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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Russ Feingold is out.

De-frocked Democrat USSentaor Russ Feingold (he lost his 'Class 3' US Senate seat to Republican Ron Johnson last fall) is out of consideration for any further statewide office in Wisconsin. He was considered a favorite in either a potential recall attempt against Governor Scott Walker or for the 'Class 1' USSenate seat that is being vacated by fellow Democrat Herb Kohl, up in 2012.

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/128062693.html

Other than for MAYBE City of Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett (he lost to Scott Walker last fall), I know of no other Democrat with a currently electable level of statewide drawing power in Wisconsin. We'll just have to see.

Mike
 
Can you imagine, for just a short bit, what the press corps, as well as all of the lefties in here, would be doing right now had a *REPUBLICAN* committed even ONE TENTH of the gaffs and errors in fact that Joe Biden has so far during his visit to China?

8-!

It is beyond embarrassing and, IMHO, sets back the USA's foreign affairs cause by years.

:-@

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
Can you imagine, for just a short bit, what the press corps, as well as all of the lefties in here, would be doing right now had a *REPUBLICAN* committed even ONE TENTH of the gaffs and errors in fact that Joe Biden has so far during his visit to China?
Click to expand...

You mean Republicans like Dan Quayle or George W. Bush? No, I can't imagine that at all.

Ooooh, and I just LOVE being called a "lefty." It overlooks all the distinctions among people who don't hate President Obama and lumps us all together in a warm fuzzy blanket of vaguery. Awesome!

All that being said, Biden certainly is a bumbler. He was a good senator, though (as someone who grew up very close to Delaware). Still, its all a bit embarrassing.
 
tarf12345678 said:
Decided lack of success?

They defended all their seats subject to recall, and took 2 of the republican seats - coming in only one shy of what was needed to get a majority.

How is that a "decided lack of success"??? Sure, they didn't get the majority, but they came damned close - in my book, that's a near success, not decided lack of.
Click to expand...

mgk920 said:
Spin, spin, spin....

I stand by my words 'decided lack of success'. If I was to parrot your lefty talking points of wisdom regarding politics in Wisconsin over the past year, you would be saying that scoring two runs in the bottom of the ninth was a rousing success for your team in a playoff game seven - even though your team just lost 9-8 (and with a team payroll that was double that of every other team in the playoffs).
Click to expand...

Your baseball analogy doesn't really hold water. In baseball, those runs are unchanging. You are correct that Team A still wins and Team B loses; that 9th run from Team A isn't going to change sides on a whim.

In the Wisconsin State Senate, Team A is the Republicans and Team B is the Democrats. Before the recall election the score was 19-14 with the R's on top. However, that 5-run lead could theoretically switch sides if 5 Republican senators decided to note vote strictly along party lines. I'm not saying it's likely to occur, but it's definitely not outside the realm of possibility.

After the August recall votes, the score has changed again and it's now 17-16 with the R's still clinging to a lead. All the D's need to do to get a vote to go their way is to convince 1 Republican senator to vote with them on a piece of legislation (as long as all the other Dems vote the same way of course). Again, it won't be an easy task to wrestle away that one R vote, but it is possible and much more easily accomplished than wrestling away 5 votes.

In the end, even though the scoreboard may read 17-16 or 19-14 or even 32-1, the game isn't over.
 
wahday said:
You mean Republicans like Dan Quayle or George W. Bush? No, I can't imagine that at all.

Ooooh, and I just LOVE being called a "lefty." It overlooks all the distinctions among people who don't hate President Obama and lumps us all together in a warm fuzzy blanket of vaguery. Awesome!

All that being said, Biden certainly is a bumbler. He was a good senator, though (as someone who grew up very close to Delaware). Still, its all a bit embarrassing.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. mgk's confrontational and simple-minded politics-baiting reminds me a lot of the uncle I had to block on facebook (one more misuse of the phrase "banana republic" might have sent me over the edge.)

mgk, your baseball analogy for the WI recalls suggest to me that you really do see politics as an us vs. them/black and white kind of game. Don't you see how that attitude is bad for our country?I think a lot of Americans - myself included - would prefer that our politics were less like a game.
 
wahday said:
You mean Republicans like Dan Quayle or George W. Bush? No, I can't imagine that at all.

