diversity in police departments. These videos you've been seeing of cops in uniform playing streetball with the neighborhood kids for a few minutes? Worth its weight in gold. Those positive interactions will lead those kids to considering law enforcement careers and becoming part of a solution.

I think that you hit the nail right on the head, and it is not just with police/fire/ems, but with many different career opportunities. Someplace we had a discussion of the 'lack of diversity' at Google. But when almost all of the applicants are white male geeks (geek is not intended as a derogatory term in this context and I wish I understood IT stuff a fraction as much as they do), then of course there is going to be a lack of diversity. I remember in the 80's there was a public campaign to encourage women to go into math and sciences.

I also think that your point about police officers being active participants in the communities that they patrol is important. I admit that I do know a few cops that refuse to engage the public.


On related note, the autopsy was not all that helpful. It shows either a person with his hands up turned at an angle, or a person with his hand up and out charging the police officer. One thing that is for sure, he was not shot in the back.

Finally, what is going on with these riots. From what I hear and read, most of the issue is being caused by outside people coming into Ferguson to cause problems. During the day, protests are peaceful, but when night hits, it is a different situation. Do you think this is a cultural issue, or just some people out to cause problems?

 

[michaelskis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKkbieKkliI

Some thoughts about this video. I think that Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are race-mongers at best and I think that they are just causing more problems. I applaud this pastor's efforts to keep the peace and are noting that outside people are coming in and making things worse, but I think to flip-flop like that is foolish. I don't think that Al Sharpton or this pastor know 100% of what happened.

I applaud Kelly's willingness to call the pastor out on his flip flop, but I think that she is also being an instigator in the way that she approaches it.

 

[Dan]

The race component and diversity has been brought up several times now so I looked into it. It sounds like a bit of the frustration is that almost all of the police officers in this community are white, whereas the majority of the residents are not. More so, all but one member of City Council is white.

Consider that Ferguson is among many northern suburbs of St. Louis that have experienced racial transition/succession over the past two decades. Ferguson's racial demographics:

1990 Census: 73.8% white, 25.1% black
2000 Census: 44.8% white, 52.4% black
2010 Census: 29.3% white, 67.4% black

While the change in the makeup of the city's residents is fast, change in the community's institutions lags behind. It's the same of any community that is experiencing racial transition. Should long-tenured government employees, including police officers, be dismissed because they're white? What can a government do to ensure their workforce has the same racial balance as the community they serve, while complying with anti-discrimination laws? Should prospective policemen, firemen, and other public service workers be turned away or discouraged because of their race?

Ferguson's city council may be predominantly white, but they might be long-standing incumbents. Why aren't black residents voting for black candidates? How is the voting turnout for black residents, compared to the remaining white residents? Whether the City Council is ward-based, at large, or a combination of both, one would expect a more diverse legislative body -- provided there are viable black candidates running office, black residents turn out to vote, and voting is along racial lines.

FWIW, the suburb of Cleveland where I lived is 54.1% white, 40.7% black, 2% Asian (2010 Census). It's one of the progressive eastern suburbs that promotes the fact it's integrated. The mayor is white. There are seven city council members. Among the three at-large members, two are white, and one is black. Among the four ward-based members, three are white, and one is black.

 

[michaelskis]

Consider that Ferguson is among many northern suburbs of St. Louis that have experienced racial transition/succession over the past two decades. Ferguson's racial demographics:

1990 Census: 73.8% white, 25.1% black
2000 Census: 44.8% white, 52.4% black
2010 Census: 29.3% white, 67.4% black

While the change in the makeup of the city's residents is fast, change in the community's institutions lags behind. It's the same of any community that is experiencing racial transition. Should long-tenured government employees, including police officers, be dismissed because they're white? What can a government do to ensure their workforce has the same racial balance as the community they serve, while complying with anti-discrimination laws? Should prospective policemen, firemen, and other public service workers be turned away or discouraged because of their race?

Ferguson's city council may be predominantly white, but they might be long-standing incumbents. Why aren't black residents voting for black candidates? How is the voting turnout for black residents, compared to the remaining white residents? Whether the City Council is ward-based, at large, or a combination of both, one would expect a more diverse legislative body -- provided there are viable black candidates running office, black residents turn out to vote, and voting is along racial lines.

