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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

imaplanner said:
In the states that have implemented tort reform - its been shown to do zero for lowering costs
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Obviously you didn't read my post. It doesn't do zero... it does little. Which I stated. My argument is that it allows smart people to want to go into the medical field. Why should a talented, smart person go into the medical field when they have to risk their livelihood every second of every day to save people who probably can't be saved? There is strong correlation between Tort Reform and the Doctor shortage.

Duke Of Dystopia said:
What you don't seem to understand, is that it is not that easy to sue. If you don't win, you are liable for all costs. On top of that, harm is pretty cut and dried.
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Unfortunately, I do understand how this works. And no, you are not always liable for costs. A doctor who is sued, might win, but two things happen. Firstly, they cannot work while they are in court. This means they don't get paid for work they could otherwise be doing. Also, even if they win, they pay for their defense. And even if they do win, which most the time they do (because most suits are frivolous) they still have their name attached to a lawsuit, which hurts their future job prospects and insurance costs.

Duke Of Dystopia said:
Tell me, what is the price of the following really worth?:

A persons life
A family member
Lifetime earning potential when not artificially handicapped.
Cost to you of a lifetime of taking care of a newborn infant harmed by drugs?
Does it happen on the 1st time a crapy dr. screws up? or after the 15th?
Once a limit is set, can the crapy dr. just buy his way out of the repercussions (cause the cost to him will be to low for him to care about)?

This list is endless. Seriously, why do you feel qualified to put limits on other peoples right to seek proper settlement? Remember now good folks, since you are putting the case before a panel of your peers at trial, limiting their judgment is an arbitrary limit on "the market of worth". Which, as our Teabagger friends with torches and pitchforks on high would tell you, the "Gubment" should stay out of.
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If doctors had the ability to choose their patients, then I could maybe agree with you. With EMTALA the government makes seeing patients a requirement. What this means is that a doctor must see a patient that is probably going to die anyways. Maybe they will save their lives, maybe they won't. I agree with you, if you agree that doctors should be able to see who they give care to. If you can't agree to that, then doctors should have some liability protection that is equal to the risk they take by working on patients that are probably going to die.

A person's life is invaluable. I don't think anyone can argue with that. What I have a problem with is someone who thinks that because a doctor didn't save someones life, or *gasp* made a mistake at some point, that they should be able to sue for whatever they see fit. You go to a doctor you should not be expecting perfection. Unfortunately we as humans are not capable of that. If you want to take the risk, it is your choice. Do you want to risk it with this doctor, who may or may not save you? That risk should be on the patient, not the doctor. Duke, unfortunately, you obviously have no experience from the medical side, and can only see this as a political maneuver, but for many doctors, it affects their ability to practice medicine better.
 
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Civil Unrest

This Bear is tired of the continual negative campaigns that are so freakin' prevalent in this mid-term election. Both sides are filling the airwaves with outright lies, half-truths, and blame-blame-blame.

:-@

STFU.

Bear
 
Bear Up North said:
This Bear is tired of the continual negative campaigns that are so freakin' prevalent in this mid-term election. Both sides are filling the airwaves with outright lies, half-truths, and blame-blame-blame.

:-@

STFU.

Bear
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It is only going to get worse. With the flood gates now open for corporate cash, it will be more about who can say the worst thing about the other. Sadly, this is what we consider democracy... :-c
 
Bear Up North said:
This Bear is tired of the continual negative campaigns that are so freakin' prevalent in this mid-term election. Both sides are filling the airwaves with outright lies, half-truths, and blame-blame-blame.

:-@

STFU.

Bear
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I'm right there with you. My wife went on a 15 minute non-stop rant about this just last night. And we don't even have a lot of big mid-term elections here.

I've posted it before, but its worth repeating:

"A lie gets halfway around the world before Truth even gets its boots on" - Samuel Clemens.

So (depressingly) true...
 
Hink_Planner said:
It is only going to get worse. With the flood gates now open for corporate cash, it will be more about who can say the worst thing about the other. Sadly, this is what we consider democracy... :-c
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Supposeldy the republican campaigns have been inhected with like 6 times the amount of corporate cash that is being injected into democratci campaigns - most of it unlimited and undocumented thanks to Citizens United. There is no more democracy. On the bright side- eventually there will only be one party - the corporate party, and so maybe we wont have to deal with negative campaigns for too long.
 
imaplanner said:
There is no more democracy.
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I don't think there ever was. There some democratic principles, perhaps. But our government, from the outset, has been more of a polyarchy in republican form than democracy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you read Robert A. Dahl's writings on the matter. It's certainly not the end of civilization, compassionate political discourse, or democratic principles. In fact, a lot of times Dahl argues that it's as close as humans can get to democratic ideals in our current stage in evolution.
 