Ooooh, and I just LOVE being called a "lefty." It overlooks all the distinctions among people who don't hate President Obama and lumps us all together in a warm fuzzy blanket of vaguery. Awesome!

All that being said, Biden certainly is a bumbler. He was a good senator, though (as someone who grew up very close to Delaware). Still, its all a bit embarrassing.
Click to expand...

This sums up my annoyance with many when discussing politics. The asinine name calling - socialist, communist, obamacare, teabaggers, etc.; the vague generalities - lefties, right-wing, etc.; and the need to be correct all make valid debatable issues become muck. Muck creation is good money though, so that is why the media is so apt to continue down the slippery slope, but we the people don't have to.

I don't see the value in stating that one side is so awful for X, when you know perfectly well that the other side does it too. Lets start a list...

-Talking points? Both sides - check.
-Healthcare Mandate? Both sides - check.
-Bumbling idiot leaders? Both sides - check.
-Love of the Country? Both sides - check.
-Failed policies. Both sides - check.

I mean what are you hoping to accomplish by stating Obama wants to see America fail? Are you hoping to scare people into voting him out? Why can't people want to vote him out because his policies aren't what you think our country should be doing?

There are too many smart people that are falling into this trap. I have numerous friends that I can't talk politics with because they are just so lost in the minutia that it is pointless.
 
Well, it looks like our elected officials here in Michigan are about to give me another pay cut:

Michigan Senate passes bill capping health premiums for government, school workers

So while being in my current position for about 4.5 years, I've advanced my education receiving my masters degree (on my own dime), taken 2 pay cuts of 2.5% each, been told there will be no raises until at least October 2014 and have been shut out of promotions because of a hiring freeze that was enacted shortly after I came on-board (essentially eliminating any position above me once it is vacated).

I already make significantly less than my friends and peers doing similar work in the private sector locally and have benefits that are only marginally better than them. Now, by my calculations, this legislation will result in another 6% pay cut (or 5% if my employer decides to "opt out") or substantially reduced health care benefits and higher co-pays.

I don't know how the elected Republican representatives who are always talking about how they want less regulation and more local control can possibly justify this. And if the governor does indeed sign it, I would hope that some municipalities challenge the legislation. I've heard rumblings from local governments that it's getting increasingly more difficult to find qualified and experienced employees (as well as retain the employees already on the job) and I cannot imagine that this would help those efforts.

Maybe it's time to finally take the plunge and jump to the dark side of commercial real estate like I originally planned.

[/venting]
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/b...city-files-for-bankruptcy.html?pagewanted=all

It looks like that is the norm now - with reduced pay and benefits. Some cities are actually reducing pensions for existing retired workers, in some cases those workers don't recieve social security and they are reducing pensions of 80 year old firefighters by as much as 75%. Let's also get rid of medicare while we are at it. All wonderful ideas. :-@

I think a lot of public agencies are very close to losing any talent they may have retained, as the talented employees will only take so much before they jump ship.
 
At least Biden didn't fall ill and blow chow on a foreign head of state (bad sushi if I recall). So he's got that going for him.
 
kalimotxo said:
My thoughts exactly. mgk's confrontational and simple-minded politics-baiting reminds me a lot of the uncle I had to block on facebook (one more misuse of the phrase "banana republic" might have sent me over the edge.)

mgk, your baseball analogy for the WI recalls suggest to me that you really do see politics as an us vs. them/black and white kind of game. Don't you see how that attitude is bad for our country?I think a lot of Americans - myself included - would prefer that our politics were less like a game.
Click to expand...
Domestic politics in the USA today is NOTHING like it was over a century ago. You know the guy whose face graces the front of the USA $10 bill? Remember how he died? (It was in a 'ten paces, turn and shoot' duel with a political opponent.)

As for the recent political battle in Wisconsin, early on Governor Walker offered to sit down with the Democrats to help craft a much more agreeable to all budget repair bill. The response from the Democrats was for them to pick up their ball and flee to Illinois. So much for 'bi-partisanship'.

