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NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

I really would like to see a president that could rise above the partisanship and push an agenda that looks to what's best for the country as opposed to what's being pushed by one side or the other. (ACA is such a classic example; it was essentially what the Right wanted under Clinton, but as soon as Obama suggested it, the Right was against it... not because it was bad policy but because it was the plan that came from the other side.)

I think so many people are like you and me and want to see this. Try to do the best for the country and not just your party. Just because you think Obama is at fault for everything including you latest VD does not make every idea a bad one. There's part of me that wants to see sweet karma on the party and let them win while the other side gets the house and senate and blocks everything they do, but that's not moving our country forward.
 
Let me get this straight - there are two presidential candidates who are sons of immigrants don't want to allow any more immigrants. Yep, that makes sense.:r::-|:not:
 
Let me get this straight - there are two presidential candidates who are sons of immigrants don't want to allow any more immigrants. Yep, that makes sense.:r::-|:not:

Don't forget Trump has a tendency to marry immigrants as well and he is vehemently opposed to immigrants.

Bush is also married to an immigrant, but he is the moderate voice (if you can call him that) on immigration. Of course, the definition of moderate on immigration is like calling Bush the fastest turtle of the group.

Hink: Great description of Kasich!
 
Often times I vote for the weakest opposition party candidates at primaries, but this year the crop is so frightening I'm staying clear away and voting in my own party's primary to assuage my conscience on the off chance that some reality star or brain donor does the unthinkable and gets elected POTUS.:-c
 
Last night was hard to watch. I did it, but I am just amazed at how out there some of the candidates are.

Trump. Not a good showing. He seems to have Cruz as a friend but no one else. He even went after the crowd when the booed him. He may have "poll numbers", but reality is going to set in.
Cruz. Such an unlikable guy. Geez. I can't understand how he is so annoying. Not just his assine policy positions, but just his mannerisms, and his dickishness.
Rubio. Likeable. Not sure he is very good at explaining our Patriot Act, but was trying. He is way more Presidential then the rest of the lot.
Bush. He tried to zing Trump, but it is just so flat. He is just so flat. No emotion or fire.
Carson. Why is he even up there? I would say he is worse than Jeb in interest, and worse than Trump in ability. Just because he is a neurosurgeon doesn't mean you know anything about foreign policy.
Fiorina. Her, "I know the private sector" line would work if people in the private sector thought she didn't suck. Stop using that line.
Kasich. He didn't get much time to talk, but that is okay, he was so good using his hands that he didn't need words. Yikes. Bow out already.
Paul. I like that he is unwilling to back down on what he believes, even if he is crazy. Nice to see someone with conviction on the stage though.
Christie. Actually seems to be gaining ground. He is straight forward and does the least bloviating. I think he will move up after this debate.

---

My rankings on the night:

Rubio.
Christie.
Cruz.
Bush.
Trump.
Fiorina.
Carson
Paul
Kasich.


I was in a 6 hour town council meeting so I did not get to watch, but from the reports that I read, I believe your observations are dead on.

I am disappointed in the entire field of Rs and Ds. They each have little bits that I agree with, but as a whole, there is not one candidate that I am willing to support. They all suck and our country is screwed.
 
Don't forget Trump has a tendency to marry immigrants as well and he is vehemently opposed to immigrants.

Bush is also married to an immigrant, but he is the moderate voice (if you can call him that) on immigration. Of course, the definition of moderate on immigration is like calling Bush the fastest turtle of the group.

Hink: Great description of Kasich!

FWIW, Trump is the grandson of German immigrants.
 
You are correct, the report that I read was outdated as it was written before she passed away. Additionally, I found out that it was a deputized sheriff who pulled his gun, and the assailant took his own life without the deputy firing a round.

However, here is a link (I know, pro gun site... but you posted CNN so let's balance it out) that provides further details on the truth about gun free zones vs other areas. I am not saying all their stats are 100% correct, but being the FBI's claim that it has only prevented one situation when there are overwhelming reports saying that it is more makes you wonder what numbers to trust.

I wasn't arguing the general concept, just your particular example. Gun policy is one of those things where one can find data sets that "prove" either side of the argument. I know you as well as over 90% of gun owners agree that better background checking is needed, yet we can't even get that done. As long as the sides dig in to the assault weapons ban vs 2nd amendment purest arguments with no meeting in the middle nothing gets done. All that the rhetoric on the left does is make gun and ammunition companies billions. Just require a background check for every purchase. Let the folks that are in jail for minor drug crimes out and replace them with mandatory minimum sentences when convicted of gun crimes, even for juveniles. Pretty simple stuff.
 
I wasn't arguing the general concept, just your particular example. Gun policy is one of those things where one can find data sets that "prove" either side of the argument. I know you as well as over 90% of gun owners agree that better background checking is needed, yet we can't even get that done. As long as the sides dig in to the assault weapons ban vs 2nd amendment purest arguments with no meeting in the middle nothing gets done. All that the rhetoric on the left does is make gun and ammunition companies billions. Just require a background check for every purchase. Let the folks that are in jail for minor drug crimes out and replace them with mandatory minimum sentences when convicted of gun crimes, even for juveniles. Pretty simple stuff.

I agree with your pointing out of the example. But being that the first example was did not show what I intended, I wanted to back it up with something else.