Hink_Planner said:
It is only going to get worse. With the flood gates now open for corporate cash, it will be more about who can say the worst thing about the other. Sadly, this is what we consider democracy... :-c
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We need as a County to have a serious discussion about the roles of both the corporations and the media-in all it's forms. Granted, the County was founded as a commercial venture and that has always been a driving force here. However, we are no longer a County of farmers, shop keepers and small businesses. Equating multi-national corporations with small business owners doesn't work.

With the media, we have gone from informing the citizens to throwing gas on raging fires. Granted, the media in the County has rarely been objective and gotten us into wars in the past (The Spanish-American War to name one). But it's disintergrating into shouting matches that only serve to increase profits. We need to take a step back.
 
Whose Yur Planner said:
We need to take a step back.
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I think this is the sentiment of some of the Tea Party. Unfortunately, they are loonies and cannot articulate this (ignoring the bigots and village idiots in the mix).

I believe that the middle will rise again, and hopefully whoever that leader is will bring about some reform in how we deal with the future of government. Instead of trying to state how the Constitution deals with issues it never could have even come close to dealing with, we will look to create new legislation, or amendments that can deal with our current situation. Fox & MSNBC are not going away anytime soon. Fox has 4 of the future R candidates for President on their bankroll for God's sake.

We need to take a step back and try and re-evaluate what our country is about - and what is best for it going forward. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen for a while. We haven't hit rock bottom yet politically.
 
TexanOkie said:
I don't think there ever was. There some democratic principles, perhaps. But our government, from the outset, has been more of a polyarchy in republican form than democracy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you read Robert A. Dahl's writings on the matter. It's certainly not the end of civilization, compassionate political discourse, or democratic principles. In fact, a lot of times Dahl argues that it's as close as humans can get to democratic ideals in our current stage in evolution.
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By Dahl's own admission, Polyarchy IS a form of democracy. He first coined the term in his book from the 1950's "A Preface to Democratic Theory" He later more specifically refined these concepts in 1989's "Democracy and its Critics" While he says that limitations on the full participation of the citizenry in the political process (by, say, not letting Puerto Ricans or those living in other territories from voting for a voting member of congress) can impede a polyarchy's ability to become a full democracy, he definitely calls Polyarchy democratic form of government. Not the only way to do it or even the best for all circumstances he would say, but still a form of democracy.
 
Sorry, but the blast of negative campaigning is getting to me and it's only late September. I need to rant.

In an odd way, I find it amusing how the tea party supported candidate for NY governor said he'd use Eminent Domain to block the Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero.

[cartoon bubble above paladino's head] I'm utterly and completely opposed to big government, except when it can buy me votes.[/cartoon bubble]

Dandy Randy Paul is spouting off about how "government is the servant, not the master" and he's going to eliminate various federal bureaucracy in the name of personal freedom. Perhaps he'll start with the civil rights division of DOJ since he apparently opposes the ADA, among other civil rights laws. He, personally, would never discriminate against someone because of race, disability or so forth. Of course.

That my family had the good fortune to leave Nevada (where we were pioneers, no less!) is something I'm eternally grateful for since senatorial candidate Sharron Angle has opposed mandatory insurance coverage for autism spectrum disorders among other mandatory coverages. Turn right for the stone age, y'all.

If the right and tea partiers are so offended at the liberal elite, witness the president's Harvard degree and Elena Kagan's Ivy experience to name just two, why is O'Donnell lying about her academic record? Fairleigh Dickinson? Um, no. Oxford? Ha, hardly. Princeton? Never heard of her.

Okay, I feel a little better. Rant over.
 
Gedunker said:
Sorry, but the blast of negative campaigning is getting to me and it's only late September. I need to rant.

In an odd way, I find it amusing how the tea party supported candidate for NY governor said he'd use Eminent Domain to block the Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero.

[cartoon bubble above paladino's head] I'm utterly and completely opposed to big government, except when it can buy me votes.[/cartoon bubble]

Dandy Randy Paul is spouting off about how "government is the servant, not the master" and he's going to eliminate various federal bureaucracy in the name of personal freedom. Perhaps he'll start with the civil rights division of DOJ since he apparently opposes the ADA, among other civil rights laws. He, personally, would never discriminate against someone because of race, disability or so forth. Of course.

That my family had the good fortune to leave Nevada (where we were pioneers, no less!) is something I'm eternally grateful for since senatorial candidate Sharron Angle has opposed mandatory insurance coverage for autism spectrum disorders among other mandatory coverages. Turn right for the stone age, y'all.