:r:

'Politics' is not about sitting around a campfire and singing Kumbaya, it is indeed about *WINNING*. Getting together, give and take compromise, accommodations, etc, is about GOVERNING.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
Domestic politics in the USA today is NOTHING like it was over a century ago. You know the guy whose face graces the front of the USA $10 bill? Remember how he died? (It was in a 'ten paces, turn and shoot' duel with a political opponent.)

As for the recent political battle in Wisconsin, early on Governor Walker offered to sit down with the Democrats to help craft a much more agreeable to all budget repair bill. The response from the Democrats was for them to pick up their ball and flee to Illinois. So much for 'bi-partisanship'.

:r:

'Politics' is not about sitting around a campfire and singing Kumbaya, it is indeed about *WINNING*. Getting together, give and take compromise, accommodations, etc, is about GOVERNING.

Mike
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Oh please. There has never been a duel in history due to political differences. It was a personal conflict that happened to stem from a political competition. To suggest that this is a model for the way politics has historically functioned suggests to me that you share more with Michelle Bachmann than political leanings. Tone down the generalizations and unnecessary use of the caps lock key, and you might find more "lefties" here willing to have a spirited debate with you. Oh, but you came here to fight... because politics is about *WINNING*.
 
mgk920 said:
.....
As for the recent political battle in Wisconsin, early on Governor Walker offered to sit down with the Democrats to help craft a much more agreeable to all budget repair bill. The response from the Democrats was for them to pick up their ball and flee to Illinois. So much for 'bi-partisanship'.
......
Mike
Click to expand...

Again you continue to lie.

The "agreeable to all budget repair bill." was a sham. Similar to Kasich's recent suggestion that changes to an even more draconian bill passed in Ohio could be modified. There was never ANY intention to bargain in good faith in WI.

Your baseball analogy is flawed, as there is a republican that voted a few times against walkers bills. The working majority Walker had is finished. That budget bill could not pass at this point with the offensive parts included. Walker will face recall at some point next year.

Their decision can be seen as justified, as not a single democrat was punished for using the extraordinary maneuver.
 
Rick Perry scored some BIG TIME 'Brownie points' with me during a discussion he had with a bunch of (hypocritical) Iowa corn farmers regarding ethanol mandates and subsidies - and the farmers' reaction to that discussion - a few days ago. It was a lot more than I could ever hope for from the likes of Mitt Romney or John McCain.

:)

Ditto Obamacare™ - stating that he'll relieve us of as many of its burdens as he can via an executive order (by issuing BHO-style exemptions to everybody as part of it?) on his first day in office.

:h:

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
Rick Perry scored some BIG TIME 'Brownie points' with me during a discussion he had with a bunch of (hypocritical) Iowa corn farmers regarding ethanol mandates and subsidies - and the farmers' reaction to that discussion - a few days ago. It was a lot more than I could ever hope for from the likes of Mitt Romney or John McCain.

:)

Ditto Obamacare™ - stating that he'll relieve us of as many of its burdens as he can via an executive order (by issuing BHO-style exemptions to everybody as part of it?) on his first day in office.

:h:

Mike
Click to expand...

Rick Perry benefitted from farm subsidies from 1991-1998 while serving as Agriculture Commissioner for the State of Texas. Even though it was a small amount of money, the fact is that he was VERY supportive of various other ag incentives during his time as Agriculture Commissioner that had the same basic effect as direct subsidies. In 1995, he was an avid supporter of ethanol subsidies and mandates. It was only after Bo Pilgrim (Pilgrim's Pride) started funneling money and lobbying to Perry in 2007 that he changed positions.

Conservative darling Bachmann also has the same problem with having benefited from subsidies.

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/will-subsidies-to-farmer-perry-come-back-to-1709438.html
 
^^
You mean that it might not be possible to 'grow' as one matures (in office and otherwise)?

^o)

There are many views that I hold now that are 180 degrees different from ones that I held when I was much younger, too, before I 'grew'.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
^^
You mean that it might not be possible to 'grow' as one matures (in office and otherwise)?

^o)

There are many views that I hold now that are 180 degrees different from ones that I held when I was much younger, too, before I 'grew'.

Mike
Click to expand...