FWIW, the suburb of Cleveland where I lived is 54.1% white, 40.7% black, 2% Asian (2010 Census). It's one of the progressive eastern suburbs that promotes the fact it's integrated. The mayor is white. There are seven city council members. Among the three at-large members, two are white, and one is black. Among the four ward-based members, three are white, and one is black.

That is a heck of a shift in 20 years. Sounds a bit like Detroit. I think that come the next few elections, there will be a major shift in office. But as I have expressed before, to render a decision based on the color of one's skin is wrong.



To shift gears, I am not sure what to think about the ISIS beheading. I will not watch the video because I don't want to encourage these monsters to do this again. Politically, I don't know quite what to think about this. On one hand, I don't think that we should get involved, but on the other hand, they beheaded an innocent American journalist and I think that those responsible should have their entire existence eliminated, but anyone who assists them should pay the same price.

What are your thoughts on this? What do you think that the US should do?

 

[otterpop]

I bet that trend of whites fleeing Ferguson will now accelerate. Were I a white business owner in Ferguson, I would be tempted to board up my business and look for a better community to relocate. Of course most of them are probably stuck. No place else to go and too much of their capital and lives wrapped up in Ferguson.

Robbing, looting, vandalism, tossing piss and Moltov cocktails at police - these do not make good neighbors. These individuals make up a small percentage of the protestors but they are the most visible and dangerous ones.

Rarely do i side with the police. But in this case I think they are showing restraint and good judgement. A tragedy happened. But what has happened since is reprehensible.

 

[Linda_D]

Consider that Ferguson is among many northern suburbs of St. Louis that have experienced racial transition/succession over the past two decades. Ferguson's racial demographics:

1990 Census: 73.8% white, 25.1% black
2000 Census: 44.8% white, 52.4% black
2010 Census: 29.3% white, 67.4% black

While the change in the makeup of the city's residents is fast, change in the community's institutions lags behind. It's the same of any community that is experiencing racial transition. Should long-tenured government employees, including police officers, be dismissed because they're white? What can a government do to ensure their workforce has the same racial balance as the community they serve, while complying with anti-discrimination laws? Should prospective policemen, firemen, and other public service workers be turned away or discouraged because of their race?

Ferguson's city council may be predominantly white, but they might be long-standing incumbents. Why aren't black residents voting for black candidates? How is the voting turnout for black residents, compared to the remaining white residents? Whether the City Council is ward-based, at large, or a combination of both, one would expect a more diverse legislative body -- provided there are viable black candidates running office, black residents turn out to vote, and voting is along racial lines.

FWIW, the suburb of Cleveland where I lived is 54.1% white, 40.7% black, 2% Asian (2010 Census). It's one of the progressive eastern suburbs that promotes the fact it's integrated. The mayor is white. There are seven city council members. Among the three at-large members, two are white, and one is black. Among the four ward-based members, three are white, and one is black.

Feguson has intentially suppressed voter turnout in municipal elections for decades by not only holding elections on off-years (no national/state-wide elections) but also by holding the elections in the spring (April I think). This isn't necessarily aimed at blacks but pretty much at all the supposedly "unsavory"/"undeserving"/"uneducated" groups that might be expected to come out in larger numbers for state-wide or national elections. It has long been a favorite ploy of "good government" reformers who want to take politics out of politics and replace them with rule by an oligarchy of the well educated, well heeled, and well bred like themselves who know what's "best" for the ignorant masses.

This kind of anti-politics view began during the Progressive Era (1890-1920) and coincides with the rise of populism, massive immigration from southern and eastern Europe, rapid industriallzation,and the growth of cities because of industrialization. It was a vestige of the attempts by the WASP elite to maintain their control of their localities even if poor farmers, immigrants and other uncouth undesirables started to influence national and big city politics, and it probably contributed to the problems in Ferguson.

PS: I personally don't believe that there are that many "outside agitators" in Ferguson. That old line has been used since at least the 1960s whenever blacks or Latinos or whomever get po'd at the power structure and blindly strike out.

 

[Dan]

I bet that trend of whites fleeing Ferguson will now accelerate. Were I a white business owner in Ferguson, I would be tempted to board up my business and look for a better community to relocate. Of course most of them are probably stuck. No place else to go and too much of their capital and lives wrapped up in Ferguson..

For the remaining white residents of Ferguson, it might be tough at this point to flee. The city now has a tainted reputation, and property values will probably plunge. There would be accelerated flight of remaining white residents in North County, including Hazelwood and Florissant, where whites still form a small majority. I suspect chain and franchised businesses are more likely to stay put than independent businesses; they'll follow their clients out to St. Charles County.