If the right and tea partiers are so offended at the liberal elite, witness the president's Harvard degree and Elena Kagan's Ivy experience to name just two, why is O'Donnell lying about her academic record? Fairleigh Dickinson? Um, no. Oxford? Ha, hardly. Princeton? Never heard of her.

Okay, I feel a little better. Rant over.
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What Gedunker said.

Our mid-terms are surprisingly mild this year in NM, though of course one cannot escape the national news very easily. Our Gubernatorial race is a pretty big mess, though. I find the Republican candidate to be combative, angry and more than a little scary - focusing almost exclusively on border security issues and offering little to no positions on anything else. As one of the poorest states in the union, we have a lot to deal with beyond border issues. The Democratic candidate (now Lieutenant Governor) lacks that elusive quality of zazz, charisma or even palpable enthusiasm (though she knows what she is talking about) and I fear she will be trounced as a result.
 
I'm with those who are tired of the negative campaign ads. I watch Wheel of Fortune at 6:30pm every day, and pretty much every commercial since the start of September has been a political ad, and I know it's only going to get worse as we enter October. Illinois has a lot of things that are up for grabs and likely to go Republican including three competitive suburban Congressional races currently held by D's (8th, 11th, 14th), Obama's old Senate seat, and the governorship recently held by Blago. The Democrats have been ruthless with the negative campaigning (at least that's what I've seen the most of in this timeslot). Most of the Republican ads I've seen have been mostly positive ads, with the exception of the tight Senate race, where punches have been thrown on either side. At least some of the Republican ads are kind of humorous, comparing Giannoulias to Tony Soprano.

I think negative campaigning is silly and usually doesn't work, primarily because the ads highlight the opponent. Regardless of what the ad is saying, it usually mentions the opponent's name A LOT. And come Nov. 2, that's all that a lot of people will remember...who's name was said the most.
 
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illinoisplanner said:
I'm with those who are tired of the negative campaign ads. I watch Wheel of Fortune at 6:30pm every day, and pretty much every commercial since the start of September has been a political ad, and I know it's only going to get worse as we enter October. Illinois has a lot of things that are up for grabs and likely to go Republican including three competitive suburban Congressional races currently held by D's (8th, 11th, 14th), Obama's old Senate seat, and the governorship recently held by Blago. The Democrats have been ruthless with the negative campaigning (at least that's what I've seen the most of in this timeslot). Most of the Republican ads I've seen have been mostly positive ads, with the exception of the tight Senate race, where punches have been thrown on either side. At least some of the Republican ads are kind of humorous, comparing Giannoulias to Tony Soprano.

I think negative campaigning is silly and usually doesn't work, primarily because the ads highlight the opponent. Regardless of what the ad is saying, it usually mentions the opponent's name A LOT. And come Nov. 2, that's all that a lot of people will remember...who's name was said the most.
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I like how Ron Johnson (R-Oshkosh) came right out of the box after the recent partisan primaries here in Wisconsin with a sort of 'preemptive strike' against incumbent USSenator Russ Feingold (D-Middleton) - his first radio ad the day after the primary was to counter what his campaign believed was to be Feingold's first negative attack (Johnson referring to Social Security as a giant Ponzi scheme - "Yes, I did say that, and it's true" - followed a few sentences later with "...and the money is gone"). His has been a mostly positive campaign, too, while the Feingold campaign has been mostly hard negative. Right now, Johnson is maintaining an 8-10 point lead in statewide polls.

I addition to Feingold's USSenate seat, I am expecting two and perhaps three of Wisconsin's eight USHouse seats to flip from 'D' to 'R' - Incumbent Steve Kagen's (D-Appleton) seat will go to Republican Reid Ribble (R-Kaukauna) and longtime Democrat USHouse Rep. David Obey's seat (Obey is retiring) will go to Sean Duffy (R-Ashland). The third seat (it's on the bubble and could go either way) is currently held by Ron Kind (D-La Crosse).
The party balance is now 3-R/5-D.

I am also expecting the state's governorship (hugely unpopular incumbent Democrat James Doyle - his approval numbers are even lower than BHO's - is retiring) to go to Republican Scott Walker (currently the very popular with conservatives and viciously reviled by liberals County Executive of Milwaukee County). Democrat Tom Barrett (currently Mayor of the City of Milwaukee and a former USHouse Rep.) is running an almost invisible campaign and is looked upon by many as almost a 'Doyle's third term'.