It is absolutely possible to grow and develop new perspectives. My issue is that Perry has a pretty long pattern in Texas of taking opportunist political positions in this state even when they contradict issues he has long-championed--to the point that I seriously doubt there is any 'growing' and believe the actions are solely for political expediency.
 
I think that Granderson (who I rarely agree with) has hit it on the head...

Huntsman, best candidate for a third party
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/30/granderson.huntsman/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

So even though independent voters may have questions about Obama's ability to help the economy, and they may agree with some of the fiscal talking points of his opponents, when given the choice between him and, say, a candidate who wants to make abortions illegal, or discriminates against gays or Muslims, well he becomes a lot more appealing.
Click to expand...

When voters are forced between what they believe is right for the country and their civil rights or the civil rights of others they're not really weighing legislative options, they're deciding which limb to cut off.
Click to expand...

I really hope that with the internet, and the ability to raise money a lot faster, we will see more third party candidates that get traction. I think the fiscally conservative, socially aware crowd vote would fund and vote a person like them in.
 
A first for me: a political sign for a Republican in my front yard! 8-! One of my oldest friends in the Jamestown area is running for the county legislature, so I told his wife that he could put a sign in my front yard.
 
I really like the fact that the president gets bashed (Bush, Obama, whoever) for taking a vacation and those silly people in Congress go on several vacations for multiple weeks and nobody says a thing.
 
I don't mind the vacations, but Congress takes recesses. I quit doing that in elementary school. No wonder they act like children.
 
So it isn't exactly political, but in some ways it is...

Top of Chinese wealthy's wish list? To leave China
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44422237/ns/business-world_business/#.TmeHkmqwUb4

The United States is the most popular destination for Chinese emigrants, with rich Chinese praising its education and healthcare systems. Last year, nearly 68,000 Chinese-born people became legal permanent residents of the U.S., seven percent of the total and second only to those born in Mexico. Canada and Australia are also popular.
Click to expand...

I don't usually beat my chest, but American exceptionalism does exist. I just wish those in Washington could understand that it will be lost when you get rid of education and healthcare, cut all programs and ignore the people.

People talk bad about the United States, but in the end, everyone likes the idea of America. We are even the coolest country - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/survey-finds-america-is-c_n_951022.html

The original article just made me think about our political system, and how closed minded it really is.
 
imaplanner said:
Obama is really proposing another stimulus that will be half tax cuts and way, way too small to actually do anything? http://www.nationaljournal.com/one-small-step-for-jobs-one-big-target-for-republicans-20110907

I'm not so sure Obama is very smart.
Click to expand...


What choice does he really have?

Do nothing? Not good for him (or the country).

Propose a stimulus bill that would actually be big enough to help bring unemployment below 8%? Probably wouldn't even be taken to the floor of the House for a vote - and if it were, it would fail. Never mind filibusters in the senate.

So his only remaining option is a small stimulus that may have a small chance of getting through Congress. While small, it still would add anywhere from 0.5 to 2 percent to GDP (depending on how fast/slow the money gets spent).

Obama is pragmatic is all. I personally wish he would come forward with a large enough stimulus bill to fix things, let the House reject it, then he could blame the Congress for not allowing him to fix the economy. *shrug*
 
New York State USHouse #9

Any thoughts on the special election on Tuesday, 2011-09-13 to fill that seat left vacant when Rep. Anthony Weiner resigned from office?

^o)

Me? Besides the huge shot that voters in NYC fired across the political bow of the White House, this just made redistricting New York's USHouse seats much more interesting. Before this special election, it was expected that the two parties would redraw the state's districts so that each would give up one of their traditional seats (New York lost two USHouse seats in the 2010 USCensus) and the 9th was the one that the Democrats were considered likely to sacrifice in that deal.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
Any thoughts on the special election on Tuesday, 2011-09-13 to fill that seat left vacant when Rep. Anthony Weiner resigned from office?

^o)

Me? Besides the huge shot that voters in NYC fired across the political bow of the White House, this just made redistricting New York's USHouse seats much more interesting. Before this special election, it was expected that the two parties would redraw the state's districts so that each would give up one of their traditional seats (New York lost two USHouse seats in the 2010 USCensus) and the 9th was the one that the Democrats were considered likely to sacrifice in that deal.

