• Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, the built environment, planning adjacent topics, and anything else that comes to mind. No ads, no spam, and it's free. It's easy to join!

NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

[OT]
Duke Of Dystopia said:
Its one of those things you shouldn't be to lazzy to write out all the way. :6:

That true TO?
Click to expand...

No, I wasn't calling you a socialist. I was saying your local socialist organization could probably use someone of your particular skill (fighting/arguing/demeaning, etc.) to further their aims.

It was not a slam or slander. Just an observation.

Also, I do not mean any ill will in the last few discussions. If/when we ever meet in person, I'm still buying you a beer and having a laugh at both of our expenses, Duke.

Cheers. :b:[/OT]
 
imaplanner said:
I am now convinced that a majority of Americans are complete idiots.
Click to expand...

I disagree - I think the majority of Americans are incomplete idiots. They haven't sunk as low as they will go in idiotcy. I've seen the future and it looks bleaker every day.
 
I think we will find something to rattle us around a bit - kind of like 9/11 did. Either it will be something that is positive - like a change in tax policy (come on fair tax), infrastructure investment (let's see some rail), etc. or negative - like more war (what is that north korea?), or attempting to constitutionally ban groups from living their lives (yea because gay marriage is so much worse than straight marriage:r:), or a tragic event at a large scale - I think our country will find something.

I honestly don't believe that we as a country are dumber or worse off than we were 20 years ago. I just think it is much easier to see it all now. Our media could use some help, but I think the American people are okay.

Everyone could be more involved, engaged, and responsible - but I will just take respectful. I think our country is going in the right direction. Once we deal with SS, Medicare/caid, and the Military Budget and all the other "untouchable" parts of our country, things will get better. We just need to get some politicians who have the guts to touch them.
 
Hink_Planner said:
...Once we deal with SS, Medicare/caid, and the Military Budget and all the other "untouchable" parts of our country, things will get better. We just need to get some politicians who have the guts to touch them.
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily think that having the guts to address things that are politically sensitive really matters much right now. Our government is currently so systematically dysfunctional, and many politicians are arrogantly proud of this fact, that an eagerness to address issues doesn't mean much. Personally, I think we need to start using our right to impeach to get the message across. Any politician who openly admits they will not get anything done simply because of party politics should be removed from position with all benefits revoked. We hired you by election to do a job. If you aren't willing to do it - which involves having grown up conversations and compromising - then you are fired. Period. Get off my tax dollars.

I don't care if you are R or D or whatever other affiliation you have. Do your job or find another one.
 
Hink_Planner said:
I Once we deal with SS, Medicare/caid, and the Military Budget and all the other "untouchable" parts of our country, things will get better. We just need to get some politicians who have the guts to touch them.
Click to expand...

Social security isnt really an issue. Its off-budget and has a 2.5 trillion dollar surplus. It has no effect on the US budget
 
Dandy Randy Paul [R/TP-KY], gets excoriated in this Newsweek column. "Where in the uterus the fetus of an illegal immigrant fits in is anyone's guess"!

Hang on, Kentucky, it's gonna be a wild ride.8-!
 
imaplanner said:
Social security isnt really an issue. Its off-budget and has a 2.5 trillion dollar surplus. It has no effect on the US budget
Click to expand...

Perhaps not for a few decades, but according to new CBO estimates, Social Security will be in the red starting this year and will not run a surplus again. Once its trust funds run out in the 2030s, then it will posit huge consideration in budgetary matters. The older estimates of SS running surpluses through 2016 before hitting red ink have proven faulty.

Story here: AP: Social Security posting $600B deficit over 10 years

CBO: Social Security to run permanent deficits
 
TexanOkie said:
Perhaps not for a few decades, but according to new CBO estimates, Social Security will be in the red starting this year and will not run a surplus again. Once its trust funds run out in the 2030s, then it will posit huge consideration in budgetary matters. The older estimates of SS running surpluses through 2016 before hitting red ink have proven faulty.

Story here: AP: Social Security posting $600B deficit over 10 years

CBO: Social Security to run permanent deficits
Click to expand...

My understanding is its fully dunded until 2037. At that point if nothing changes it would still be able to pay out 70 percent of defined benefits.

But the biggest point I was making is that its off budget. It has no bearing on government spending

Gedunker said:
Dandy Randy Paul [R/TP-KY], gets excoriated in this Newsweek column. "Where in the uterus the fetus of an illegal immigrant fits in is anyone's guess"!

Hang on, Kentucky, it's gonna be a wild ride.8-!
Click to expand...

Dandy randy also submitted a proposed budget that almost completely eliminates the Department of Education. I'm going to assume he's also cool with the GOP plan to redefine rape

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2011_01/027742.php
 
imaplanner said:
My understanding is its fully dunded until 2037. At that point if nothing changes it would still be able to pay out 70 percent of defined benefits.