In the 20 year period when my childhood neighborhood transitioned from predominantly white to predominantly black, most independent retailers, restaurants, bars, and service-oriented businesses moved, with retail space reoccupied by bodegas, urban clothing stores, pager and cell phone stores, and tax preparation offices. Catholic and mainline Protestant churches gradually closed, while black congregations took their place. There's still a few "white" churches and service-oriented businesses that are holdouts. Most of the last remaining white residents -- about 10% of the population -- are too old to move, and/or have a limited income with very little or no equity. If you're a lower middle class household that is retired or close to retirement, and your house is worth only $30K, you're not going anywhere. There's a few conscientious holdouts; those that have the means to move, but stay put.

 

[michaelskis]

Feguson has intentially suppressed voter turnout in municipal elections for decades by not only holding elections on off-years (no national/state-wide elections) but also by holding the elections in the spring (April I think). This isn't necessarily aimed at blacks but pretty much at all the supposedly "unsavory"/"undeserving"/"uneducated" groups that might be expected to come out in larger numbers for state-wide or national elections. It has long been a favorite ploy of "good government" reformers who want to take politics out of politics and replace them with rule by an oligarchy of the well educated, well heeled, and well bred like themselves who know what's "best" for the ignorant masses.

This kind of anti-politics view began during the Progressive Era (1890-1920) and coincides with the rise of populism, massive immigration from southern and eastern Europe, rapid industriallzation,and the growth of cities because of industrialization. It was a vestige of the attempts by the WASP elite to maintain their control of their localities even if poor farmers, immigrants and other uncouth undesirables started to influence national and big city politics, and it probably contributed to the problems in Ferguson.

PS: I personally don't believe that there are that many "outside agitators" in Ferguson. That old line has been used since at least the 1960s whenever blacks or Latinos or whomever get po'd at the power structure and blindly strike out.

I don't doubt your observations, but I don't understand how that benefits white voters over black voters if they still have the same opportunities to vote. Can you go into more detail about that?

Personally, I think it is financially wasteful not to take advantage of state and national elections as the time for local elections. Less elections results in less tax dollars being spent.

For the remaining white residents of Ferguson, it might be tough at this point to flee. The city now has a tainted reputation, and property values will probably plunge. There would be accelerated flight of remaining white residents in North County, including Hazelwood and Florissant, where whites still form a small majority. I suspect chain and franchised businesses are more likely to stay put than independent businesses; they'll follow their clients out to St. Charles County.

In the 20 year period when my childhood neighborhood transitioned from predominantly white to predominantly black, most independent retailers, restaurants, bars, and service-oriented businesses moved, with retail space reoccupied by bodegas, urban clothing stores, pager and cell phone stores, and tax preparation offices. Catholic and mainline Protestant churches gradually closed, while black congregations took their place. There's still a few "white" churches and service-oriented businesses that are holdouts. Most of the last remaining white residents -- about 10% of the population -- are too old to move, and/or have a limited income with very little or no equity. If you're a lower middle class household that is retired or close to retirement, and your house is worth only $30K, you're not going anywhere. There's a few conscientious holdouts; those that have the means to move, but stay put.

My neighborhood is being gentrified. In 2000 it was only 50% white whereas in 2010 it was in the upper 70%. It also votes towards the liberal side of the ballot too.

 

[ColoGI]

I bet that trend of whites fleeing Ferguson will now accelerate. Were I a white business owner in Ferguson, I would be tempted to board up my business and look for a better community to relocate. Of course most of them are probably stuck. No place else to go and too much of their capital and lives wrapped up in Ferguson.

Robbing, looting, vandalism, tossing piss and Moltov cocktails at police - these do not make good neighbors. These individuals make up a small percentage of the protestors but they are the most visible and dangerous ones.

Rarely do i side with the police. But in this case I think they are showing restraint and good judgement. A tragedy happened. But what has happened since is reprehensible.

