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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

SO let's get this straight.

Boehner wants to sue President Obama. Palin wants to impeach President Obama (& she holds what office right now?). Boehner says no that's not a good idea and I am first in line. :r: What a clusterf*$k. Can we please get back to some slight form of governing :not:
 
Moderator note:

C'mon, seriously?:r:

Given the nature of the subject at hand, it would be helpful for me to hear the other persons point of view. I have made no secret that I believe that life begins at conception, and thus abortive contraception, which is not going to be covered by Hobby Lobby is wrong. Linda disagrees with me, and I think that it is a pertinent question as I seek to understand her threshold of belief regarding when life begins. I am sure that she would opposed to abortive measures after that point in time... but we don't know what point in time that is for her.

SO let's get this straight.

Boehner wants to sue President Obama. Palin wants to impeach President Obama (& she holds what office right now?). Boehner says no that's not a good idea and I am first in line. :r: What a clusterf*$k. Can we please get back to some slight form of governing :not:

I don't trust Boehner or Palin at this point. First of all, his 'lawsuit' idea seems more like the punch line to a joke. If congress isn't going to take constitutional action, then he shouldn't get involved. Palin is a whole other mess and has become more of a political commentator/ talking head than anything else.
 
SO let's get this straight.

Boehner wants to sue President Obama. Palin wants to impeach President Obama (& she holds what office right now?). Boehner says no that's not a good idea and I am first in line. :r: What a clusterf*$k. Can we please get back to some slight form of governing :not:

The election doesn't go your way, why not just impeach the guy?

As for going back to some form of governing. there are two times we have to worry about Congress: 1) when Congress does nothing; and 2) when Congress does something.


Sarah Palin certainly has the same rights to free speech as everyone else in the USA. That doesn't mean the media has to report on her addle-brained ramblings. I say, when she opens her yap, everyone should just turn off the cameras and microphones and just walk away.

Filming a horrific car accident or letting Sarah Palin spout her nonsense is pretty close to the same thing. No one really needs to see it and it serves nothing but morbid curiosity.
 
Yeah, I've seen all of the screed about the Dictionary Act. And that was intended for matters of civil litigation, not for the application of individual rights. SCOTUS is severely warping the intent of the Dictionary Act. By your argument and apparently that of SCOTUS, two corporations would be allowed to get married, adopt children or run for office. Vote for Walmart!

Actually, corporations have voting rights, don't they? ;)

Or so it seems. :-{
 
And the hand of god might come down as well... :r:

From the passage Hink quoted, the description sounds like forcing the woman to drink pennyroyal tea to make sure that if she was pregnant, she'd lose the baby. You can call it whatever euphemism you want to, but inducing a miscarriage = abortion in my book.

But back to my original question. Do you think that murder is acceptable?

Furthermore, at what point is a fetus "life"?

I will repeat my stance once again: what I believe is irrelevant because not everybody shares my beliefs. Freedom of conscience applies to everybody, NOT just those with whom we agree or those who believe the way the majority believes.

Since you want to press absolutes, why do you keep a gun for protection? Doesn't the Bible say "thou shall not kill"? It doesn't say "thou shall not murder" or "thou can kill in self defense". In fact, Jesus said to turn the other cheek, but, by being ready to use your gun in self-defense, you're willing to kill somebody who threatens you -- or threatens your property.

See, two can play this game.
 
From the passage Hink quoted, the description sounds like forcing the woman to drink pennyroyal tea to make sure that if she was pregnant, she'd lose the baby. You can call it whatever euphemism you want to, but inducing a miscarriage = abortion in my book.



I will repeat my stance once again: what I believe is irrelevant because not everybody shares my beliefs. Freedom of conscience applies to everybody, NOT just those with whom we agree or those who believe the way the majority believes.

Since you want to press absolutes, why do you keep a gun for protection? Doesn't the Bible say "thou shall not kill"? It doesn't say "thou shall not murder" or "thou can kill in self defense". In fact, Jesus said to turn the other cheek, but, by being ready to use your gun in self-defense, you're willing to kill somebody who threatens you -- or threatens your property.

See, two can play this game.

