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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Happy Birthday Calvin Coolidge

About the Declaration there is a finality that is exceedingly restful
If all men are created equal, that is final.
If they are endowed with inalienable rights, that is final.
If governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, that is final.
No advance, no progress can be made beyond these propositions
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http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/07/01/2084176/born-on-the-fourth-of-july.html
online version of article printed in the Louisville Courier-Journal
 
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Well last week our fair Governor got his budget passed here in Ohio.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/06/30/kasichsignsbudget.html?sid=101

I am not a fan of Kasich. I think he wants to be a one term Governor and look for higher office after he "fixed" Ohio. I think he cares very little about Ohioans or about our welfare. This is blatantly obvious in his budget.

I think this is the new "fix" for all the state budget holes - put the burden on local governments and schools.

My favorite quote from our esteemed Governor (with my emphasis...)

The budget, which did not receive a single Democratic vote during its final passage this week, includes major changes and cuts to Ohio's schools, local governments, nursing homes, prisons, and development departments.

It addressed what began as an $8 billion deficit without raising state taxes, and includes tax breaks such as the elimination of the estate tax in 2013 and a tax credit for those who invest in Ohio companies.

State funding for local governments was cut by about $630 million over two years. Schools were cut by about $700 million and nursing homes were docked $340 million.

Speaking earlier today in Findlay, Ohio, Kasich challenged local governments directly to cope with their funding cuts without raising taxes.
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I think the audacity that he has is amazing. He isn't willing to raise taxes and then tells local governments that they will get 50% of the local government fund (which is our money to begin with) and shouldn't raise taxes.

He believes in smaller government and we should just be "more efficient". How should we do this you ask? He thinks we should consolidate into larger government units. Umm.... how does that make us smaller?

The last straw for me was that he put much of SB5 (a very unpopular union bill that passed our R legislature and was signed by him in March - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/31/national/main20049481.shtml ) into his budget. That is after news of the referendum signature votes came in...
http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...o-deliver-more-than-a-million-signatures.html

They needed 231,000 and got over 1.3million. The polls show that over 60% of people don't support the law - which not only attacks unions, but all public workers.

So now, instead of allowing the people to speak their mind - like he keeps saying they are doing through him - he is tying his budget to all the nonsense he put into SB5.

I find it amazing that these republican governors who the right tout as "leaders" are killing their local governments, getting below 40% of positive ratings in the polls, and doing nothing to improve the business climate of their states. Chris Christie - the poster child of R's has extremely low numbers with NJ voters and women especially because of his cutting of education in their state. He also yells (literally) at congress people for their spending, then uses the State Helicopter to go to his son's baseball game.

Ugh.
 
Florida's dear new Governor just kicked 1,600 employees to the streets...and that's how he is addressing unemployment.
 
The corporate media is starting to take notice of the extremism.

Republican party no longer a normal party

GOP has become a cult impervious to reason

GOP governors and congresspeople are quickly becoming super-unpopular. Even Christie- who the GOP and Fox News like to hype, has a lower approval rating than Obama. I don't see this radicalism working out for the GOP with the American electorate. However, the GOP clearly has a unified strategy of redistricting, of making it more difficult for low income people to vote, cutting the power of unions, and drawing unlimited corporate cash for elections. The will of the people may be less important in future elections if this strategy is successful.

The unfortunate thing is that as recently as a few years ago the GOP was a somewhat reasonable party with some good independent thinkers who would appeal to moderates and could actually govern responsibly.
 
imaplanner said:
The unfortunate thing is that as recently as a few years ago the GOP was a somewhat reasonable party with some good independent thinkers who would appeal to moderates and could actually govern responsibly.
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Could you possibly be referring to pre-War on Terror George W. Bush? :6:;):D
 
Planit said:
Florida's dear new Governor just kicked 1,600 employees to the streets...and that's how he is addressing unemployment.
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Connecticut just pink-slipped over 5,000 government workers after their union replied with an angry *NO*!!!! :-@ to a series of very reasonable contract concessions to close a severe imbalance in their state's budget.

This brings up a serious philosophical question - who does government exist for the benefit of, the public in providing necessary services or its own employees as a sort of super employment agency?

See what's happening on the streets of Athens (as in Greece) these days? That's what was going on on a much smaller scale on the streets of Madison, WI earlier this year and could well be going on on a full scale in Washington DC in just a few years - when the money completely runs out.