But the biggest point I was making is that its off budget. It has no bearing on government spending
Click to expand...

You're correct, but it does potentially have an effect on the budget in one way - because SS is no longer running a surplus, we don't have an easy source to borrow from. The entire trust fund is held in treasuries (as is the Medicare trust fund), so as that shrinks, more of our debt is actually held by the public or foreigners, which could have an effect on the budget (by potentially increasing interest rates or introducing other problems) or introduce more outside concerns.

The fact that a huge amount of our current debt is not really debt, but just money that one arm of the government owes to another arm of the government (in other words, just tricky accounting) is a big advantage that will erode over time.
 
Civil Unions just passed the Hawaii State Senate! Now onto the House of Reps and Gov. Abercrombie's desk for signing!

:8: :8: Brown Chicken. Brown Cow. :8: :8:
 
Sweet

TerraSapient said:
Civil Unions just passed the Hawaii State Senate! Now onto the House of Reps and Gov. Abercrombie's desk for signing!

:8: :8: Brown Chicken. Brown Cow. :8: :8:
Click to expand...

I'm sure I'll get an all expenses paid trip to attend the wedding right??:-x:D
 
Make that two Mormon's who are looking for the R nomination...

Jon Huntsman set to run
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/48454.html

Interesting. Do you think people on the right have moved past the trouble they had with Mitt Romney's religion, last time around?

Anyone know anything about Huntsman other than he can speak fluent Mandarin? I think it is good that he would have strong ties to China and the other Eastern Allies. He is middle of the road socially (he agrees with civil unions, but doesn't support a woman's choice), has been a strong fiscal conservative (supposedly he did a great job with Utah when he was Governor...Ursus?), and is environmentally supportive.

Other than the religious troubles he might see for being Mormon, he seems to be yet another viable option on the right. He will see much more support from the establishment and from the independents than someone like Bachmann or Palin.

*sigh*...I still wish Bloomberg would run....*sigh*
 
Hink_Planner said:
Jon Huntsman set to run
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/48454.html

Other than the religious troubles he might see for being Mormon, he seems to be yet another viable option on the right. He will see much more support from the establishment and from the independents than someone like Bachmann or Palin.

*
Click to expand...

You know, Huntsman was a decent governer. Like most mormons, he is pretty moderate. Fiscally conservative but more socially progressive - no that's wrong - tolerant and un-offending than you would expect.

His religion will be an issue. Any mormon's religion will be an issue. People generally are aware of mormons, but not overly familiar with practices or beliefs. Plenty of higher-profile types have made it generally clear that mormons are not necessarily odd or incredibly zealous.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

When I first read this, my mind said "morons", instead of "mormons". :D
 
btrage said:
When I first read this, my mind said "morons", instead of "mormons". :D
Click to expand...

Best laugh I have had all day re-reading it with that in mind! "like most morons..." It actually reads pretty well that way....!!
 
The mormon thing is going to be interesting. My feeling is that the majority of GOP voters are not yet willing to support for President anyone who isn't a white christian. Maybe I am wrong.
 
ursus said:
..... Plenty of higher-profile types have made it generally clear that mormons are not necessarily odd or incredibly zealous.
Click to expand...

Maybe in Utah, everywhere else they run in pairs dressed in suits passing out copies of "Lighthouse"! :D

The mormon church, uwhoops, Church of Later Day Saints.. also was a major funder of the pro Prop 8 in California.

I think the question of zealous is still up in the air.:p

They are very polite when they show up to proselytize on your doorstep. Also, they are very fun to talk to. They do not know the history of Christianity an better than the equally unschooled jahova's witnesses.

I like talking to them, but they never seem to come back.... :a:
 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/48560.html

And another one bits the dust. Her mother and now Barbara Bush supports gay marriage...

Bush's mother, former first lady Laura Bush, has also said she supports gay marriage. In an interview last year, Bush described acceptance of same-sex marriage as "a generational thing" that "will come."
Click to expand...

How long do you think it will take for the Republican party to realize that if they start getting in the 21st century on social issues, they would win more often. That if they moderate on social issues, but keep their conservative financial focus, they might win the white house?

I hope that we keep seeing more Republicans become socially moderate and focus their conservatism on financial issues. Really that is what the R party should be aligned with. Not the fanatical church organizations.

At least the Tea Party doesn't focus on social issues... does that mean the R party is ready to grow up?
 
imaplanner said:
The mormon thing is going to be interesting. My feeling is that the majority of GOP voters are not yet willing to support for President anyone who isn't a white christian. Maybe I am wrong.
Click to expand...

Well isn't Glenn Beck a mormon and people are following him blindly...just sayin'
 
There was a near identical religious thing in the couple of years leading up to the election of Kennedy in 1960 - a candidate who just happened to be a *GASP* Catholic!