Aside from these po-po having a very poor record of service and a much better record of lying:

93 Percent of Protesters Arrested Monday Night Aren't From Ferguson​

Feguson has intentially suppressed voter turnout in municipal elections for decades by not only holding elections on off-years (no national/state-wide elections) but also by holding the elections in the spring (April I think). This isn't necessarily aimed at blacks but pretty much at all the supposedly "unsavory"/"undeserving"/"uneducated" groups that might be expected to come out in larger numbers for state-wide or national elections. It has long been a favorite ploy of "good government" reformers who want to take politics out of politics and replace them with rule by an oligarchy of the well educated, well heeled, and well bred like themselves who know what's "best" for the ignorant masses.

This kind of anti-politics view began during the Progressive Era (1890-1920) and coincides with the rise of populism, massive immigration from southern and eastern Europe, rapid industriallzation,and the growth of cities because of industrialization. It was a vestige of the attempts by the WASP elite to maintain their control of their localities even if poor farmers, immigrants and other uncouth undesirables started to influence national and big city politics, and it probably contributed to the problems in Ferguson.

PS: I personally don't believe that there are that many "outside agitators" in Ferguson. That old line has been used since at least the 1960s whenever blacks or Latinos or whomever get po'd at the power structure and blindly strike out.

We as a nation discriminate against the poor by suppressing their vote overall. Why do we vote on a work day?

 

[michaelskis]

We as a nation discriminate against the poor by suppressing their vote overall. Why do we vote on a work day?

Oh, and we have to actually go some place to vote too. That means people need to spend money to drive a car, take a bus, buy a bike, or have shoes too. Not to mention all of the polling locations inside of churches. HOW DARE THEY.

 

[Doohickie]

In the 20 year period when my childhood neighborhood transitioned from predominantly white to predominantly black,

What neighborhood did you grow up in, Dan?

 

[Linda_D]

I don't doubt your observations, but I don't understand how that benefits white voters over black voters if they still have the same opportunities to vote. Can you go into more detail about that?.

It doesn't favor white over black necessarily. It favors the local political elite who want to keep control of the municipality over casual voters who vote for a candidate because of issues or party or just because they know him/her because there's a lot less interest in off-year, and especially non-November, elections. The date of the election and polling hours barely get a mention in local news media, and virtually no info is published about the candidates. There's rarely a "get out the vote" campaign for these types of elections, all of which favor entrenched interests.

Addition:

Quote from the Washington Post linked in Dan's Plannersphere thread on Ferguson:

This problem of asymmetric representation can be fixed, but it will require mobilization around a specific reform agenda. As explored in an earlier post, this asymmetry in political power can be explained in part by low African American turnout associated with low-profile April elections in odd-numbered years.
...
Recent research by political scientists has shown that small but well-organized interest groups, such as unionized teachers and municipal workers, benefit handsomely from low-turnout off-cycle elections. Historically, off-cycle elections have been a favored strategy of established ethnic groups in American cities who wished to keep immigrants and minorities out of power. In North St. Louis County, the most organized groups are white homeowners who have been in the same neighborhood since the 1970s, along with police officers and municipal employees who benefit from the status quo, and they have been able to dominate local elections.

 

[michaelskis]

It doesn't favor white over black necessarily. It favors the local political elite who want to keep control of the municipality over casual voters who vote for a candidate because of issues or party or just because they know him/her because there's a lot less interest in off-year, and especially non-November, elections. The date of the election and polling hours barely get a mention in local news media, and virtually no info is published about the candidates. There's rarely a "get out the vote" campaign for these types of elections, all of which favor entrenched interests.

Addition:

Quote from the Washington Post linked in Dan's Plannersphere thread on Ferguson:

I completely agree that it happens and that this is the end result, but I just don't understand why people don't vote whenever there is an election. I wonder if it is a cultural issue or the realization that people don't care unless they have something to complain about.

As I stated before, I think that elections should happen twice a year, every two years. Once in April for the primary, then again in November. That would save the tax payers the most money and it would result in the highest turnouts.

 

[Suburb Repairman]

As I stated before, I think that elections should happen twice a year, every two years. Once in April for the primary, then again in November. That would save the tax payers the most money and it would result in the highest turnouts.

While I'm supportive of November elections, they aren't exactly a panacea. My city switched to November elections from May. There was only a small uptick in participation. What we found was a new issue: ballot fatigue. Municipal elections appear last on the ballot and we noticed a significant number of folks voted in Fed/State but didn't cast votes for local. It also gets a bit complicated because city elections in Texas are by definition non-partisan. Having them on the same ballot as partisan elections has muddied the waters a bit. Overall, I would still say the move to November has been beneficial socially/culturally, and has also created the added bonus of some savings on the cost to administer elections through the consolidation.