Both houses of the Wisconsin state legislature will easily flip from majority 'D' to majority 'R', too. Look for a strong push for Wisconsin to require voters to show valid government-issued IDs at the polls (a hugely popular idea among voters statewide) and to make Wisconsin the 49th state to allow concealed-carry with permit for firearms (leaving Illinois as the only remaining holdout), among many other lingering popular issues that were continually blocked by the Democrats, within the first couple of months of next year. The state is also facing a budget deficit that is more than twice as bad, per capita, as Illinois' and even worse than that of California and the Democrat's inaction on and gross mismanagement of the state's budget is one of the biggest statewide issues.

Mike
 
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mgk920 said:
Both houses of the Wisconsin state legislature will easily flip from majority 'D' to majority 'R', too. Look for a strong push...[SNIP]...to make Wisconsin the 49th state to allow concealed-carry with permit for firearms (leaving Illinois as the only remaining holdout), among many other lingering popular issues that were continually blocked by the Democrats, within the first couple of months of next year.
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It could be a race between IL & WI to see who allows concealed-carry first. There's been talk that the Illinois State House could be taken over by Republicans, unseating the very powerful Chicago liberal Democrat House Spearker, Mike Madigan (who is very anti-gun), and it's almost a sure thing that conservative down-stater Bill Brady (who is very pro-gun) will be Governor.
 
illinoisplanner said:
It could be a race between IL & WI to see who allows concealed-carry first. There's been talk that the Illinois State House could be taken over by Republicans, unseating the very powerful Chicago liberal Democrat House Spearker, Mike Madigan (who is very anti-gun), and it's almost a sure thing that conservative down-stater Bill Brady (who is very pro-gun) will be Governor.
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Add that incident that I mentioned in the 'Random Thoughts' thread earlier today and there really is no telling how fast the two states will fall in line on that.

Mike
 
Oh, spare me.. IP...... Republicans run "positive Ads" ???? Remember the swift boat veterans? Your bias is showing.
 
Marine Corps Planner said:
Oh, spare me.. IP...... Republicans run "positive Ads" ???? Remember the swift boat veterans? Your bias is showing.
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Maybe you should take a reading class...

illinoisplanner said:
The Democrats have been ruthless with the negative campaigning (at least that's what I've seen the most of in this timeslot). Most of the Republican ads I've seen have been mostly positive ads...
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Do you live in Illinois? Do you watch the political ads from 6:30-7:00pm every day on WLS-TV? Because that's what I'm talking about here...the 2010 midterm elections in Illinois. And based on that (and that only). Is that clearer for you now?
 
Marine Corps Planner said:
Oh, spare me.. IP...... Republicans run "positive Ads" ???? Remember the swift boat veterans? Your bias is showing.
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And yours isn't?

Anyone who has been hanging around here in Cyburbialand for more than a few weeks knows that EVERYONE in here speaks with a bias, on both partisan political and planning theory levels, and the regulars in here pretty much know what angles the other regulars are normally writing from.

Healthy interaction in a pvblic forvm does not involve attempts to shut up those with whom you disagree simply because you disagree with them.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
And yours isn't?

Anyone who has been hanging around here in Cyburbialand for more than a few weeks knows that EVERYONE in here speaks with a bias, on both partisan political and planning theory levels, and the regulars in here pretty much know what angles the other regulars are normally writing from.

Healthy interaction in a pvblic forvm does not involve attempts to shut up those with whom you disagree simply because you disagree with them.

Mike
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I'm not going to put a MOD hat on, but the reply by Marine Corps Planner didn't try to silence anyone's opinion, and while MCP may not have many posts, they've been a member here for quite some time and presumably understand where folks are coming from. I'd suggest the point has been made --you and ip disagree with MCP about political advertisements. Now, move it along and carry on.
 
This is a word for word post from someone reading a CNN article about Rahm resigning as chief of staff...

Actually the chief of staff is nothing more than Obama's puppet and fellow muslim buddy...time for the change and the needed change is the top 'dog' himself....he's neither a citizen of this fine country or considered an up-standing person...he's leading us to destruction intentionally. His loyalty is with his muslim buddies in Africa and wherever they're all located all over this world. So November 2012 let's VOTE this 'person' out of office and out of this country.

Do people really think like this? Or are they just more likely to speak (type) this way because of anonymity? Can my right-leaning buddies who oppose Obama on fact-based matters explain where this comes from? I understand if you don't like Obama because of the health care stuff, or because jobs aren't coming back quickly enough, but this kind of expression makes me sad. I also realize people did similar things when GWB was in office, but there's something deeper to the hate-filled expressions people have towards Obama. Like when the person called him an Arab at a McCain rally in 2008. There's some underlying issue that's driving this. Is it racism? Just plain anger at the Great Recession? The decline of civility?

Personally, I think it's a racial thing. I honestly believe the USA is nowhere near being done with our racial issues. I think it's just more in the closet than it was 40 years ago. But I could be convinced otherwise.
 