BTW, right now, unlike in Minnesota, Wisconsin's government is functioning fine and all of its state parks and campgrounds were open over this past weekend.

:h:

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
Connecticut just pink-slipped over 5,000 government workers after their union replied with an angry *NO*!!!! :-@ to a series of very reasonable contract concessions to close a severe imbalance in their state's budget. . .
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The CT state unions' vote to accept the governor's concessions actually had 60% of union members' votes. It fell short because of an additional rule where a certain number of unions needed to approve it but didn't.
 
Hink_Planner said:
Well last week our fair Governor got his budget passed here in Ohio.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/06/30/kasichsignsbudget.html?sid=101

I am not a fan of Kasich. I think he wants to be a one term Governor and look for higher office after he "fixed" Ohio. I think he cares very little about Ohioans or about our welfare. This is blatantly obvious in his budget.

I think this is the new "fix" for all the state budget holes - put the burden on local governments and schools.

My favorite quote from our esteemed Governor (with my emphasis...)



I think the audacity that he has is amazing. He isn't willing to raise taxes and then tells local governments that they will get 50% of the local government fund (which is our money to begin with) and shouldn't raise taxes.

He believes in smaller government and we should just be "more efficient". How should we do this you ask? He thinks we should consolidate into larger government units. Umm.... how does that make us smaller?

.
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He's taking a page out of the Indiana play book and probably the conservative republican govenor's playbook. What will be interesting is when the people don't get the services they have come to expect, roads , snow removal , adequate police and fire protection, etc. Efficiency only goes so far. I wonder how long before before he takes another page out of the Indiana playbook-privatinzation of government services and all the corruption that goes along with that.
 
Seabishop said:
The CT state unions' vote to accept the governor's concessions actually had 60% of union members' votes. It fell short because of an additional rule where a certain number of unions needed to approve it but didn't.
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How dare you provide factual evidence to refute of someone else's argument...that is almost un American!
 
Well it looks like William F. Buckley protege and senior editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, former writer for Buckley's National Review, and top conservative columnist David Brooks is going to be drummed out of the GOP after his article outlining the radicalist no-compromise group think mindset of the current GOP. Fox News is not happy.

On another note- why the US mainstream media blackout of the giant scandal involving Rupert Murdoch's goons hacking into phones and deleting key evidence from ongoing murder investigations?
 
imaplanner said:
Well it looks like William F. Buckley protege and senior editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, former writer for Buckley's National Review, and top conservative columnist David Brooks is going to be drummed out of the GOP after his article outlining the radicalist no-compromise group think mindset of the current GOP. Fox News is not happy.

On another note- why the US mainstream media blackout of the giant scandal involving Rupert Murdoch's goons hacking into phones and deleting key evidence from ongoing murder investigations?
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I was just going to say that I find myself nostalgic for the likes of Buckley. I didn't agree with much he said, but at least he was intelligent, thoughtful, and not just a yes-man. Things are getting a little scary right now for the R's. Very little room for public discourse on conservative thought - its just "sign this pledge on no taxes, and now this one on no debt ceiling raises without spending cuts and shut up about the details." Where are the thinkers?!

As for the hacking scandal, it (finally) made the front page of the NYTimes online edition today. Its the top headline right now...
 
mgk920 said:
Connecticut just pink-slipped over 5,000 government workers after their union replied with an angry *NO*!!!! :-@ to a series of very reasonable contract concessions to close a severe imbalance in their state's budget.
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Whoa, hold up... no layoffs yet. Unions are requesting Gov. re-open negotiations.
 
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hilldweller said:
Whoa, hold up... no layoffs yet. Unions are requesting Gov. re-open negotiations.
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Kewl!

:h:

It still frosts me when over 60% of the rank and file can say 'yes' and yet the union still officially rejects the offer. It seems like all too often, the unions' leaderships are in it only for themselves and couldn't care less about the members.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
It still frosts me when over 60% of the rank and file can say 'yes' and yet the union still officially rejects the offer. It seems like all too often, the unions' leaderships are in it only for themselves and couldn't care less about the members.
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I'll give you that. A lot of unions seem to be very undemocratic organizations, with shady characters at the top calling the shots.
 