I will see your "background checks to buy", and raise you an "improved training for those who want to carry". Unfortunately the polarizing concepts of each side will never allow this to happen.
 
Yeah...and

You are correct, the report that I read was outdated as it was written before she passed away. Additionally, I found out that it was a deputized sheriff who pulled his gun, and the assailant took his own life without the deputy firing a round.

My cousin posted the meme this fantasy story comes from and I had to respond with......wait for it......facts.

I just read the final report as published by the Sheriff

The deputy was eating lunch, got up and ran down the hall towards the library. One of the two staff members with him thought he heard a shot. They get to the student and the two staff take her outside. Two additional deputies showed up and all three went into the library. None of the deputies EVER even heard a shot before finding the killer dead on the ground in the library. So the only gun that did anything to stop the shooter was his own shotgun in his mouth. :-\:s::u::huh::wall::wall::wall:
 
Interesting... gun sales continue to increase, murder rates decline, and gun ownership declines.

What does all this mean? Less people have guns, but those who do have them, are buying more. Oh, and less people are getting murdered. Do you think there is a connection?
 
Interesting... gun sales continue to increase, murder rates decline, and gun ownership declines.

What does all this mean? Less people have guns, but those who do have them, are buying more. Oh, and less people are getting murdered. Do you think there is a connection?

It means gun owners are like alcoholics and believe they need more to make things better and that two fisted shooting is the best thing ever.

Seriously though, it's not the number of guns. I have a friend who collects guns. His house is loaded. It's not number of guns he owns, but how many people he feels like shooting. Since he isn't the shooting kind of person we're all safe. The more idiots that have even one gun the more shootings that happen. It goes back to the same thing we keep discussing, better background checks would reduce the number of idiots.
 
Interesting... gun sales continue to increase, murder rates decline, and gun ownership declines.

What does all this mean? Less people have guns, but those who do have them, are buying more. Oh, and less people are getting murdered. Do you think there is a connection?

Nope. Declining murder rates and overall violent crime reduction is more closely correlated to improved family planning access reducing unwanted pregnancies and therefore unwanted children that had a prevalence to go toward criminal lifestyles due to poverty, limited family support, etc. Surely you've read Freakonomics.:p:science:

One interesting thing... gun access is linked to increased suicide risk. Guns aren't the most popular suicide means, but they are the most lethal. They are also most commonly linked to murder-suicide scenarios.

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gun-suicide-idUSBREA0J1G920140120
[/URL]

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/guns-and-suicide-the-hidden-toll/
 
It means gun owners are like alcoholics and believe they need more to make things better and that two fisted shooting is the best thing ever.

Seriously though, it's not the number of guns. I have a friend who collects guns. His house is loaded. It's not number of guns he owns, but how many people he feels like shooting. Since he isn't the shooting kind of person we're all safe. The more idiots that have even one gun the more shootings that happen. It goes back to the same thing we keep discussing, better background checks would reduce the number of idiots.

So, let me understand this correctly... It does not matter if it is an AR-15 or a pellet gun, or the number of guns one has, what matters is the intent of the person with the gun. 8-!

Nope. Declining murder rates and overall violent crime reduction is more closely correlated to improved family planning access reducing unwanted pregnancies and therefore unwanted children that had a prevalence to go toward criminal lifestyles due to poverty, limited family support, etc. Surely you've read Freakonomics.:p:science:

One interesting thing... gun access is linked to increased suicide risk. Guns aren't the most popular suicide means, but they are the most lethal. They are also most commonly linked to murder-suicide scenarios.

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gun-suicide-idUSBREA0J1G920140120
[/URL]

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/guns-and-suicide-the-hidden-toll/

I have read freakonomics... and as someone who is pro-life, (well, pro-choice up until the point of conception that is), I don't buy it. It also says that if we want less accidents, put a spike in the middle of the steering wheel pointed at one's heart instead of requiring people to wear seatbelts.

As for the suicide thing, it is a real risk. The gun range/store that I would frequent changed their rental policy a few years ago after someone rented a gun, went into the range, and killed himself. After that, people who are renting are required to bring someone with them. Once again, it all comes down to a lack of mental health services in the US. However, the unfortunate thing is sometimes the signs are so quiet, no one knows what one is going through until it is too late. But we can do a better job of letting people know that they can get help before it is too late.
 
So, let me understand this correctly... It does not matter if it is an AR-15 or a pellet gun, or the number of guns one has, what matters is the intent of the person with the gun. 8-!

True, but since I can't regulate a persons intent let's regulate the crap out of guns! After all, I don't know when you're gonna snap. You're okay today, but after that next meeting about solar panels you might just break. :D
 
True, but since I can't regulate a persons intent let's regulate the crap out of guns! After all, I don't know when you're gonna snap. You're okay today, but after that next meeting about solar panels you might just break. :D

Wrong part of NC. :lmao: They don't suck up the sun's energy over here.
 
You don't see me advocating weapons bans on here, do you? The main reason I don't is because SCOTUS has made pretty-much abundantly clear that complete prohibitions aren't gonna fly the same way they did in Australia. Plus, trying for an extreme solution likely undermines real progress that could easily be made with some smaller, less controversial and more incremental solutions. As a gun owner, I can't for the life of me understand the compelling need to own an AR-15, own a large collection of guns, etc. I certainly don't understand the urge to open carry other than to be an intimidating douche. Culturally we need to stop with the gun fetish/worship. That's a very long process though.