Mike
Click to expand...

Just like alcoholics, the GOP must hit rock bottom before it will get better.
 
Gerrymandering Deluxe!

Anybody get a chance to see the extreme re-districting submittal for northern Ohio? A skinny snake, following the Lake Erie shoreline from central Toledo to central Cleveland. Toledo will be divided into three separate congressional districts. Marcy Kaptur, one of the longest-serving females in Congress will likely face Dennis Kucinich in the next election.

Of course, Democrats vow to take the skinny snake to court. Gotta admit, Dems do the same gerrymandering dance when they have the opportunity (caused by the last Census).

This Bears opinion remains the same: Eliminate politics from redrawing districts. Hah hah hah.....fat chance.

Bear
 
Bear Up North said:
This Bears opinion remains the same: Eliminate politics from redrawing districts. Hah hah hah.....fat chance.
Click to expand...



It can happen - California just passed a voter initiated law for redistricting taking it out of the hands of politicians. We're not the only state either (from wiki):

To reduce the role that legislative politics might play, seven states (Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Minnesota, New Jersey and Washington), carry out congressional redistricting by an independent or bipartisan commission.
Click to expand...

In CA I believe it's a panel of judges who will decide.
 
tarf12345678 said:
It can happen - California just passed a voter initiated law for redistricting taking it out of the hands of politicians. We're not the only state either (from wiki):



In CA I believe it's a panel of judges who will decide.
Click to expand...

A panel of 36 citizens decided, and it was overwhelmingly approved...however the state GOP has sued to block the decision (of course because the possibility of the D's getting a super majority looked very real). Looking over the maps they were very fair. Case in point, I am currently represented by congressman Kevin McCarty R-Bakersfield, yet i live on the coast. Based on the pannel's decision, I am now in the district represented by Lois Capps-D, Santa Barbara, more inline to my political views. It can happen and wish more states followed the California model.
 
CPSURaf said:
A panel of 36 citizens decided, and it was overwhelmingly approved...however the state GOP has sued to block the decision (of course because the possibility of the D's getting a super majority looked very real). Looking over the maps they were very fair. Case in point, I am currently represented by congressman Kevin McCarty R-Bakersfield, yet i live on the coast. Based on the pannel's decision, I am now in the district represented by Lois Capps-D, Santa Barbara, more inline to my political views. It can happen and wish more states followed the California model.
Click to expand...


Will be interesting to see how it works out - as this redistricting will be combined with the new "jungle" primary system in the next elections. So if you're a republican now in a heavily democratic district, you may be "forced" to vote for a democrat in the general election (if the top two primary candidates are both democrats). Third party candidates, for the most part, will be gone entirely from the general election.
 
CPSURaf said:
A panel of 36 citizens decided, and it was overwhelmingly approved...however the state GOP has sued to block the decision (of course because the possibility of the D's getting a super majority looked very real). Looking over the maps they were very fair. Case in point, I am currently represented by congressman Kevin McCarty R-Bakersfield, yet i live on the coast. Based on the pannel's decision, I am now in the district represented by Lois Capps-D, Santa Barbara, more inline to my political views. It can happen and wish more states followed the California model.
Click to expand...
A couple of the old districts (the new ones have not yet been posted):

California USHouse #22:
http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/...eview/congdist/CA22_110.gif&imgW=750&imgH=452
Also note how district #20 pokes into the Bakersfield area from the south.

California USHouse #23:
http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/...eview/congdist/CA23_110.gif&imgW=750&imgH=452
Simply inexplicable.

Mike
 
Bear Up North said:
Anybody get a chance to see the extreme re-districting submittal for northern Ohio? A skinny snake, following the Lake Erie shoreline from central Toledo to central Cleveland. Toledo will be divided into three separate congressional districts. Marcy Kaptur, one of the longest-serving females in Congress will likely face Dennis Kucinich in the next election.

Of course, Democrats vow to take the skinny snake to court. Gotta admit, Dems do the same gerrymandering dance when they have the opportunity (caused by the last Census).