Whose Yur Planner said:
He's taking a page out of the Indiana play book and probably the conservative republican govenor's playbook. What will be interesting is when the people don't get the services they have come to expect, roads , snow removal , adequate police and fire protection, etc. Efficiency only goes so far. I wonder how long before before he takes another page out of the Indiana playbook-privatinzation of government services and all the corruption that goes along with that.
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Well we haven't sold all our assets yet, but we are well on our way. I like the idea of using assets as a way to balance a budget.... no no I am sure that will work. We can continually sell roads and other infrastructure to private bodies until our budget is balanced... or at least until it looks like our budget is balanced... then give everyone tax breaks. :r:
 
hilldweller said:
Most businesses, religious organizations, govermental oganizations, corporations, unions, sports franchises, PTA groups, the APA, political organizations, media empires, seem to be very undemocratic organizations, with shady characters at the top calling the shots.
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Fixed it for you
 
hilldweller said:
C'mon man... the idea of union membership in itself implies way more of a democratic structure of goverance than a capitalistic business corporation. There's really no comparison.
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I agree. But my point is that pretty much all organizations are undemocratic with shady characters at the top. :)
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43734158/ns/politics/

Is this how we are doing government now? Instead of allowing the people to vote out those who they don't like you put in fake democrats to slow the process?

It is things like this that make the republican party look horrible. You espouse these moral values and push for the public being able to speak through elections, then this happens.

I would be embarrassed to be a Wisconsin republican right now. :r:
 
Hink_Planner said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43734158/ns/politics/

Is this how we are doing government now? Instead of allowing the people to vote out those who they don't like you put in fake democrats to slow the process?

It is things like this that make the republican party look horrible. You espouse these moral values and push for the public being able to speak through elections, then this happens.

I would be embarrassed to be a Wisconsin republican right now. :r:
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Don't forget the robocalls to registered democrats telling them not to vote on election day but rather to send in absentee ballots after the due date http://www.wisn.com/r/28525033/detail.html
 
...And the $20M+ in campaign money being poured into the state from out-of-state special interests under the name 'Real Wisconsin PAC'.

:r:

Oh yea, one of those 'fake' Democrats only lost his district's primary by about 7%.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
...And the $20M+ in campaign money being poured into the state from out-of-state special interests under the name 'Real Wisconsin PAC'.

:r:

Oh yea, one of those 'fake' Democrats only lost his district's primary by about 7%.

Mike
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You didn't have a problem with out of state money when California had a little proposal numbered 8. :r:

And I believe you supported the repeal of McCain-Feingold. Money is no longer a reason for a loss. Dirty money is everywhere, and this is somehow a good thing....

And that is sad that the "fake" democrat only lost by 7%. Really though it says a lot about the political system. Is this what we have come to? Screwing the people, so those in power can prove a point.

The Wisconsin governor did something the people didn't want to prove a point. The people will vote him out if they don't agree with him. The same can be said for the other R's who voted yes. That is the system. Putting in fake candidates and trying to screw the system says a lot about our political parties priorities... :-@
 
mgk920 said:
...And the $20M+ in campaign money being poured into the state from out-of-state special interests under the name 'Real Wisconsin PAC'.

:r:

Oh yea, one of those 'fake' Democrats only lost his district's primary by about 7%.

Mike
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That just means that more R's voted in that district. From what I understand, WI has open primary system and the people can temporarily switch teams (trying hard to make a semi off color joke here:a:).

The point is that the WI R's were playing games with the system so that it bought the R's some more time to cover their tracks.

As for money pouring in from outside, welcome to the post Citizens United world. It's a sword that can cut both ways. It's also a product of our media culture that nationalizes local or state elections combined with my team vs your team, winner takes all mentality.
 
So this debt talk really gets me...

A new poll out shows that people trust the President more than Republicans. Awesome. All that says to me is that the Republicans have again showed why they can't keep power. They are inflexible and unable to negotiate their views in the framework of compromise.

To me the fact that they got Obama to agree to over 3 trillion in cuts should be a win for them. It meets all criteria that they originally wanted. It does more for the debt than most people could imagine. But they can't compromise.

I am still lost on why the Republicans can't accept correcting loopholes (which yes would raise taxes, but only on those who should have been paying the taxes already) as a secondary way to raise revenues along with the spending cuts.

I don't think anyone thinks that we don't need to get the spending in check. We do. We need to review entitlements and all other spending. We need to cut, and cut big. I would imagine the 4 trillion number is pretty reasonable. But with that we need to raise revenue through the correction of our tax code. Call it what you will, but the combination of these two will put us in a very strong place for the coming years.

There are many ways to play games with spending. Defer the spending, hide it, move it, etc. Congress does this all the time with the CBO to make bills look more positive. That isn't the only answer.