:-o

Mike
 
For the younger set, Mitt Romney's father George, was governor of Michigan back in the 60's and made a run at the presidency. Although everyone knew that he was a Mormon, it was his lack of campaign ability that hurt him the most, not his religion.
 
ofos said:
For the younger set, Mitt Romney's father George, was governor of Michigan back in the 60's and made a run at the presidency. Although everyone knew that he was a Mormon, it was his lack of campaign ability that hurt him the most, not his religion.
Click to expand...

As we have become more accepting of other races, it seems we (Americans) have started to focus our negativity on other religions. I think whereas the mormon religion wasnt an issue 40 or 50 years ago, it would be now.
 
I think Huntsman's biggest liability in a Republican primary is the fact that he voluntarily worked with the Obama administration. It's not like he's quitting his post out of protest; he's quitting on ostensibly good terms to run against his former boss. It will be interesting to see how he maneuvers this one. If he engages in the typical anti-Obama polemicism, won't he come off as completely disingenuous? It seems like that might work against his primary appeal: being a national politician that isn't completely full of shit.

Then again, Romney is basically running against his own health care ideas and he's still near the top of most primary polls. And if cynicism was enough to disqualify someone for politics, Washington D.C. would be a ghost town right now. Either way, Huntsman faces some pretty big hurdles in maintaining his so-called moderate appeal and surviving the gauntlet of ideologue-dominated Republican caucuses and primaries.
 
kalimotxo said:
I think Huntsman's biggest liability in a Republican primary is the fact that he voluntarily worked with the Obama administration. It's not like he's quitting his post out of protest; he's quitting on ostensibly good terms to run against his former boss. It will be interesting to see how he maneuvers this one. If he engages in the typical anti-Obama polemicism, won't he come off as completely disingenuous? It seems like that might work against his primary appeal: being a national politician that isn't completely full of shit.

Then again, Romney is basically running against his own health care ideas and he's still near the top of most primary polls. And if cynicism was enough to disqualify someone for politics, Washington D.C. would be a ghost town right now. Either way, Huntsman faces some pretty big hurdles in maintaining his so-called moderate appeal and surviving the gauntlet of ideologue-dominated Republican caucuses and primaries.
Click to expand...


I agree the Primary process makes you skew right or left - just ask John McCain... what Maverick? :r:

I would like to believe that there are enough independents that went R that it might not play out that way... but I should know better.
 
imaplanner said:
As we have become more accepting of other races, it seems we (Americans) have started to focus our negativity on other religions. I think whereas the mormon religion wasnt an issue 40 or 50 years ago, it would be now.
Click to expand...

That is the doing of the evangelicals. When the R's openly recruited the evangelicals, the result is a religious litimus test for the candidates. It's also driving the stand on some moral issues, abortion, etc. Oddly, it leaves out stands regarding greed, the love of money, etc. One of these days, the evangelicals are going to realize they have been played and the R's are going to be sol.
 
Geez... speak of the devil...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/01/illinois.civil.unions/index.html?hpt=Sbin

This is what makes me sick. There are people like this on earth...

Illinois Family Institute, a non-profit group that says it wants to reaffirm marriage in the state, called the law "divisive."

"Gov. Quinn should reject this anti-family bill and reject the efforts of the homosexual lobby to impose this highly contentious and controversial policy on the people of Illinois," said David E. Smith, executive director of the group.
Click to expand...

After June you can get a civil union in Illinois... make that California, Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon, and Washington as well as D.C.

6 / 50 = 12% of our country. I would guess more than 12% of our country is gay. We still need some work, but at least we are progressing as a country.
 
If South Carolina and Louisiana, two of the deepest Southern states with a long and ugly history of racism, can elect non-white Republicans to statewide offices, I doubt your statement is accurate.

Charleston, the heart of the former Confederacy, just elected a black Republican congressman who defeated Strom Thurmond's son in the primary....


imaplanner said:
The mormon thing is going to be interesting. My feeling is that the majority of GOP voters are not yet willing to support for President anyone who isn't a white christian. Maybe I am wrong.
Click to expand...
 
Whose Yur Planner said:
That is the doing of the evangelicals. When the R's openly recruited the evangelicals, the result is a religious litimus test for the candidates. It's also driving the stand on some moral issues, abortion, etc. Oddly, it leaves out stands regarding greed, the love of money, ........
Click to expand...

sound science policy, basic education for everyone, health care, all 10 commandments, everything taught in the New Testament....
 
PennPlanner said:
If South Carolina and Louisiana, two of the deepest Southern states with a long and ugly history of racism, can elect non-white Republicans to statewide offices, I doubt your statement is accurate.
Click to expand...
The race issue probably isn't much of an issue for Indian-American's in the South. Especially when they are constantly going on about their conversion to Christianity and have names like Bobby and Nicki.