My focus is on reforms that I think 80% of Americans would support and that 80% of gunowners shouldn't be bothered by. These are the obvious "we have to do something" things that should be non-controversial except that the NRA (who only represents gun manufacturers at the table & operates in a state of paranoia about every regulation being a slippery slope) keeps even the simplest meaningful reforms from occurring.

  • Permit-to-purchase/universal background checks with no loopholes... this minor reform alone is thought to reduce ALL gun-related deaths by 15% to 20%.
  • Improve background check databases... include obviously things like "do not fly" lists.
  • Funding to local police for focused deterrence programs to help individuals exit criminal organizations as well as community outreach policing. This technique appears to reduce violent gun crime by 20% to 40%
  • Reform the Gun Control Act as it pertains to mental health restrictions. Modify so that there are non-lifelong categories and to create a system to allow temporary restriction of 5 years following any confinement for mental health reasons, with provisions allowing a judge to reduce on petition. Also establish a process by which treating psychologists & psychiatrists can quickly petition for a temporary restriction when they feel the person is a likely threat to themselves or others. Obviously this one is more complicated, but would have a huge positive impact on people harming themselves with a gun as well as others.

The first three should be really, really easy for any rational human being to implement. It is low-hanging fruit. The fourth could be easy, but just needs some experts to work through how to implement in a fair & efficient way.

I'm not a big fan of using buzzfeed as a referenced source, but it honestly has the best article I've seen on the gun issue and is quite even-handed about both sides. http://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldhous/how-to-reduce-gun-violence

You have to roll about halfway through the article to get to the recommended list of things that can be done in the U.S. that show statistical promise to reduce gun-related deaths.

A few excerpts about things that work:

Permit-to-purchase (or equivalent procedure) laws with universal background checks

However, legislative changes in Connecticut and Missouri, which went in opposite directions, have provided a clearer picture. Until 2007, Missouri required people buying a gun to have a permit issued by law enforcement, which was contingent on passing background checks. Over the five years that followed without this requirement, the state's annual gun murder rate rose by 16%, according to a study from a team led by Daniel Webster of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. Neighboring states saw no similar spike.

Connecticut introduced a similar permit-to-purchase law, again with background checks, in 1995. In this case, Webster's team estimated that the law reduced gun homicides by 40%.

Implement focused deterrence as a policing technique

Some of the strongest evidence on reducing gun violence comes not from controls on gun purchases, but from an approach to policing called "focused deterrence."

Pioneered in the 1990s in Boston, where it was called "Operation Ceasefire," this involves police and community leaders meeting with members of criminal groups and delivering the message that their identities are known and that gun crime won't be tolerated. Then come efforts to help people out of criminal activity, with the clear understanding that law enforcement will crack down hard on the targeted individuals if they use their guns.

Since rolled out in dozens of other cities, repeated studies have shown that the approach can reduce urban gun violence — typically by between 20 and 40%.


But More Guns Often Means More Problems

But the evidence suggests that gun ownership actually does little to make people safer. Analyzing 14,000 incidents involving personal contact between perpetrator and victim from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), David Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health and economist Sara Solnick of the University of Vermont found that a gun was brandished in self-defense on only 127 occasions. And doing so didn't reduce the likelihood that the victim would be injured — although it did lessen the chance of property loss.

The idea that gun ownership deters crime also looks shaky when subjected to close scrutiny. Again using data from the NCVS, Cook found in an earlier study that burglary rates tend to be higher in counties with higher rates of gun ownership. The reason for the relationship wasn't clear, but one possibility is that guns themselves are valuable commodities, motivating criminals to steal them.


The conversation about how to reduce gun deaths tends to focus on homicides. But for every gun murder, there are almost two gun suicides. And while gun homicides have been in decline since the early 1990s, firearm suicides are on the rise.

So any attempt to seriously reduce gun deaths needs to keep firearms out of the hands of people who are most vulnerable to self-harm. If they can't get their hands on a gun, chances are that someone desperate enough to consider killing themselves will survive: The fatality rate for suicide attempts overall is around 9%; but where a firearm is used, that rises to 85%.

Encouragingly, background checks seem to help prevent gun suicides, as well as reducing gun murders. Webster and his colleagues have calculated that Connecticut's permit-to-purchase law reduced firearm suicides by 15.4%, while Missouri's repeal of its law increased its gun suicide rate by 16.1%.


Mental illness isn't the answer on violent crime

the vast majority of mentally ill people are never violent to others — and even if the risk posed by mentally disturbed people could be reduced to the average level for the general population, about 96% of the violent crime in America would still occur.

Far more powerful is the link between mental illness and gun suicide. "If we were to cure mental illness, the suicide rate would go down by 50 to 75%," Jeffrey Swanson, a gun violence researcher at Duke University


The federal Gun Control Act, passed in 1968, prohibits gun ownership by people who have been involuntarily committed for treatment for psychiatric illness, and those judged to be "mentally defective." The problem is that these restrictions are both too broad and too narrow. In particular, many people at high risk of harming themselves have never been committed involuntarily for treatment.

Another problem is that the federal mental health restrictions on gun ownership are lifelong. This fails to recognize that suicidality comes in episodes — which usually pass, if the urge is not acted on.