My thoughts on Rahm mainly relate to how much the City of Chicago will deserve him if he comes its mayor.

Oh yea, and it will also be most interesting to see what happens if the Illinois state courts declare him to not be legally domiciled in Chicago and thus ineligible to run for mayor (from the chatter that I am hearing, under Illinois state law he established his domicile in Washington, DC over a year ago and is no longer a city resident).

This is gonna be FUN to watch!

:b::D:b:

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
My thoughts on Rahm mainly relate to how much the City of Chicago will deserve him if he comes its mayor.

Oh yea, and it will also be most interesting to see what happens if the Illinois state courts declare him to not be legally domiciled in Chicago and thus ineligible to run for mayor (from the chatter that I am hearing, under Illinois state law he established his domicile in Washington, DC over a year ago and is no longer a city resident).

This is gonna be FUN to watch!

:b::D:b:

Mike
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I would say I feel sorry for Chicago if he wins, but I really don't care. I am however glad to see him out of the white house.
 
btrage said:
Personally, I think it's a racial thing. I honestly believe the USA is nowhere near being done with our racial issues. I think it's just more in the closet than it was 40 years ago. But I could be convinced otherwise.
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For the substantiveless types of generalized anger you quoted, I am definitely in agreement about racism fueling these feelings. I think for some people, they just can't stand the idea that a Black Man is in charge. Its sounds so pathetic to say it out loud, but there are a lot of people who are very wedded to the existing social order and this turns all of that on its head, perhaps creating that sense that the world is in a death spiral. I mean, to have someone like THAT in office?!

But with political correctness being what it is these days, its hard to get away with criticizing one's ethnicity. Better to use code words like Communist, Socialist, Mau Mau, Islamist and Trans-global Conspirator. I say all of this as one who has relatives speaking and thinking this way. So disappointing...

I like to tell people that while Obama might be the first Black President, he is also yet another White President. :D
 
wahday said:
I like to tell people that while Obama might be the first Black President, he is also yet another White President. :D
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I shutter to think of what the world will be like with the first gay president. I imagine that this won't happen when we still think of gay's as second class (as it took 50 years from when we realized African Americans were just the same as white Americans :r: to get a Black President), but even in 50 years when people don't care what your sexual preference is, there will still be idiots.

I would imagine just like now how some people believe that because Obama is black it will influence his policy decisions, I am sure that would make religious righters crazy with a gay president and his/her policy making. :-{
 
wahday said:
For the substantiveless types of generalized anger you quoted, I am definitely in agreement about racism fueling these feelings. I think for some people, they just can't stand the idea that a Black Man is in charge. Its sounds so pathetic to say it out loud, but there are a lot of people who are very wedded to the existing social order and this turns all of that on its head, perhaps creating that sense that the world is in a death spiral. I mean, to have someone like THAT in office?!

But with political correctness being what it is these days, its hard to get away with criticizing one's ethnicity. Better to use code words like Communist, Socialist, Mau Mau, Islamist and Trans-global Conspirator. I say all of this as one who has relatives speaking and thinking this way. So disappointing...

I like to tell people that while Obama might be the first Black President, he is also yet another White President. :D
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And I'll sometimes also make the point that we still have yet to have a president with USA slave blood in his/her ancestry - the 'black' side of BHO's family (his father) was a first-generation immigrant from Kenya who has since returned to the 'old' country while his 'white' side (mother) is multi-generational USA citizens, including some slave ownership in its deep branches.

8-!

Yea, I know that it's likely not quite proper to bring such things up in 'polite' PC company....

:p

Mike
 
Ad link time!

I'll start it with an ad by Sean Duffy (R-Ashland, WI), who is running for the vacant USHouse seat from central and northern Wisconsin (WI-7) that was held by the retiring Democrat Dave Obey. This is one of the best political ads that I have seen in a long while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SadnrJbDdbE

Enjoy!

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
I'll start it with an ad by Sean Duffy (R-Ashland, WI), who is running for the vacant USHouse seat from central and northern Wisconsin (WI-7) that was held by the retiring Democrat Dave Obey. This is one of the best political ads that I have seen in a long while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SadnrJbDdbE

Enjoy!

Mike
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I was hoping he would have a Real World ad, maybe with Elka. I always thought she was hot. Ahh well, at least he had some humor and didn't go crazy evil like so many people are now. Good for him.
 
Mein Kandidate

Interesting development here in NW Ohio. Ohio's 9th Congessional District has been occupied by Marcy Kaptur. She is the longest-serving woman in the House and 30th in seniority in Congress. She is usually elected by a landslide.