I guess it depends on which translation you read. The King James Bible (KJV), and several others, uses the word "kill". However, the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, HCSB, ERV, GWT, ISR, ISV, NET, WEB, YLT, and JPS versions of the bible all use the word "murder".

This is a topic that theologians have discussed for quite some time.

I agree with turn the other cheek concept up until it is kill or be killed. The only time my gun would come out of the holster is when I am positive that my life, or the life of another is in jeopardy. Psalm 82:4 "rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked." Stealing my car, my phone, my possessions is not worthy of doing more than calling the police. But when a life is on the line, that is a different story.

More so, there are points in the bible, where it people are called on to kill another. For example, in Leviticus 24:16-17 it states "And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the Lord, he shall be put to death. Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death." Now I have no intention on putting anyone to death that blasphemes GOD, but you get my point.

But I am glad that we have it cleared up. You believe that Miscarriage is Abortion.
 
Furthermore, at what point is a fetus "life"?

This is something that you simply have to recognize a need to agree to disagree.

For me personally, my trigger point is when the fetus has a 50% or better chance of survival. Given current medical technology, that occurs at around 25 weeks.

I would feel much differently about abortion regulation if there were meaningful efforts toward unwanted pregnancy prevention, a better domestic foster-adoption that more effectively protects adoptive parents, and basically a system that cared about children & families after they were born.
 
This is something that you simply have to recognize a need to agree to disagree.

For me personally, my trigger point is when the fetus has a 50% or better chance of survival. Given current medical technology, that occurs at around 25 weeks.

I would feel much differently about abortion regulation if there were meaningful efforts toward unwanted pregnancy prevention, a better domestic foster-adoption that more effectively protects adoptive parents, and basically a system that cared about children & families after they were born.

Even though I disagree with your trigger point, I respect your courage not avoid the question and make a thoughtful answer.

I agree with the second part of your statement. I know several people who can't have kids and the red tape and cost of adoption is a bit overwhelming for them. I also agree that there needs to be far better education and preventative recourses out there, especially in areas of minority concentrations.
 
Yeah, doesn't need to happen in white areas because white women never get pregnant out of wedlock.:r:

Birth rates per 1,000 females ages 15-19, by race/ethnicity, 1990-2012
teenbirthsgraph2011.png

LINK

I stand by my statement.
 
Birth rates per 1,000 females ages 15-19, by race/ethnicity, 1990-2012
teenbirthsgraph2011.png

LINK

I stand by my statement.

And your statement is incredibly tone deaf, judgmental and completely lacking in understanding. Further, it's more than a bit hypocritical on your part. Just remember, some of the stuff you have done, that you let us know about, would be completely unacceptable to other people.
 
And your statement is incredibly tone deaf, judgmental and completely lacking in understanding. Further, it's more than a bit hypocritical on your part. Just remember, some of the stuff you have done, that you let us know about, would be completely unacceptable to other people.

So are you telling me that it is a bad idea to target resources where they are most needed. If you re-read my statement, I did not say that they need to only be in area of high concentration of minorities, but "there needs to be far better education and preventative resources out there, especially in areas of minority concentrations." These are not some far extremest ideas, that link is to a report that the US Department of Heath and Human Services put out. They already have some targeting approaches that they have been doing in inner city schools and among single parent households. Isn't that what CDBG funding does, but with incomes?

As for other people not agreeing with me, I understand that. I have had these same conversations in public and some people don't agree, have gotten very heated because I did not agree with their view point. Maister and I have been friends for quite some time, and he knows that I don't judge people based on their political, religious, or other believes, but by their actions. Maister is a great person who I respect immensely, even though we don't agree on most things.
 
Hmmm

Kind of funny how the highest concentrations of high teen birth rates is primarily located in the red states:D AKA the bible belt.......

But that's not why I'm on here......

So we went to war for 10 years and lost thousands of lives looking for WMD's in Iraq.......anyone remember that??

Woke up this morning to find out nuclear material was stolen from a "University" in Iraq:-@ WTF!!!! Really......a decade of war to look for "nuclear" material....thousands of lost lives....to find nothing......and NOW there just happens to be material.......I'm in the %#@king Twilight Zone!!!