What we should do, according to Swanson, is to recognize when people's behaviour indicates that they are at immediate risk of harming themselves or others, and temporarily restrict their access to guns until they have recovered.

Some states have introduced laws that try to do this. In California, people who are deemed to pose a risk to themselves or others can be held in a mental health facility for 72 hours, and since 1990 this has triggered a five-year ban on possessing guns — which can be curtailed earlier though a court petition.

We're still waiting for conclusive studies on the effectiveness of such restrictions, Swanson said. "It will be a while before there's enough experience with these laws to say whether they've worked."
 
I just stick with a couple simple ideas in no particular order:
1. lift the ban on research
2. increase background checks or at least provide enough time to do a real check
3. limit high capacity and fully auto weapons. There's no need and if you can't hit the target in say 10 shots you don't need to be carrying a gun.

In the case of my friends collection, not that this justifies his immense collection, he collected guns in his travels. He used to lead safaris in Africa and has a few specialty guns from that. He tends to collect guns that make you say wow like old muskets, His house is a museum. He does have some modern stuff that he goes hunting with or just out to the range, but unless it's a true collectors piece, he isn't that interested.
 
Carly Fiorina just took political pandering to a whole new level
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ght-political-pandering-to-a-whole-new-level/


But when Carly Fiorina declared Friday afternoon that she was rooting for Iowa in college football's Rose Bowl, despite being from California, that's not even why it was bad.

It was bad because Iowa is playing her alma mater, Stanford University.

That's right: Carly Fiorina is conveniently rooting against her own school and for the school from the state that just happens to be politically important to her current ambitions.

You almost have to give Fiorina credit for the brazenness of this pandering — the shamelessness of her sports allegiance being available to the bidder with the most political currency.

Carly Fiorina's Rose Bowl tweet draws Twitter scorn, hashtag
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/carly-fiorina-rose-bowl-tweet-217285
 
I'm convinced a Trump 3rd party run is in the cards after maybe the third or fourth state primary. Think about it - the GOP establishment is not going to let this guy this guy get the votes come primary time. I'm a bit unclear on the actual mechanisms the party will use to stack the deck against him (play games with ballot procedures and/or require voters to sign party pledges in order to vote, etc.), but rest assured the party would rather write off this particular Presidential election than allow the perception to solidify that the GOP is the party of bigotry and fear-mongering.
 
I have yet to see a list of the proposed gun laws that Obama is looking to implement with executive order.

Just a few thoughts. I am in support of a nation wide background check system on the sale of all firearms using an internet based format where an FFL can log into a website, make an inquiry, and have a response back within 30 to 45 minutes or less. There should be a definitive set of flags without variability.

I am not in favor of the use of executive action for this. This should go through the congressional process. However I think we need to do away with the influence of the NRA and all other lobbyist groups. (not just gun groups, but EVERYONE, including the APA).

I do not think the ban on semiautomatic weapons, AR style weapons, or the like will make any difference other than kicking an angry dog.
 
I have yet to see a list of the proposed gun laws that Obama is looking to implement with executive order.

Just a few thoughts. I am in support of a nation wide background check system on the sale of all firearms using an internet based format where an FFL can log into a website, make an inquiry, and have a response back within 30 to 45 minutes or less. There should be a definitive set of flags without variability.

I am not in favor of the use of executive action for this. This should go through the congressional process. However I think we need to do away with the influence of the NRA and all other lobbyist groups. (not just gun groups, but EVERYONE, including the APA).

I do not think the ban on semiautomatic weapons, AR style weapons, or the like will make any difference other than kicking an angry dog.

I'm just glad he has the balls to step up and do something. Right or wrong at least we'll be taking a first step in curbing some of the violence. It's like getting a fat man to walk. Near impossible, but once you get him to take the first step it's easier to get him to take a second step.
 
I'm just glad he has the balls to step up and do something. Right or wrong at least we'll be taking a first step in curbing some of the violence. It's like getting a fat man to walk. Near impossible, but once you get him to take the first step it's easier to get him to take a second step.

I would like to see us step up the regulation and see what happens. Everyone seems to think it will do no good. So why not try and see what happens? The worst that could happen is that is reduces only a bit of gun violence. Then we can have the discussion about whether or not it was worth it. Make the law only last 10 years. After that time period we can determine if we need to go back and give people assault weapons again.

I think a good use of government money would be a buy back program. The government buys guns voluntarily. Lots of them. Like a billion dollars worth. Then we go from there. That would incentivize those more unwilling to do it. But not force someone to do it.
 
Funny because you appear to think the APA actually wields influence. :p

:-c WHAT? They don't?

I'm just glad he has the balls to step up and do something. Right or wrong at least we'll be taking a first step in curbing some of the violence. It's like getting a fat man to walk. Near impossible, but once you get him to take the first step it's easier to get him to take a second step.

Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still doing the wrong thing. It would be like me conceal carrying my gun in a pistol free zone. Does not matter the reason that I had a gun on me, it's still wrong. He is the President, not the emperor, it should go through the proper process and the R's and D's both need to stop being puppets to special interest groups.

I would like to see us step up the regulation and see what happens. Everyone seems to think it will do no good. So why not try and see what happens? The worst that could happen is that is reduces only a bit of gun violence. Then we can have the discussion about whether or not it was worth it. Make the law only last 10 years. After that time period we can determine if we need to go back and give people assault weapons again.