Charleston, the heart of the former Confederacy, just elected a black Republican congressman who defeated Strom Thurmond's son in the primary....
Click to expand...
Considering that Charleston County is full of both African Americans and Republicans I wouldn't be too surprised. Race is really a non-issue as long as the candidate can prove that he or she hates liberalism as much as they love Jesus.

Which brings me to Romney. His biggest issue is going to making it past the primaries. Being the middle-of-the-road former Governor of Massachusetts is not going to win him the votes of the Tea Party types - Just witness the new found hatred of Senator Too-Hotty-Scotty Brown as proof that there is no room for independent thought in the current Republican party. However, should Romney get the nomination, don't think that evangelical Protestants won't vote for a Morman when the alternative is a Kenyan/Muslim/Socialist/fascist usurper.
 
imaplanner said:
The mormon thing is going to be interesting. My feeling is that the majority of GOP voters are not yet willing to support for President anyone who isn't a white christian. Maybe I am wrong.
Click to expand...

Who is more white and Christian than Mormons? Sure they are not necessarily your mainstream Christian, but they are so white.

Even the polygamous Mormons aren't that far off the pale. ;) Good Christians like Newt Gingrich, Ronald Reagan, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh had multiple wives - just not all at the same time. :D
 
otterpop said:
Who is more white and Christian than Mormons? Sure they are not necessarily your mainstream Christian, but they are so white.
Click to expand...

"whiteness" notwithstanding, I think imaplanner is right; it will be an issue for many. Many, many people don't consider Mormons to be Christians. I don't get that, but they don't.
 
ursus said:
"whiteness" notwithstanding, I think imaplanner is right; it will be an issue for many. Many, many people don't consider Mormons to be Christians. I don't get that, but they don't.
Click to expand...

Basic theology. It boils down to what you think Christ's role is in salvation and who you think He is. Fair warning-I am an evangelical Christian (Southern Baptist) and will present that view.
 
[OT]I was youtubing earlier for some background noise [AWB: Pick Up the Pieces live at Montreux, 1977 -- it's TOFB's fault!] and the suggested video was "...and I'm a Mormon". It appears to be some sort of LDS campaign to humanize Mormonism. I did notice there are competing voices, including one titled "...I'm an Ex-Mormon" and another "I'm a rock ... and I'm Mormon". Didn't have time to look at it beyond that, though.[/OT]

Personally, I couldn't give one whit what a person's religion is. Can he/she lead? Is he/she honest? Do I agree with many of this person's ideas? So, yeah, I'd have no problem voting for a Mormon. I apparently already voted for an Islamist.;):a:
 
PennPlanner said:
If South Carolina and Louisiana, two of the deepest Southern states with a long and ugly history of racism, can elect non-white Republicans to statewide offices, I doubt your statement is accurate.

Charleston, the heart of the former Confederacy, just elected a black Republican congressman who defeated Strom Thurmond's son in the primary....
Click to expand...

My statement was more speculation. You have a point. But statewide office and the presidency are two different animals. Maybe I am wrong.
 
Excuses, excuses.

In the Maryland senate election back in 2006 when Michael Steele was the Republican candidate, he won every single Republican county, including the heavily conservative, heavily white, redneck/hunting/fishing/shooting, economically depressed western Maryland counties. He also won all the Eastern Shore counties. He won the usual exurban, heavily white counties outside the inner ring of the Baltimore suburbs.

I won't claim all Republicans are color blind these days (nor do I claim all Democrats are color blind). The party is only inhibited by the small number of black Republicans and the even tinier pool of black Republican politicians. Republicans have successfully fielded Hispanic candidates in the southwest and Florida.

biscuit said:
The race issue probably isn't much of an issue for Indian-American's in the South. Especially when they are constantly going on about their conversion to Christianity and have names like Bobby and Nicki.


Considering that Charleston County is full of both African Americans and Republicans I wouldn't be too surprised. Race is really a non-issue as long as the candidate can prove that he or she hates liberalism as much as they love Jesus.

Which brings me to Romney. His biggest issue is going to making it past the primaries. Being the middle-of-the-road former Governor of Massachusetts is not going to win him the votes of the Tea Party types - Just witness the new found hatred of Senator Too-Hotty-Scotty Brown as proof that there is no room for independent thought in the current Republican party. However, should Romney get the nomination, don't think that evangelical Protestants won't vote for a Morman when the alternative is a Kenyan/Muslim/Socialist/fascist usurper.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are wrong.

If a deep south state can elect two non-whites to the governorships, one can safely assume states with a less racist heritage would be even more receptive.

imaplanner said:
My statement was more speculation. You have a point. But statewide office and the presidency are two different animals. Maybe I am wrong.
Click to expand...
 
Back
Top