 

[Dan]

What neighborhood did you grow up in, Dan?

Kensington, on the East Side of Buffalo.

 

[Maister]

Kensington, on the East Side of Buffalo.

By any chance was that neighborhood ever populated by Poles? Not a lot of mature trees in the curb lawn

https://www.google.com/maps/place/B...2!3m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171

 

[Doohickie]

I grew up less than 10 minutes from there, near U-Crest Firehall.

 

[michaelskis]

People are starting to frustrate the crap out of me thinking they know exactly what happened in the Ferguson shooting. From everything I read, there are tons of unanswered questions.

 

[The One]

Well......

People are starting to frustrate the crap out of me thinking they know exactly what happened in the Ferguson shooting. From everything I read, there are tons of unanswered questions.

None of that matters. You don't pump half a dozen bullets into an unarmed teen (of any color) with a kill shot to the head at the end. PERIOD Not a hard concept to grasp.

 

[giff57]

None of that matters. You don't pump half a dozen bullets into an unarmed teen (of any color) with a kill shot to the head at the end. PERIOD Not a hard concept to grasp.

You do if the teen is much bigger than you and attacking, and none of us know whether this was the case or if the guy's buddy's story was. There is evidence that supports both theories, so the opinion of anyone who did not witness the incident is pure speculation.

 

[The One]

Nope

You do if the teen is much bigger than you and attacking, and none of us know whether this was the case or if the guy's buddy's story was. There is evidence that supports both theories, so the opinion of anyone who did not witness the incident is pure speculation.

No you don't. If the officer didn't think he could handle the kid on his own, he should have called for back up and waited. I wonder if this officer had a taser on his person at the time....GEE WIZ.....you would think any member of the media (pretending to be a journalist) might want to ask that question.....

 

[giff57]

No you don't. If the officer didn't think he could handle the kid on his own, he should have called for back up and waited. I wonder if this officer had a taser on his person at the time....GEE WIZ.....you would think any member of the media (pretending to be a journalist) might want to ask that question.....

My point is that you do not know this things either, yet you pass judgement. Do you know for a fact that back up was not requested, do you know if he had a TASER,. I am not going either way on this BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW and you don't either. I think people forget that cops are human, and mistakes are made. Sure I know that things being thrown around here happen all too often, but we do not know for certain what happened here. How about we get all of the facts before we hang this guy!

 

[wahday]

I think one thing that is important to realize is that the shooting of Michael Brown did not come out of the blue. Regardless of what we learn about how this particular incident transpired, the issue that is motivating protesters and activists goes well beyond this specific case. It has become emblematic of relations between officers and the African-American community in Ferguson and I think many of the particulars of Michael Brown’s death (including that his body lay uncovered in the middle of the street for a full 4 hours!) resonate deeply with long-held concerns. More than anything, I hope that this mess results in substantial, systemic change that will improve relations and cooperation between the authorities and communities (and not just in Ferguson but throughout the nation).

My own fair city has been under the national magnifying glass for a spate of officer shootings and abuse. The Department of Justice review recently completed was not positive and people are upset and want change. Growing up in Philadelphia in the 70s and 80s I can assure you racism on the police force and ensuing abuses of power are a very real part of our national fabric. I am not saying all forces or all officers are complicit, but simply that it is not a new or outrageous claim.

 

[michaelskis]

None of that matters. You don't pump half a dozen bullets into an unarmed teen (of any color) with a kill shot to the head at the end. PERIOD Not a hard concept to grasp.

IF... The teen is much larger than you, already caused trama to your dominate shooting eye, and is charging you, then you do your best to stop him. That much weight moving with momentum will require a head shot to stop. The entire thing likely took 10 or less seconds. Most gun battles are over in under 5 seconds, so he might not have had time to call for backup.

That is the theory that the cop is putting out and IF he is telling the truth, then yes, that was the appropriate action.

On the other hand, he might have been shoved, and the cop overreacted and murdered the kid. The point is we don't know for sure what happened yet.




But neither you nor I know for sure what happened. So to demand anything more than an investigation is just fueling an unnecessary fire.



The cops showing up on full riot gear just made a bad situation 1000 times worse.