Enter Rich Iott. His family (and Mr. Iott) were the owners of what was NW Ohio and SE Michigan's largest purveyor of groceries, Foodtown (Seaway Foodtown). Their grocery stores and large distribution centers employed thousands. Mr. Iott and his family sold the company (about a dozen years ago) to a large Michigan grocery distrubutor, Spartan. The deal did not work out well for the Foodtown employees.....all of the stores and distribution centers closed within a few years.

One could ask about the demise. Mr. Iott, running a seemingly effective campaign against Ms. Kaptur, uses the phrase in his campaign that he is a "job creator". The Kaptur campaign has been using the demise of NW Ohio's largest grocery chain as election-year fodder. An interesting and competitive battle.

Now comes the revelation, all over the internet, on Bill Maher's HBO program, and just this morning on the ABC political program, that Mr. Iott engages in war reenactments. Pictures of Rich and his son, dressed in Civil War garb, holds no interest. However, pictures have also surfaced of Iott dressed in Nazi clothing. The Kaptur campaign has no comment (yet). This Bear hopes that they refrain from commenting.....but it is an uncivil campaign season (on all sides).

BTW.....this Bear had some involvement when Seaway Foodtown closed. My company was instrumental in purchasing much of their warehouse racking and conveyors.

As for Toledo-area politics.....don't forget, we gave the world Joe The Plumber. :-c

Bear
 
Continuing The Rich Iott News

Here's one of many web references that popped-up in the last couple days, concerning Rich Iott, candidate for Ohio's 9th House District, running against long-term Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur (with a Masters in Urban Planning :-c). Make your own decisions. This Bear is just providing all the news that gives us fits. Or is it, all the news that fit. Whatever.

The vid doesn't show much of the discussion on Bill Maher's HBO program (Friday night). It was freakin' hilarious because one of the guest panelists was P.J. O'Rourke, a conservative humorist who is often a guest on this program. O'Rourke is from Toledo and did not realize that Rich Iott is from Toledo suburb Monclova.

O'Rourke: "Wait a minute. Is the 9th District Toledo?"
Magazine Writer: "Yes it is. Those are your people."
O'Rourke: "Toledo hasn't elected a Conservative since the 1940s. Now I see why."

Laughter. Funny show. Make up your own mind.

Bear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnw4ubuiCig&feature=related
 
Cut our Salaries

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...PINION/Public-employee-benefits-should-be-cut

It seems that many politicians are running on the idea that we government employees are overpaid. I don't know if it is just politicing or if they actually believe that we are overpaid, but it is really getting bad. Many governments have cut jobs, cut wages, or put in a wage freeze that includes furloughs. This is because there is enough work to be done that it requires people to be present. These people have to be able to eat and feed their children.

I think when places like that little town in California take advantage of the system, it obviously makes everyone look bad... but in general, government employment shouldn't be a political football like it is.
 
^^
Public employee pensions are *KILLING* the finances of governments at all levels across the USA, driving many into bankruptcy. AND, in many areas, average pay and benefit rates for active public employees far exceed the average pay and benefits of those who pay the taxes that support them. It is a valid issue.

Company pensions are RARE and getting rarer in the private sector, too, BTW.

Mike
 
mgk920 said:
^^
Public employee pensions are *KILLING* the finances of governments at all levels across the USA, driving many into bankruptcy. AND, in many areas, average pay and benefit rates for active public employees far exceed the average pay and benefits of those who pay the taxes that support them. It is a valid issue.

Company pensions are RARE and getting rarer in the private sector, too, BTW.

Mike
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Years of deferred contributions and "borrowing" from the NJ public employees pension has left it underfunded by $46 billion. Both parties have contributed to the shortfall. http://247wallst.com/2010/09/13/the-public-pension-bomb-is-set-to-explode/
 
mgk920 said:
^^
Public employee pensions are *KILLING* the finances of governments at all levels across the USA, driving many into bankruptcy. AND, in many areas, average pay and benefit rates for active public employees far exceed the average pay and benefits of those who pay the taxes that support them. It is a valid issue.

Company pensions are RARE and getting rarer in the private sector, too, BTW.

Mike
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It is valid, but more so at the state level. Sure there are some large cities that are dealing with it, but I would say a vast majority of all local governments are not faced with this issue.
 
mgk920 said:
^^
Public employee pensions are *KILLING* the finances of governments at all levels across the USA, driving many into bankruptcy. AND, in many areas, average pay and benefit rates for active public employees far exceed the average pay and benefits of those who pay the taxes that support them. It is a valid issue.

Company pensions are RARE and getting rarer in the private sector, too, BTW.