And all our idiot reporters can do is ask why it wasn't better protected??? Not how did it get there......
 
So are you telling me that it is a bad idea to target resources where they are most needed. If you re-read my statement, I did not say that they need to only be in area of high concentration of minorities, but "there needs to be far better education and preventative resources out there, especially in areas of minority concentrations." These are not some far extremest ideas, that link is to a report that the US Department of Heath and Human Services put out. They already have some targeting approaches that they have been doing in inner city schools and among single parent households. Isn't that what CDBG funding does, but with incomes?

As for other people not agreeing with me, I understand that. I have had these same conversations in public and some people don't agree, have gotten very heated because I did not agree with their view point. Maister and I have been friends for quite some time, and he knows that I don't judge people based on their political, religious, or other believes, but by their actions. Maister is a great person who I respect immensely, even though we don't agree on most things.

The point I was trying to make is that you are making moral judgments on single moms because that is against your morality, i.e.,, babies should only be born to married people. However, you have done things that would be morally objectionable to others.
 
The point I was trying to make is that you are making moral judgments on single moms because that is against your morality, i.e.,, babies should only be born to married people. However, you have done things that would be morally objectionable to others.

Hold on a second... show me where I posted that. You can't because I never even implied it and your point is nothing but an unfounded accusation based on the realization I don't agree with everything that you agree with. I have zero moral judgments on single moms. The link that I posted is teen pregnancy. Go back and look at the statistics a bit more. only 55% of teenage mothers graduate HS or get a GED by the age of 22. More so it costs tax payers $9.2 billion every year. As I said before, I am pro-choice up until conception. If teens are going to have sex, we need to do a better job of teaching them how to be safe. How is that creating a moral judgement against single mothers?

Am I against abortion... yes. That is no secret and all my friends and family know it, my coworkers know it, and my neighbors know it. If the topic comes up and they start discussing it, I don't sit there and remain silent like a sheeple. I stand up for what I believe. But do a shun someone who as had an abortion or look at them in negative light? No, and I know of many women that have. Some a close friends of my wife and I. It is just a decision that I don't agree with. You just assume that because I am not with you, on a few things, I am against you on everything.

Take this situation with immigration. We need to find a better way to handle the influx of immigrants. The current system is way too complicated and I doubt most people in America would be able to pass everything that they need to do. If someone wants to be a US citizen, then I think there needs to be a way to make that happen. I think that these children that are coming over the boarder need to be helped. I don't think that some blanket amnesty program is the answer, but it should be something a notch above that. That way we know who is here, if they have a criminal history, or worse, if they are on a terrorist watch list.


Kind of funny how the highest concentrations of high teen birth rates is primarily located in the red states:D AKA the bible belt.......

But that's not why I'm on here......

So we went to war for 10 years and lost thousands of lives looking for WMD's in Iraq.......anyone remember that??

Woke up this morning to find out nuclear material was stolen from a "University" in Iraq:-@ WTF!!!! Really......a decade of war to look for "nuclear" material....thousands of lost lives....to find nothing......and NOW there just happens to be material.......I'm in the %#@king Twilight Zone!!!

And all our idiot reporters can do is ask why it wasn't better protected??? Not how did it get there......

We should have never invaded Iraq. As for the theft, I am confused, in the NYT story, they say it is not a risk, but they also say it could be used to make WMD's. So, which is it?
 
Woke up this morning to find out nuclear material was stolen from a "University" in Iraq:-@ WTF!!!! Really......a decade of war to look for "nuclear" material....thousands of lost lives....to find nothing......and NOW there just happens to be material.......I'm in the %#@king Twilight Zone!!!

And all our idiot reporters can do is ask why it wasn't better protected??? Not how did it get there......

Supposedly it isn't nuculur nuculur, only nuclear and not bomb-makeable. I doubt NSA-CIA would have let us know had it been weapons grade, and if it was, you'd be guaranteed McCain and the other warmongers would be blaming Obummer. Far more dangerous is the bank robbery and all the cash in the hands of very bad people.
 
So what......