I find it amazing that anyone would not want to use all available opportunities to make our debt better. But then again, the Republicans never have been good at winning public opinion, or staying in power.

My disappointment is that I agree with much of what the Republicans are trying to fight for. I just again am reminded of why they are continually losing public support....
 
If you are keeping track of how many days has Minnesota been shut down ? 14

What does it mean beyond their borders ?
 
Hink_Planner said:
I am still lost on why the Republicans can't accept correcting loopholes (which yes would raise taxes, but only on those who should have been paying the taxes already) as a secondary way to raise revenues along with the spending cuts.
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Maybe I am oversimplifying but I believe who are campaign contributors is the answer to this one Alex...
 
Hink_Planner said:
So this debt talk really gets me...

A new poll out shows that people trust the President more than Republicans. Awesome. All that says to me is that the Republicans have again showed why they can't keep power. They are inflexible and unable to negotiate their views in the framework of compromise.

To me the fact that they got Obama to agree to over 3 trillion in cuts should be a win for them. It meets all criteria that they originally wanted. It does more for the debt than most people could imagine. But they can't compromise.

I am still lost on why the Republicans can't accept correcting loopholes (which yes would raise taxes, but only on those who should have been paying the taxes already) as a secondary way to raise revenues along with the spending cuts.

I don't think anyone thinks that we don't need to get the spending in check. We do. We need to review entitlements and all other spending. We need to cut, and cut big. I would imagine the 4 trillion number is pretty reasonable. But with that we need to raise revenue through the correction of our tax code. Call it what you will, but the combination of these two will put us in a very strong place for the coming years.

There are many ways to play games with spending. Defer the spending, hide it, move it, etc. Congress does this all the time with the CBO to make bills look more positive. That isn't the only answer.

I find it amazing that anyone would not want to use all available opportunities to make our debt better. But then again, the Republicans never have been good at winning public opinion, or staying in power.

My disappointment is that I agree with much of what the Republicans are trying to fight for. I just again am reminded of why they are continually losing public support....
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Well said, my friend! This is a very frustrating situation indeed...
 
Hink_Planner said:
So this debt talk really gets me...

A new poll out shows that people trust the President more than Republicans. Awesome. All that says to me is that the Republicans have again showed why they can't keep power. They are inflexible and unable to negotiate their views in the framework of compromise.

To me the fact that they got Obama to agree to over 3 trillion in cuts should be a win for them. It meets all criteria that they originally wanted. It does more for the debt than most people could imagine. But they can't compromise.

I am still lost on why the Republicans can't accept correcting loopholes (which yes would raise taxes, but only on those who should have been paying the taxes already) as a secondary way to raise revenues along with the spending cuts.

I don't think anyone thinks that we don't need to get the spending in check. We do. We need to review entitlements and all other spending. We need to cut, and cut big. I would imagine the 4 trillion number is pretty reasonable. But with that we need to raise revenue through the correction of our tax code. Call it what you will, but the combination of these two will put us in a very strong place for the coming years.

There are many ways to play games with spending. Defer the spending, hide it, move it, etc. Congress does this all the time with the CBO to make bills look more positive. That isn't the only answer.

I find it amazing that anyone would not want to use all available opportunities to make our debt better. But then again, the Republicans never have been good at winning public opinion, or staying in power.

My disappointment is that I agree with much of what the Republicans are trying to fight for. I just again am reminded of why they are continually losing public support....
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It appears that the majority of the newly elected republicans in the house have stated they will not vote to increase the debt ceiling no matter what. Many of them are on record as saying they want the government to default and shut down. A significant part of the GOP is not only acting crazy - they really are crazy.
 
imaplanner said:
It appears that the majority of the newly elected republicans in the house have stated they will not vote to increase the debt ceiling no matter what. Many of them are on record as saying they want the government to default and shut down. A significant part of the GOP is not only acting crazy - they really are crazy.
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Newt and his buddies pulled this bullshit back in '94/'95. Ask them how the '96 election went.

What did Einstein say about insanity???
 
CT Gov. Daniel Malloy announced 328 state worker layoffs yesterday, including 57 state troopers. This after the unions rejected a deal with concessions that would avoided layoffs. If no compromise is reached as many as 6500 state workers could lose their jobs. The Gov. is trying to close a 1.6 BILLION budget hole over the next two years.