Mike
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I agree that pensions and health benefits are really hurting a lot of local and state governments all over the country but the people working at state and local governments who were hired within the last 5 years or so have vastly different retirement plans and benefits packages than those who have been in their jobs for years. I do not know a single person hired at a local government recently who has a pension (everybody has gone to defined contribution programs) and I pay health insurance premiums on par with what is paid for similar coverage in the private sector (as do my cohorts in similar situations).

If city/county/state governments want to save some real money they need to go through the effort and renegotiate the contracts and benefits packages for those who are already retired and those nearing retirement. Unions and other advocates for the benefit recipients will of course cry foul but there have already been court cases won in the governments' favor that allowed them to reduce benefits.

My pay and benefits are in no way better than what I would earn in the private sector for comparable work and after adjusting for inflation I'm earning considerably less now than when I started working here because of pay cuts already enacted (I just got another 2.5% cut October 1st). I earn fewer vacation hours and have fewer days off than friends in most private sectors. I've been here nearly four years and because of a hiring and promotion freeze it is next to impossible to move up in the organization (which seems pretty common in local governments lately). Our staff is already cut to the bone as far as full-time employees go and we have to rely more on interns and part-timers to fill in the gaps (it doesn't come close). The main incentive for me staying in my position is the job security that I have already earned and the hope that when things do improve, our commissioners will remember that many of the entry level folks stuck it out and continued to provide exceptional services instead of jumping ship. I cannot imagine that I am the only local government employee experiencing this.

If local and state governments continue to cut benefits and pay, especially for entry level employees, the quality of employee that they will attract is bound to suffer causing the services to suffer.



Sorry for the rant. My point: Renegotiate pensions and benefits packages for long-time employees and existing retirees. Stop cutting for those at the bottom. :-{
 
mgk920 said:
^^
Public employee pensions are *KILLING* the finances of governments at all levels across the USA, driving many into bankruptcy. AND, in many areas, average pay and benefit rates for active public employees far exceed the average pay and benefits of those who pay the taxes that support them. It is a valid issue.

Company pensions are RARE and getting rarer in the private sector, too, BTW.

Mike
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This is principally a conservative talking point and nothing more. Many public pensions were foolishly invested in the market - allowing public entitites to udnerfund their portions of the pension. As you know- pensions are generally funded one part by employee and one part matching by employer. Public agencies underfunded their portion because they relied on unusual gains in the market to make up the difference. AND as you also know- investing pensions in the market is a conservative's wet dream. Look how well it played out.

Company pensions are rare and getting rarer. But that wasn't the case. Railing against public pensions because they are the last real middle class safety net is just sick. It isn't that public employees benefits got too cushy- it is that private pensions dissappeared as corporate elites raided their employee pension programs. Your argument is that we shuold all be going backward in living standards- as opposed to going forward. We are dangerously close to losing the middle class completely, and your sort of rhetoric only exacerbates the problem.
 
mgk920 said:
AND, in many areas, average pay and benefit rates for active public employees far exceed the average pay and benefits of those who pay the taxes that support them.
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Even if this is the case now, it was not the case prior to the current recession. The private sector, in general, has considerably more leeway in dealing with financial constraints, including payroll, than the public sector does. Not to mention the amount of unemployed with no income contributing to the pay averages. When (if?) the economy rebounds, expect the tide to reverse again.
 
imaplanner said:
This is principally a conservative talking point and nothing more. Many public pensions were foolishly invested in the market - allowing public entitites to udnerfund their portions of the pension. As you know- pensions are generally funded one part by employee and one part matching by employer. Public agencies underfunded their portion because they relied on unusual gains in the market to make up the difference. AND as you also know- investing pensions in the market is a conservative's wet dream. Look how well it played out.

Company pensions are rare and getting rarer. But that wasn't the case. Railing against public pensions because they are the last real middle class safety net is just sick. It isn't that public employees benefits got too cushy- it is that private pensions dissappeared as corporate elites raided their employee pension programs. Your argument is that we shuold all be going backward in living standards- as opposed to going forward. We are dangerously close to losing the middle class completely, and your sort of rhetoric only exacerbates the problem.
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For a change, I agree with Ima almost point for point. I have worked in places where the government employees made far less than those in the private sector. In fact I had an office manager that could have made more money as a stripper.:-c:-o:wall:

This also restates the lie that government work is easy and overpaid. As I tell my new hires, you have got to be committed to the job. If not, you will not last.

Corporate elities have killed middle class America, Between the outsourcing, NAFTA and raiding pensions. Blaming the Unions doesn't cut it either, before you bring that up.
 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43515.html

And this is good for politics how?


For four decades, advocates for stricter campaign finance rules have been on a long, slow march to make big money in politics less important and more transparent.