 

[Linda_D]

I think one thing that is important to realize is that the shooting of Michael Brown did not come out of the blue. Regardless of what we learn about how this particular incident transpired, the issue that is motivating protesters and activists goes well beyond this specific case. It has become emblematic of relations between officers and the African-American community in Ferguson and I think many of the particulars of Michael Brown’s death (including that his body lay uncovered in the middle of the street for a full 4 hours!) resonate deeply with long-held concerns. More than anything, I hope that this mess results in substantial, systemic change that will improve relations and cooperation between the authorities and communities (and not just in Ferguson but throughout the nation).

My own fair city has been under the national magnifying glass for a spate of officer shootings and abuse. The Department of Justice review recently completed was not positive and people are upset and want change. Growing up in Philadelphia in the 70s and 80s I can assure you racism on the police force and ensuing abuses of power are a very real part of our national fabric. I am not saying all forces or all officers are complicit, but simply that it is not a new or outrageous claim.

Exactly right, Wahday. If this was an isolated incident, it would not have erupted into the violence that it did even if the PD was almost entirely white and the city about 2/3 black. This incident was simply the culmination of years of bad behavior on the part of the Ferguson PD towards blacks, and it was the spark that ignited long pent-up anger about how the police behaved in general.

 

[michaelskis]

Exactly right, Wahday. If this was an isolated incident, it would not have erupted into the violence that it did even if the PD was almost entirely white and the city about 2/3 black. This incident was simply the culmination of years of bad behavior on the part of the Ferguson PD towards blacks, and it was the spark that ignited long pent-up anger about how the police behaved in general.

I agree 100% with what you said.

Even if the cop did kill Mr. Brown in self defense, the actions by the police made things worse. However, I am not saying that rioting and looting were justifiable, but the police took it from a tragic situation to a horrible situation.

 

[michaelskis]

People only try to cover things up after they messed up and got caught.

Senior IRS official: Lois Lerner's Blackberry was intentionally destroyed (LINK)

Lois Lerner's Blackberry, which may have contained evidence regarding the IRS's targeting of conservative groups, was purposefully destroyed. That's the charge that Thomas Kane, the deputy chief counsel to the IRS, made recently in a sworn declaration.

So it makes me wonder, did this knowledge stop with her, or did it go all the way up to the President?

And to think, Richard Nixion had to resign because he knew of people bugging a campaign office.



I just learned of the situation where a 9 year old girl accidentally shot and killed her gun instructor with an automatic weapon (Uzi). (LINK TO STORY)

This is the kind of stuff that give responsible gun owners a very bad name. Who in their right mind would let a 9 year old girl shoot an Uzi on fill automatic. There are so many things in this video that scream danger, that that it should never have occurred. She does not have the arm strength to control the repeated recoil of an automatic weapon like that. Second, this position, leaning up and over the top of the gun, is a horrible place to be. I could keep going on, but I don't need to.

I feel horrible for this little girl.

 

[Suburb Repairman]

People only try to cover things up after they messed up and got caught.

Senior IRS official: Lois Lerner’s Blackberry was intentionally destroyed (LINK)


So it makes me wonder, did this knowledge stop with her, or did it go all the way up to the President?

And to think, Richard Nixion had to resign because he knew of people bugging a campaign office.

I doubt it goes that high. I expect Presidents to have a close tab on nefarious campaign actions. Obama has never demonstrated a level of micromanagement that would lead me to believe that he was able to bypass the IRS Commissioner. I think the Inspector General would have called out Shulman if he knew, but he was largely unscathed except for not knowing about how deep the problem was.

It is less likely Obama was involved and probably more likely that it was an overzealous staff acting independently or special interest operatives from outside of Obama's circle. Establishment Republicans actually had more self interest in suppressing these organizations than Obama or the Democrats.

 

[WSU MUP Student]

People only try to cover things up after they messed up and got caught.

Senior IRS official: Lois Lerner’s Blackberry was intentionally destroyed (LINK)

Without knowing the particulars of the case (I have not been interested nor following this one at all), destroying or wiping a cell phone, computer, or tablet after a relatively short period of time is SOP among many of the agencies within the DoD, State Department, Treasury, Justice, etc... It's generally the only way to ensure that sensitive and classified materials do not get inadvertently disseminated.

 

[michaelskis]

Without knowing the particulars of the case (I have not been interested nor following this one at all), destroying or wiping a cell phone, computer, or tablet after a relatively short period of time is SOP among many of the agencies within the DoD, State Department, Treasury, Justice, etc... It's generally the only way to ensure that sensitive and classified materials do not get inadvertently disseminated.