Unbelievable times we're living in.
 
imaplanner said:
It appears that the majority of the newly elected republicans in the house have stated they will not vote to increase the debt ceiling no matter what. Many of them are on record as saying they want the government to default and shut down. A significant part of the GOP is not only acting crazy - they really are crazy.
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The problem is they have yet to realize that a default will have major ripples in interest rates effecting everyone from joe homeowner to cpsuraf credit card holder. A default on our debt will be catastrophic. But then again, your can't comprise with ideology. Go ask the many jihadest terrorist on that subject.
 
hilldweller said:
Resilience Capacity Index by Cal-Berkeley:

http://brr.berkeley.edu/rci/metro/index

My first thought was that this was a convoluted way of saying blue state= good, red state= bad (well, actually that was my second thought... my first thought was that these Berkeley researchers smoke entirely way too much pot):-o
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There are quite a few red state locales on the "high list", and vice versa. I agree with your first assessment, however. :lmao:
 
TexanOkie said:
There are quite a few red state locales on the "high list", and vice versa. I agree with your first assessment, however. :lmao:
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I guess I just concluded that from the low scores for TX and the south in general.. why such a grim outlook for TX (considering its recent performance in this recession/ bucking trends, etc.?
 
hilldweller said:
I guess I just concluded that from the low scores for TX and the south in general.. why such a grim outlook for TX (considering its recent performance in this recession/ bucking trends, etc.?
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Probably just because Texas has a horrid built environment. Politics plays a partial (but only a partial) role in that. Same with a lot of the south. I'm sure books have been written about this phenomena from a variety of angles - politics, culture, economics, race, history, you name it.
 
Glad to hear Giuliani talking sense...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/17/giuliani-to-gop-stay-out-of-gay-marriage/

"I think the Republican Party would be well advised to get the heck out of people's bedrooms and let these things get decided by states," Giuliani said Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union." "We'd be a much more successful political party if we stuck to our economic, conservative roots."
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Unfortunately, I don't know that he has any sway in the R party...but he seems to get the American public right now. Better than I can say for some R candidates...
 
JNA said:
What is up with these group pledges - what happened to thinking for yourself ?
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It's about money and trying to appeal to a certain block of voters. It's also a reaction to Obama. I'm a conservative just like all the rest. I adhere to the dogma whether I personally believe it or not.
 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59244.html

Seventy-one percent of Americans surveyed for a CBS News poll released Monday morning say they oppose how Republicans are handling negotiations, while just 21 percent approve. In contrast, 48 percent disapprove of the president’s role in the talks, while 43 percent approve.
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So now the line of we are doing what we were elected to do - the will of the people - is obviously off the table (with the people not agreeing with what they are doing in droves), will we see a deal done?

I am pretty sure everyone (except Michelle Bachmann and Sean Hannity, they know better) understands how bad a default would be, and the attempts made my Boehner and his underlings shows that establishment R's understand this risk. Let us hope that they can tell the Tea Parties to sit down, while the country moves forward.
 
Hink_Planner said:
I am pretty sure everyone (except Michelle Bachmann and Sean Hannity, they know better) understands how bad a default would be
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I'm not a fan of these two but you're misrepresenting their views. You're forgetting that sometimes the right choices have difficult results. If we only make choices that have good results then we'll never deal with the critical issues, no matter who we are.

If you don't want to punish your child because she might cry that's not good parenting even though it's easy. If you need a new TV you can't just raise your credit limit if you are maxed out, even if all the family members "vote" to buy a new TV. Those are simplistic comparisons but they do make sense. The right thing to do is sometimes painful for those involved.
 
stroskey said:
I'm not a fan of these two but you're misrepresenting their views. You're forgetting that sometimes the right choices have difficult results. If we only make choices that have good results then we'll never deal with the critical issues, no matter who we are.

.
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You are misrepresenting reality. If we default interest rates go up- including the payments on our debt. Plunging ourself back into a great recession will also drive up the debt. Hannity and Bachman probably just don't understand anything. There is absolutely nothing good or right about not raising the debt ceiling.
 
imaplanner said:
You are misrepresenting reality. If we default interest rates go up- including the payments on our debt. Plunging ourself back into a great recession will also drive up the debt. Hannity and Bachman probably just don't understand anything. There is absolutely nothing good or right about not raising the debt ceiling.
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I actually think Bachman knows exactly what she's doing. She probably knows there is no way the government will default, and the next bad thing that happens, she can point her finger and say "See? If you had listened to me and NOT raised the debt ceiling, we wouldn't be in this mess!"

Not really sure if it will be effective though...
 
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