Now, in 2010, they are seeing the results: Never in modern political history has there been so much secret money gushing into an American election.
By Election Day, independent groups will have aired more than $200 million worth of campaign ads using cash that can’t be traced back to its original source, predicts Fred Wertheimer, president of the non-profit group Democracy 21.
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I still cannot understand how anyone can support this. The government needs transparency. Both sides can agree on that. Why would we allow secret money to go into campaigns, when it obviously only muddies the water. Stupid. :r:
 
Hink_Planner said:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43515.html
.........
I still cannot understand how anyone can support this. The government needs transparency. Both sides can agree on that. Why would we allow secret money to go into campaigns, when it obviously only muddies the water. Stupid. :r:
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Nothing can be done about it now. Not until a situation occurs that causes the needed transparency. The rules of the game changed and the players have to adapt.:not:
 
Hink_Planner said:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43515.html

And this is good for politics how?




I still cannot understand how anyone can support this. The government needs transparency. Both sides can agree on that. Why would we allow secret money to go into campaigns, when it obviously only muddies the water. Stupid. :r:
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The way I see it is that there are two principle reasons why this is and will always be the case. Politicians- despite what they say and maybe even believe before they get into office, will never change this. And second- big money is now being spent to convince gullible Americans (read tea-party types) that any regulation of the ability to spend money on campaigns is un-American.
 
Sig Iott

The campaign for Ohio's 9th Congressional District has really heated-up. With all the national media coverage the two sides are engaged in a real battle of words. The Rich Iott campaign (hurting from the Nazi pics and removal from Republican lists of fast-risers) claims the other side started the fight. The Marcy Kaptur campaign continues to release statements such as "We are shocked, shocked." Various Jewish groups have publicly commented.

Good fun. Not.

Me wonders why suburban Toledo's Joe The Plumber is so quiet.

Bear
 
^^ Yeah. Then we have Rand Paul who said he won't comment on his previous statements about restructuring taxes. Joe Miller is refusing to talk to anybody, Sharon Angle refuses to talk to anybody but fox news. I mean - what the heck.

And now we have not only birthers, but people who claim that Barack Obama may have been born in Hawaii, but that the President probably isn't actually Barack Obama - we need DNA testing to be sure. After all- what is he hiding?

http://www.westernjournalism.com/its-high-time-to-investigate-obama/
 
imaplanner said:
And now we have not only birthers, but people who claim that Barack Obama may have been born in Hawaii, but that the President probably isn't actually Barack Obama - we need DNA testing to be sure. After all- what is he hiding?

http://www.westernjournalism.com/its-high-time-to-investigate-obama/
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Oh. My. G_d! That is the most insidious waste of digital space and sorry excuse for "journalism" I have read in a very very long time. Seriously.

So, now the assertion is that, since the Hawaii birth certificate appears to be real, he is not actually the biological children of the parents on his birth certificate? Instead he is some foreign born adopted child? Because, what, this "lie" of being born to an American mother and Kenyan father is so free of complications?! Did these "parents" decide to adopt a bi-racial child so they could fool everyone into believing it was theirs in the hopes that he would some day run for president and not be disqualified?! Pu-leeeeze!
 
wahday said:
Oh. My. G_d! That is the most insidious waste of digital space and sorry excuse for "journalism" I have read in a very very long time. Seriously.

So, now the assertion is that, since the Hawaii birth certificate appears to be real, he is not actually the biological children of the parents on his birth certificate? Instead he is some foreign born adopted child? Because, what, this "lie" of being born to an American mother and Kenyan father is so free of complications?! Did these "parents" decide to adopt a bi-racial child so they could fool everyone into believing it was theirs in the hopes that he would some day run for president and not be disqualified?! Pu-leeeeze!
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Did you reazd some of the user comments? It seems that Malcom X might be his real father, and if so- it was indeed a huge conspiracy to bring the white man down!
 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43830.html

http://www.politico.com/polls/power-and-the-people/

Most established Republican's don't think the Tea Party has a chance in Rick Perry's Texas to do much of anything other than be noisy and uninformed.

The fissure that is happening in the republican party is going to get much bigger after the election. 2012 will be interesting. The Tea Party should be trying to convince America that they are a valid exercise of freedom of speech. Instead they are mongering all kinds of junk that really has no chance of succeeding. Once they get in office, they will fail, and 2012 will hopefully be normal (more moderate) republicans running against Obama, so they have a chance at winning. McCain only got close because he was a moderate. His only flaw was a GIANT one named Sarah Palin. Hopefully the established Republicans won't allow that kind of mistake again if they hope to win in 2012.
 
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