I think a good use of government money would be a buy back program. The government buys guns voluntarily. Lots of them. Like a billion dollars worth. Then we go from there. That would incentivize those more unwilling to do it. But not force someone to do it.

Nothing is as permanent as a temporary government program. Just look at Social Security.

I think that gun buy back programs are not a bad idea, although I would rather it be on a state by state basis. However, I do not think that the government should just destroy the guns that they buy back. I would support reselling them after background checks or using them for training and law enforcement.
 
Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still doing the wrong thing. It would be like me conceal carrying my gun in a pistol free zone. Does not matter the reason that I had a gun on me, it's still wrong. He is the President, not the emperor, it should go through the proper process and the R's and D's both need to stop being puppets to special interest groups.

It's part of my general philosophy of government action. You have to get the ball rolling even if it's in the wrong direction. Once it's rolling you can turn the thing around or make course corrections until you get it right or at least as close to right as government can be. The hardest part is getting that ball rolling.

Of course the pres. is only doing as much as the authority of his office allows. Anything else would be illegal! :D Even if it is legal I'm sure someone will declare it illegal.
 
It's part of my general philosophy of government action. You have to get the ball rolling even if it's in the wrong direction. Once it's rolling you can turn the thing around or make course corrections until you get it right or at least as close to right as government can be. The hardest part is getting that ball rolling.

Of course the pres. is only doing as much as the authority of his office allows. Anything else would be illegal! :D Even if it is legal I'm sure someone will declare it illegal.

The power of the presidency has gone beyond legal limits for the past 100+ years.

As for the ball, the problem is when it gets rolling too fast for too long in the same direction, it is almost impossible to fix the direction. Just look at the condition of our government today.
 
I just read an overview of the obama's gun control actions, and I thought there would be more in there. I don't think that his ideas are unreasonable, but it would have been nice to see a CPL to CPL sales exemption. In many states, if a person who has a Concealed Pistol Licence sells to another CPL holder, there is some paperwork that needs to be filled out and sent to the government, but it is otherwise outside of a government oversight because both parties have already gone through the background checks. I also know many of the smaller FFL's such as hardware stores will offer a transfer service for a fee. If you want to sell a gun to another person and one or both of you don't have a CPL, they will charge a fee for the background check, processing, and a small commission. Essentially, you sell them the gun, they sell it to the other person.

I think the NRA is being stupid for flitting out about this. However, I do agree that this is something that needs to go through the congressional process.
 
I think the NRA is being stupid for flitting out about this. However, I do agree that this is something that needs to go through the congressional process.

I agree that it should have gone through the congressional process - in a rational approach - however with the bunch of congresspeople who are in there now it would have been a shitshow. Remember anything that the president puts forth, they will shoot it down just because he's _________________ (democrat, black, muslim, liberal, anti-gun, etc.). This being the case, the executive order was the only avenue. I'm not arguing with you on this, I'm agreeing but with a realistic twist.

***************************

Let's go to Oregon:
Mrs. P and I discussed this last night and then I did some reading so we can continue our conversation tonight. Here's what I've found:
1. Ranchers pay 93% less to graze on federal land than what they would pay on private lands, even though it costs the federal government more to maintain the land - but that doesn't matter because they believe the federal lands is theirs.
2. Ammon Bundy (their 'leader') borrowed $530,000 though the federal small business loan program for his semi-trucking business a couple years ago. He is Clive Bundy's son.
3. I wonder how these events would be viewed by the ranchers, or the media, or the general public if; 1) it happened in another country or 2) they were black, muslim, or illegal immigrants?
 
snip

***************************

Let's go to Oregon:
Mrs. P and I discussed this last night and then I did some reading so we can continue our conversation tonight. Here's what I've found:
1. Ranchers pay 93% less to graze on federal land than what they would pay on private lands, even though it costs the federal government more to maintain the land - but that doesn't matter because they believe the federal lands is theirs.
2. Ammon Bundy (their 'leader') borrowed $530,000 though the federal small business loan program for his semi-trucking business a couple years ago. He is Clive Bundy's son.
3. I wonder how these events would be viewed by the ranchers, or the media, or the general public if; 1) it happened in another country or 2) they were black, muslim, or illegal immigrants?

Why does Waco come to mind whenever I think about this Oregon standoff?:-c
 
Let's go to Oregon:
Mrs. P and I discussed this last night and then I did some reading so we can continue our conversation tonight. Here's what I've found:
1. Ranchers pay 93% less to graze on federal land than what they would pay on private lands, even though it costs the federal government more to maintain the land - but that doesn't matter because they believe the federal lands is theirs.
2. Ammon Bundy (their 'leader') borrowed $530,000 though the federal small business loan program for his semi-trucking business a couple years ago. He is Clive Bundy's son.
3. I wonder how these events would be viewed by the ranchers, or the media, or the general public if; 1) it happened in another country or 2) they were black, muslim, or illegal immigrants?

I admit that I have not been following much about the situation in Oregon. Are these people in the wrong... sure, there is no question about that. However I look at other events where 'peaceful protests' resulted in property damage and violence in Chicago, Baltimore, and similar large cities protesting race relations in the US, and these people are being called terrorists.

Have these protesters shot at anyone? How much property damage was done? Was there harm done to anyone? I can't seem to find answers to these questions.
 