You are completely correct, but while that person is still in that position? Something seems off to me. Personally, I don't think that the President knew about it, but I do think that she directed it.

 

[WSU MUP Student]

You are completely correct, but while that person is still in that position? Something seems off to me. Personally, I don't think that the President knew about it, but I do think that she directed it.

Yes, it happens while the person is still in the position. In fact, it often happens without warning. The IG (or somebody in a similar position) would issue an order and all controlled devices from Agency X or Staff Y would need to be turned in or destroyed (or however that particular order is written) within Z hours. It would also happen frequently when a senior official retires, steps down, transfers, is let go, etc. (and not just the devices of that official, but the devices of all those that they worked with). Operational security is a real concern.

 

[Linda_D]

I just learned of the situation where a 9 year old girl accidentally shot and killed her gun instructor with an automatic weapon (Uzi). (LINK TO STORY)

This is the kind of stuff that give responsible gun owners a very bad name. Who in their right mind would let a 9 year old girl shoot an Uzi on fill automatic. There are so many things in this video that scream danger, that that it should never have occurred. She does not have the arm strength to control the repeated recoil of an automatic weapon like that. Second, this position, leaning up and over the top of the gun, is a horrible place to be. I could keep going on, but I don't need to.

I feel horrible for this little girl.

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll see more of this as politicians kiss the butts of the gun nuts and gun lobby and write laws that expand the ability of idiots who shouldn't have guns or children to "exercise their Second Amendment rights". I have little doubt that we will be inundated with diatribes denying the reality that an automatic weapon in the hands of any 9-year-old is a disaster that just hasn't happened yet.

 

[michaelskis]

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll see more of this as politicians kiss the butts of the gun nuts and gun lobby and write laws that expand the ability of idiots who shouldn't have guns or children to "exercise their Second Amendment rights". I have little doubt that we will be inundated with diatribes denying the reality that an automatic weapon in the hands of any 9-year-old is a disaster that just hasn't happened yet.

Several pro-gun sites that I frequent have commented that this should not have happened and that it was the fault of the instructor for being careless and unsafe. One site pointed out that these types of things happen more often than people realize, but it is rare that it is a little girl pulling the trigger. The SW .500 Magnum for example is a gun that should not be handled by people who have a small build. Even though it have ports on the top of the barrel to help push it back down, the recoil is such that it will snap up causing injury or death to the shooter.

As for full automatic, the rules about them here in MI are very complicated. It all depends on when the weapon was built (pre or post 1986), and the type of licence that you have. They are not prohibited completely, but it is difficult to buy and own one. Personally, I like the semiautomatics better. (More control for shot placement)

 

[Veloise]

LWB

"Driving While Black" (DWB) is a fairly well-known issue. Ferguson has uncovered quite a few examples of "Living While Black."


police tase & arrest a black man picking his kids up from pre-school

"When you fit the description"

Beverly Hills Police Regret Arresting A Well-Connected Black Man With Good Social Media Skills

 

[Jazzman]

"Driving While Black" (DWB) is a fairly well-known issue. Ferguson has uncovered quite a few examples of "Living While Black."


police tase & arrest a black man picking his kids up from pre-school

"When you fit the description"

Beverly Hills Police Regret Arresting A Well-Connected Black Man With Good Social Media Skills

I don't want to condone the destruction of property, violence, etc., but if it weren't for the unrest in Ferguson, and if it didn't last as long as it did, would anyone have bothered to dig up stories like this? That's why when studying riots (Ferguson, L.A. in 1965 and 1992, Newark, Detroit, etc) I don't think it's as easy as black and white. I don't think it's easy to simply say that you're wrong if you rioted, period - because the broader society doesn't seem to care until things get that ugly. Am I wrong?

 

[michaelskis]

I don't want to condone the destruction of property, violence, etc., but if it weren't for the unrest in Ferguson, and if it didn't last as long as it did, would anyone have bothered to dig up stories like this? That's why when studying riots (Ferguson, L.A. in 1965 and 1992, Newark, Detroit, etc) I don't think it's as easy as black and white. I don't think it's easy to simply say that you're wrong if you rioted, period - because the broader society doesn't seem to care until things get that ugly. Am I wrong?

No, you are not wrong. But there is still the question of the police showing up in full riot gear and military style gear caused the problem to be worse.