Supposedly it isn't nuculur nuculur, only nuclear and not bomb-makeable. I doubt NSA-CIA would have let us know had it been weapons grade, and if it was, you'd be guaranteed McCain and the other warmongers would be blaming Obummer. Far more dangerous is the bank robbery and all the cash in the hands of very bad people.

Sadly NONE of that matters (certainly not the facts). Just imagine anything nuclear at all being used for terror purposes. Wouldn't it still be the first use of any nuclear material for an attack since WWII??? Or did I miss something?

ahh.....Dear NSA: Nothing to see here, we are just exercising our first amendment rights to free speech. Keep up the GREAT work ok.
 
Just imagine anything nuclear at all being used for terror purposes. Wouldn't it still be the first use of any nuclear material for an attack since WWII??? Or did I miss something?

Just what exactly would they do with these reagents and compounds (presuming the reports are true and not planted by the uber-patriotic see-eye-eh) for terra purposes?
 
Ahhh

Just what exactly would they do with these reagents and compounds (presuming the reports are true and not planted by the uber-patriotic see-eye-eh) for terra purposes?

{comment redacted} and [statement rescinded]. I'm sure they would (quashed verbage). Then again maybe something very creative like, {invalidated statement}.
 
{comment redacted} and [statement rescinded]. I'm sure they would (quashed verbage). Then again maybe something very creative like, {invalidated statement}.

*bows deeply*

Well done.

Nevertheless, the bank they overtook and the money they appropriated will do far, far, far more damage than some (purportedly) low-grade nuckyoolur material - useful nuke is actually pretty well defended by the int'l community and would have been moved the second this threat noticed. The money they now have is far more radioactive and deadly.
 
But Viagra's covered!

Nice article. Highlights:


...their understanding of which medications act as abortifacients rests on an outdated understanding of medical science and is at odds with the facts of the matter. Use of these contraceptive methods is not tantamount to abortion, and moreover, providing women with access to safe, reliable contraceptives for free drastically reduces the actual abortion rate.
...
The company continues to profit from investments in the manufacturers of the "objectionable" contraceptives through the 401(k) plan it offers its employees. Recently, Hobby Lobby has faced legal trouble for false advertising. It has built a fortune, in large part, by selling goods manufactured in China, infamous for its poor labor conditions and related human rights violations. These are the practices of a corporation that will emphasize the Christian faith of its owners when convenient and profitable, but set that faith aside when it would be costly to do otherwise.​
 
...
The company continues to profit from investments in the manufacturers of the “objectionable” contraceptives through the 401(k) plan it offers its employees. Recently, Hobby Lobby has faced legal trouble for false advertising. It has built a fortune, in large part, by selling goods manufactured in China, infamous for its poor labor conditions and related human rights violations. These are the practices of a corporation that will emphasize the Christian faith of its owners when convenient and profitable, but set that faith aside when it would be costly to do otherwise.[/INDENT][/I]

hobby-lobby-ruling-cartoon-morin-495x319.jpg
 

Haters gonna hate, although I agree they are not perfect under any stretch of the imagination.



On a different political topic, Israel and Hamas in the Gaza strip. Personally, I think we need to stay the heck out unless it is to offer humanitarian aid. I don't think we should fund the military on either side, I don't think that we should send troops, at most I think we should send the Red Cross. I think if the UN wants to step in, then we can offer the UN support... but even that is questionable.
 
Haters gonna hate, although I agree they are not perfect under any stretch of the imagination.



On a different political topic, Israel and Hamas in the Gaza strip. Personally, I think we need to stay the heck out unless it is to offer humanitarian aid. I don't think we should fund the military on either side, I don't think that we should send troops, at most I think we should send the Red Cross. I think if the UN wants to step in, then we can offer the UN support... but even that is questionable.

And most recently Israel agreed to a cease-fire and Hamas said f*** off (well maybe not those words but that was the intent).
 
There certainly seems to be a heightened level of problems happening in the entire region. Israel - Hamas with Gaza, and then the rise of the ISIS towards Syria and Iraq.
 
Can someone please tell me how some people think that Spielberg actually killed a dinosaur?

Well, there's always the good folks at the Creationism Museum...