My issue with these Oregon idiots and why they should be dealt with harshly:

18 U.S. code 2384
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.”

Lessons need to be taught here. I doubt there is need to take them by force for their brave overthrow of a gift shop, but I sure like the idea of maximum penalties.
 
My issue with these Oregon idiots and why they should be dealt with harshly:

18 U.S. code 2384
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.”

Lessons need to be taught here. I doubt there is need to take them by force for their brave overthrow of a gift shop, but I sure like the idea of maximum penalties.

Do you have the same feelings when two or more people take by force a public spaces including a major street, intersection, or courthouse parking lot while making verbal threats against law enforcement?
 
The Money Thing

With all this hype about the lottery, one of the local news agencies talked about how much you could buy with it. But for me, they put things into a different perspective. The median household income is around $52,000 or so. The estimated one time cash payout for the $400 million powerball is about $288,000 million. That is 11,520 times more than the median family income. However, the very last people on the Forbes 400 are all worth $1.7 Billion. Almost 6 times more than the $288 million dollar payout for the lottery.

Now the median price for a house in the us is $188,000, or 3.6 times more than the median household income. The cost of food and the cost of energy are not calculated into the CPI, but these two are substantially higher. It almost seems impossible for someone from the middle class to have a stable life without money worries.

Does anyone really think that there is a governmental solution to this money issue.
 
I seriously doubt you'd ever see them charged with sedition unless shots were fired. They'll simply be charged with trespassing and sent on their way, much like other protests in circumstances like you described. But keep in mind I see A LOT of this fake-patriot pretend army crap around here and the waste it causes.

I'll pass on the true overgeneralization red herring argument (don't think that was your intent, but it looks that way on paper). You are talking about the difference between a normal protest in the public square versus the armed takeover of a facility on the basis that they believe the United States does not have authority over them and to prevent execution of the law. They have taken Federal property hostage, more or less, and made demands as though they were a sovereign nation. We have a lot of these militia type jackasses around here, and I've got no tolerance for their brand of crazy. The amount of resources they caused to be wasted in Central Texas due to their paranoia about Jade Helm hammered that home for me.

We are talking about an organized anti-government armed militia taking over a Federal property in order to force the government to remove its authority. That is not the same thing as unarmed protesters by sheer numbers blocking an intersection, though I believe even those can & should be broken up in many cases (i.e. blocking an Interstate, circumstances present a danger to the protesters or others, etc.).

You and I likely agree that armed protesters are not okay, and that a peaceful unarmed protest that converts to armed conflict or high potential for armed conflict is not okay. Unarmed peaceful protesting in the public square is a long tradition in the United States & consistent with 1st Amendment authority--I've got no problem there. Being peaceful & unarmed is critical to eliciting sympathy and building the political capital necessary to enact change. That is why King's approach worked so well. When the peaceful becomes hostile, laws are broken. It is not okay to threaten police. It is okay to refuse to comply, as that is consistent with peaceful protest (think of sit-ins as the example, or when protesters go limp to make their arrest difficult). Refusing to comply while kicking & punching is not. Threatening to attack or harm law enforcement officers is not. Depending on the circumstances, those broken laws could be related to rioting or related to sedition depending on circumstances & demands.

These jackasses are camped-out with a significant number of weapons and telling the government to bring it on. These are the same morons that bragged about having sniper rifles pointed at Federal officials when this whole BLM thing started taking on a life of its own some time back. Here's a quote from Ryan Payne, one of the current occupiers and who was previously involved with the Nevada BLM incident regarding their actions in Nevada: “We locked them down,” Payne says. “We had counter-sniper positions on their sniper positions. We had at least one guy—sometimes two guys—per BLM agent in there. So, it was a complete tactical superiority. … If they made one wrong move, every single BLM agent in that camp would’ve died.” In phone interviews from inside the occupied refuge building the Bundys said they are not looking to hurt anyone. But they would not rule out violence if police tried to remove them, they said. Ammon Bundy posted a video on his Facebook page calling on patriots from across the country to report to the refuge – with their weapons.

Does that sound like the same thing as protesters taking over an intersection or public square?

These militiamen seem to be forgetting a key fact: a force opposing government only has a measure of philosophical legitimacy if the people want their support. In this instance, the Hammonds simply want to turn themselves and finish serving their time, wanting nothing to do with this group at the refuge. Likewise, the nearby communities don't want anything to do with them. Other militia groups have told them to go fly a kite. These militiamen need to stop attempting to hijack the Hammond case in an attempt to stay relevant.
 
I seriously doubt you'd ever see them charged with sedition unless shots were fired. They'll simply be charged with trespassing and sent on their way, much like other protests in circumstances like you described. But keep in mind I see A LOT of this fake-patriot pretend army crap around here and the waste it causes.

I'll pass on the true overgeneralization red herring argument (don't think that was your intent, but it looks that way on paper). You are talking about the difference between a normal protest in the public square versus the armed takeover of a facility on the basis that they believe the United States does not have authority over them and to prevent execution of the law. They have taken Federal property hostage, more or less, and made demands as though they were a sovereign nation. We have a lot of these militia type jackasses around here, and I've got no tolerance for their brand of crazy. The amount of resources they caused to be wasted in Central Texas due to their paranoia about Jade Helm hammered that home for me.