This Bears opinion remains the same: Eliminate politics from redrawing districts. Hah hah hah.....fat chance.

Bear
Click to expand...

Two R districts near me are being consolidated to give the Honorable Speaker John Boehner Wright Patterson Air Force Base. I was quite surprised to see the loss of an R district when they are very obviously trying to consolidate D districts and make less competition in current R districts.
 
CPSURaf said:
wish more states followed the California model.
Click to expand...

Let me jump on the bandwagon in saying I wish all states would eliminate gerrymandering. Partisan redistricting amounts to little more than a political spoils system - I thought we tried to eliminate that in the late 19th century.
 
I was reading today that this is the first time since the voting rights act that a democrat has been in charge of the white house during redistricting.
 
imaplanner said:
I was reading today that this is the first time since the voting rights act that a democrat has been in charge of the white house during redistricting.
Click to expand...

At a state level, I have a friend who had to move because the new boundary line was the center line of his road and he was on the wrong side. He is not happy about the move but understands the need.
 
imaplanner said:
I was reading today that this is the first time since the voting rights act that a democrat has been in charge of the white house during redistricting.
Click to expand...


Does the President even have a role in that? I thought it was all done at the state level?
 
tarf12345678 said:
Does the President even have a role in that? I thought it was all done at the state level?
Click to expand...

Per what I read the justice department (and ultimately the president) is responsible for reviewing redistricting to ensure it does not somehow violate the Civil Rights Act. For instance, if Detriot was split into 4 districts which gerrmandered each district to include a large amount of rural areas whereby the voting power of Detriot was dilluted to be worthless.
 
imaplanner said:
Per what I read the justice department (and ultimately the president) is responsible for reviewing redistricting to ensure it does not somehow violate the Civil Rights Act. For instance, if Detriot was split into 4 districts which gerrmandered each district to include a large amount of rural areas whereby the voting power of Detriot was dilluted to be worthless.
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And then if the City was made into just one USHouse district (the City of Detroit's population is very close to that of an 'ideal' USHouse district), then some other socio-ethnic group will whine and complain that THEY'RE not being adequately represented as a group and/or they're being lumped into too few districts. (I'd prefer to see 100% color and party-blind redistricting.)

I see a LOT of districts at all levels that have a small pie-slice of a major urban area, then extending well into the hinterlands, including some that have small pie-slices of two or more major metro areas, with wide swaths of rural land included between them.

Man, I *HATE* modern-day 'Groupthink™'!

:-{

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
And then if the City was made into just one USHouse district (the City of Detroit's population is very close to that of an 'ideal' USHouse district), then some other socio-ethnic group will whine and complain that THEY'RE not being adequately represented as a group and/or they're being lumped into too few districts. (I'd prefer to see 100% color and party-blind redistricting.)

I see a LOT of districts at all levels that have a small pie-slice of a major urban area, then extending well into the hinterlands, including some that have small pie-slices of two or more major metro areas, with wide swaths of rural land included between them.

Man, I *HATE* modern-day 'Groupthink™'!

:-{

Mike
Click to expand...

As opposed to olden days "Groupthink"? Bay of Pigs comes to mind...
 
This new Rick Perry ad is the most ostentatious, propagandist piece of garbage I've seen since the '04 election. Is he running for president or commissar?

"The United States of America is the last great hope of mankind."

The only thing missing is a Don LaFontaine voiceover.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44626194/ns/us_news-life/#.Tntm-eywUb4

Wow, just wow. Even if it is technically legal, it is ridiculously unethical. This is the kind of thing people fear from organized labor.

City of Chicago should change the law, and then ask the guy to do what is right and take is pension based on what he earned. Not the loophole. If he won't, make sure to make him an example at least.

I don't think any political persuasion would agree with this...
 
michaelskis said:
At a state level, I have a friend who had to move because the new boundary line was the center line of his road and he was on the wrong side. He is not happy about the move but understands the need.
Click to expand...

My representative has to move because of the new district lines. He could stay in his house, but then he'll have to compete with another very strong representative. It's kind of funny.
 
Nothing to do with his positions or political ideology, but I am honestly wondering if Rick Perry might have some actual mental retardation.
 
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