256gwso.jpg



(Let it be known I agree with the sentiment of the article you posted that basically everybody knows he didn't actually kill a dinosaur but basically everybody believed they were the only ones who realized that)
 
Well, there's always the good folks at the Creationism Museum...

256gwso.jpg



(Let it be known I agree with the sentiment of the article you posted that basically everybody knows he didn't actually kill a dinosaur but basically everybody believed they were the only ones who realized that)

:r: What? The Creationist Museum Says that Spielberg was alive thousands of years ago? Now that's just silly. :r:

Here is my favorite exhibit from the Creation museum in Glendive Montana
O7W2gzo.jpg



http://www.creationtruth.org/

Maybe the Dinosaurs missed the boat.
 

It is sh*t like this that make the Republican party (fair or not) the butt of so many jokes. The xenophobia of some on the right seems like an episode of The Daily Show but sadly is very very real.

On a much more serious topic. If MH 17 was truly shot down by a missle, things are about to go to hell in Eastern Europe. What a very very sad story and I am hoping that the jet was actually not shot down.
 
On a much more serious topic. If MH 17 was truly shot down by a missle, things are about to go to hell in Eastern Europe. What a very very sad story and I am hoping that the jet was actually not shot down.

I too hope that it was not shot down, but most media is saying that it was a surface to ground missile, and the Ukraine is saying that it didn't shoot it down. Which leaves terrorists or Russia. If it was Russia, all hell is about to break loose.

Which makes me wonder, if it was Russia, and things get bad over there, should the US step in?
 
Which makes me wonder, if it was Russia, and things get bad over there, should the US step in?

I hope not, but you know we will. I would rather us step in to negotiate truce/armistice/peace treaties to end hostilities, not play an active role in them.

If it was Russia or the Russian-sympathizing rebels, I can't imagine the EU standing idly by twiddling its collective thumbs. I don't believe Ukraine did it.
 
I agree with both of you. Personally, I think we should stay out and let the UN handle it. We have no right being the police force for the planet. Maybe we can offer assistance, but I believe that too should be more humanitarian than combat based.

I also find it surprising that they are now questioning if it was shot down. On CNN, they have a quote from a Sr. White House Official that said that they have radar indication that it was a missile.

I feel bad for the families of the almost 300 people, 23 of them from the US apparently.
 
I hope not, but you know we will. I would rather us step in to negotiate truce/armistice/peace treaties to end hostilities, not play an active role in them.

If it was Russia or the Russian-sympathizing rebels, I can't imagine the EU standing idly by twiddling its collective thumbs. I don't believe Ukraine did it.

Surely we didn't want anyone talking this way when we shot down Iran Air Flight 655.
 
Obamacare seems to be slowly unraveling....

CNN said:
In a 2-1 ruling, a three-judge panel found the federal money that helped people afford health insurance only could go to those who signed up through exchanges run by states.

That's what the law specified, the ruling said, meaning those who signed up through the federal government aren't eligible for the subsidies that helped them afford coverage.
CNN LINK

I wonder how long it will take before SCOTUS gets this one too.
 
Ha!

At least with the affordable care act our children get coverage to age 26 and there is more coverage.....insurance companies are showing us they intend to keep their double digit price increases no matter what happens to the act. Capitalism has no place in medical care, only the research and development side.
 
Is this sarcasm? The difference between the two incidents is like night and day.

What makes these incidents so different? In both cases, military forces mistook civilian planes from nations that had no part in the war for "enemy" aircraft and blew them out of the sky.
 
What makes these incidents so different? In both cases, military forces mistook civilian planes from nations that had no part in the war for "enemy" aircraft and blew them out of the sky.

The US warships had sophisticated coms, did everything they could to identify an aircraft that posed a threat, got no reply, and protected our troops.

The rebels (assuming), had no coms, did nothing but assume the aircraft was hostile, and fired on it. At the altitude of the plane, they could not have been targets,


If you did a Venn diagram, the only thing in the middle would be, "A Plane was Shot Down."
 
The US warships had sophisticated coms, did everything they could to identify an aircraft that posed a threat, got no reply, and protected our troops...