We are talking about an organized anti-government armed militia taking over a Federal property in order to force the government to remove its authority. That is not the same thing as unarmed protesters by sheer numbers blocking an intersection, though I believe even those can & should be broken up in many cases (i.e. blocking an Interstate, circumstances present a danger to the protesters or others, etc.).

You and I likely agree that armed protesters are not okay, and that a peaceful unarmed protest that converts to armed conflict or high potential for armed conflict is not okay. Unarmed peaceful protesting in the public square is a long tradition in the United States & consistent with 1st Amendment authority--I've got no problem there. Being peaceful & unarmed is critical to eliciting sympathy and building the political capital necessary to enact change. That is why King's approach worked so well. When the peaceful becomes hostile, laws are broken. It is not okay to threaten police. It is okay to refuse to comply, as that is consistent with peaceful protest (think of sit-ins as the example, or when protesters go limp to make their arrest difficult). Refusing to comply while kicking & punching is not. Threatening to attack or harm law enforcement officers is not. Depending on the circumstances, those broken laws could be related to rioting or related to sedition depending on circumstances & demands.

These jackasses are camped-out with a significant number of weapons and telling the government to bring it on. These are the same morons that bragged about having sniper rifles pointed at Federal officials when this whole BLM thing started taking on a life of its own some time back. Here's a quote from Ryan Payne, one of the current occupiers and who was previously involved with the Nevada BLM incident regarding their actions in Nevada: "We locked them down," Payne says. "We had counter-sniper positions on their sniper positions. We had at least one guy—sometimes two guys—per BLM agent in there. So, it was a complete tactical superiority. … If they made one wrong move, every single BLM agent in that camp would've died." In phone interviews from inside the occupied refuge building the Bundys said they are not looking to hurt anyone. But they would not rule out violence if police tried to remove them, they said. Ammon Bundy posted a video on his Facebook page calling on patriots from across the country to report to the refuge – with their weapons.

Does that sound like the same thing as protesters taking over an intersection or public square?

These militiamen seem to be forgetting a key fact: a force opposing government only has a measure of philosophical legitimacy if the people want their support. In this instance, the Hammonds simply want to turn themselves and finish serving their time, wanting nothing to do with this group at the refuge. Likewise, the nearby communities don't want anything to do with them. Other militia groups have told them to go fly a kite. These militiamen need to stop attempting to hijack the Hammond case in an attempt to stay relevant.

In terms of the actions of these guys in OR, I am in complete agreement. But when there are events not classified as riots and mayors saying they need stuff for the protestors to destroy, it seems like a double standard. Yes, a gun is a weapon. But you and I both know that in a "peaceful protest" in Chicago or one of these other places, there are weapons, including guns, in the crowd. Police prepare for it and rightly so.

My point is yes, the guys in OR need to be addressed appropriately. But so do people who cause destruction to public property in the name of a peaceful protest. If a group wants to gather in a public square or other location where they are not impeding the flow of traffic, they can chant whatever they want and hold up signs... but when it results in measurable disruption to civilians not involved in the protest, than that is a different story. MLK understood the concept of peaceful protest. Today's protestors don't.
 
Let's just say the Oregon idiots are enjoying a Guns & Camo Camping Retreat.


Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last night had a good piece on this too.
 
In terms of the actions of these guys in OR, I am in complete agreement. But when there are events not classified as riots and mayors saying they need stuff for the protestors to destroy, it seems like a double standard. Yes, a gun is a weapon. But you and I both know that in a "peaceful protest" in Chicago or one of these other places, there are weapons, including guns, in the crowd. Police prepare for it and rightly so.

My point is yes, the guys in OR need to be addressed appropriately. But so do people who cause destruction to public property in the name of a peaceful protest. If a group wants to gather in a public square or other location where they are not impeding the flow of traffic, they can chant whatever they want and hold up signs... but when it results in measurable disruption to civilians not involved in the protest, than that is a different story. MLK understood the concept of peaceful protest. Today's protestors don't.

[STRIKEOUT]I heard that Ammon Bundy said that there situation is no different then what Rosa Parks did. Maybe I missed the part about Rosa Parks having an assault riffle on the bus. You don't show up with guns to a peaceful protest. [/STRIKEOUT]This is not about the Hammond's pending incarceration as the Hammonds are not associating themselves with the protest. Bundy is using the Hammonds issue as an opportunity to get his issue front and center. He won't be happy until his beef with the BLM is settled or he dies. We are better of ignoring them. A forceful removal of him and his buddies isn't going to end well.
 
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Here is an interesting question, a member of the US Senate is introducing a bill that will create federal reciprocity for Concealed Pistol Licenses. So if I have a CPL from NC, I could carry in any state in the US that issues CPL's (all of them do now). This would be regardless if that weapon is legal or not in that particular state. For example, one of my guns is not legal in CA because it does not have a popup indicator, but a lot of things are not legal in CA. People would still have to observe local pistol free zones, but otherwise if a local can carry in a location, anyone can carry in that location.

What are your thoughts on this bill? Would you support it or not?
 
Here is an interesting question, a member of the US Senate is introducing a bill that will create federal reciprocity for Concealed Pistol Licenses. So if I have a CPL from NC, I could carry in any state in the US that issues CPL's (all of them do now). This would be regardless if that weapon is legal or not in that particular state. For example, one of my guns is not legal in CA because it does not have a popup indicator, but a lot of things are not legal in CA. People would still have to observe local pistol free zones, but otherwise if a local can carry in a location, anyone can carry in that location.