That was the assessment in the initial report filed days after by the crew of the USS Vincennes. The subsequent report filed a few months later by the IG's office at the DoD found that the Vincennes was trying to communicate to the Iran Air flight on the wrong frequency and that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters without authorization and that the flight was flying in established commercial flight paths and ascending, not descending quickly and outside of those paths. The IG's report implicitly blamed the comm staff of the Vincennes.

1988 article from the Boston Globe:
However, the 53-page report, by Rear Adm. William M. Fogarty of the U.S. Central Command, also finds - though it does not say so directly - that nearly all the details about the downing reported at that first news briefing were incorrect.

For example:

*At the original news briefing on July 3, Adm. William J. Crowe, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the plane was flying at 9,000 feet and descending at a "high speed" of 450 knots, "headed directly" for the Vincennes.

In fact, the report concludes - based on computer tapes inside the Vincennes' combat information center - that the plane "was ascending through 12,000 feet at a speed of approximately 380 knots," and that it had reached 13,500 feet by the time the missile knocked it out of the sky. "At no time" did the Airbus "actually descend in altitude," the report said....

...The report confirms earlier admissions that the plane had been flying "within the established air route."

*Crowe had also said, "There were electronic indications on Vincennes that led it to believe that the aircraft was an F-14." A Pentagon spokesman, Dan Howard, elaborated later, saying that the plane's identification beacon, known as a transponder, was "squawking" a code over "Mode 2" - a military channel - and that the code was "very similar" to that emitted just days earlier by known F-14s.

Howard further said the Vincennes crew had "interrogated" the beacon three times and had received the military code each time.

However, the report says the Iranian plane "was not squawking Mode 2" at any time, and that a radar operator on the Vincennes received this signal only once - not three times. The report says the signal was probably coming from a military aircraft on the ground at Bandar Abbas aircraft, most likely a C-130 transport plane, an F-4 fighter or an F-14.

This happened, the report says, because a Vincennes radar operator who "read" the plane's beacon while it was still on the ground accidentally kept the target indicator focused on the ground for 90 seconds after the plane took off.
 
The US warships had sophisticated coms, did everything they could to identify an aircraft that posed a threat, got no reply, and protected our troops.

The rebels (assuming), had no coms, did nothing but assume the aircraft was hostile, and fired on it. At the altitude of the plane, they could not have been targets,


If you did a Venn diagram, the only thing in the middle would be, "A Plane was Shot Down."

I'll stand by my statement. Yes, there were differences in the situations but essentially it comes down to troops in a war zone misidentified a civilian aircraft and shot it down. There's no "day and night" between the two incidents. Both are the kinds of tragedies that often happen when people, some of whom may be barely competent with the equipment they're using, are put in stressful situations. I would certainly call soldiers/sailors in a war zone fitting that description.
 
That was the assessment in the initial report filed days after by the crew of the USS Vincennes. The subsequent report filed a few months later by the IG's office at the DoD found that the Vincennes was trying to communicate to the Iran Air flight on the wrong frequency and that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters without authorization and that the flight was flying in established commercial flight paths and ascending, not descending quickly and outside of those paths. The IG's report implicitly blamed the comm staff of the Vincennes.

1988 article from the Boston Globe:

Well, I stand corrected. I'd never read the follow up report. The original depiction was that Iran sacrificed their own people to make the US look bad in the eyes of the world.

So, yes, it seems there are similar elements, apologies to COLGI and Linda_D.
 
Looks like Andrew Cuomo's opponents (Clinton) are eliminating is chance for a presidential run early.

Link

“The thing that bothered me the most is we were created with all this fanfare and the governor was going to clean up Albany,” said Barbara Bartoletti, legislative director for the League of Women Voters of New York State and a special adviser to the commission. “And it became purely a vehicle for the governor to get legislation. Another notch for his re-election campaign. That was it.”
 
Looks like Andrew Cuomo's opponents (Clinton) are eliminating is chance for a presidential run early.

Link

So Hils can direct the NYT to conduct a three-month investigation into whether a leading politician has, over the past year, scuttled investigations into his re-election campaign centerpiece?

The pow-ahhhhhhhh.
 
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