What are your thoughts on this bill? Would you support it or not?

Absolutely not. CPLs are not all created equal. For example, Virginia is a mail-order with no meaningful training and pretty light background. In contrast, Texas actually requires some training (insufficient training, IMHO).

The most interesting part to me is that such a rule is actually counter to the states rights philosophy the senator usually sticks with because it forces states to accept other licenses that may be inferior to their own. This allows one state to control another state to some extent. The better choice would actually be to Federalize the permit process as far as minimum requirements for the permits and then have states administer under those parameters. Then all state permits would meet at least a minimum expectation.
 
Here is an interesting question, a member of the US Senate is introducing a bill that will create federal reciprocity for Concealed Pistol Licenses. So if I have a CPL from NC, I could carry in any state in the US that issues CPL's (all of them do now). This would be regardless if that weapon is legal or not in that particular state. For example, one of my guns is not legal in CA because it does not have a popup indicator, but a lot of things are not legal in CA. People would still have to observe local pistol free zones, but otherwise if a local can carry in a location, anyone can carry in that location.

What are your thoughts on this bill? Would you support it or not?

I'll be happy if that bill has a single standard that all (or at least most) of the states can agree with that isn't a free for all. If not this bill is exactly what the tea baggers are railing against. It's eliminating the state's right to regulate what happens within it's borders. It's a bummer for Republicans. Pick an issue, gun rights or states rights.
 
The unlawful occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge really angers me. Out in the American West we have to deal with these anti-government yahoos from time to time. Most of them call themselves Patriots and say they are fighting the good fight. But really they are a bunch of ignorant and self-serving criminals.

Let's take the Bundys. Ammon's father was called a Patriot by the Fox News crowd because Bundy stood up to the government because the Department of Interior had the audacity to require Bundy to pay his grazing fees. He agreed to pay the required fees in order to graze his animal units (that is what a cow, a cow and a calf, a steer, bull, goat or sheep is called) on federal land when it came time to pay the American people for that privilege, he refused. So the government evicted him. Much the same as you might evict a renter who didn't pay his rent to you. So I guess that guy renting your basement apartment and not paying the rent isn't a deadbeat, he's a Patriot.

Or let's take the Montana Freemen. Who took out all sort of federal loans and took the money. But when it came time to pay up, they turned to forgery and counterfeiting and claimed the federal government had no authority. Once again, Patriots.

The Bundys are part of the movement out West that believes the management and ownership of federal lands belongs in the hands of local government. They used rhetoric such as "reclaiming local control" and "returning local control" of public lands in Western states. This language is purposely misleading. There is no state control (with the exception of school sections) or local control of public lands.

The United States acquired land through the purchase of claims by foreign nations (France, Spain and Mexico), or through treaties (Mexico and Native Americans), or by beating up the owners and taking their land (England, Mexico and Native American tribes). In the case of the American West, pioneers were able through the Preemption Act, the various Homestead Acts, the 1872 Mining Act, and outright cash purchases to gain title to lands held by the federal government. Additionally, through generous land grants to railroads, much public land was transferred to the railroads to offset their cost for building railroads across the West. Two sections in each township are also set aside for the funding of schools and typically are owned and managed by the state in which they lie. I will not attempt to discuss the complicated issues of public lands in Texas, because that is a whole different ball of wax that I am not well-versed in.

So this cry for local control of public lands is just smoke. The public lands belong jointly to all the people of the United States and never have belonged to the states or counties. If the federal government wants to transfer or sell ownership of public lands there is a public process to do so. But the buyer must pay the market value of the land or its equivalent in a land transfer.

If counties or states want public federal lands they need to get out their checkbooks and buy it. Which they will not do, because states and counties cannot afford the sale price nor the cost of management.

This movement to turn federal public lands to state and local control are very much like the Bundys and the Montana Freemen. Just like the Freeman and the Bundys, they want the federal government to give them something very valuable for free, even though it belongs to all of us. All because, apparently, the Guv'mint is evil, and thieves, flimflam artists and counterfeiters are Patriots. At least that what Fox News told me.
 
Absolutely not. CPLs are not all created equal. For example, Virginia is a mail-order with no meaningful training and pretty light background. In contrast, Texas actually requires some training (insufficient training, IMHO).

The most interesting part to me is that such a rule is actually counter to the states rights philosophy the senator usually sticks with because it forces states to accept other licenses that may be inferior to their own. This allows one state to control another state to some extent. The better choice would actually be to Federalize the permit process as far as minimum requirements for the permits and then have states administer under those parameters. Then all state permits would meet at least a minimum expectation.

Are all driving licences created equal? Granted there is a base level of training required for all of them, but if you have a WY driver's licence, you can legally drive in downtown NYC.

I'll be happy if that bill has a single standard that all (or at least most) of the states can agree with that isn't a free for all. If not this bill is exactly what the tea baggers are railing against. It's eliminating the state's right to regulate what happens within it's borders. It's a bummer for Republicans. Pick an issue, gun rights or states rights.

I agree that it is a paradox. But I find it funny how many left wingers are freaking out about this one, being that VA just announced that they would not recognize any other CPL's. Michigan and NC only recognizes them if the holder actually lives in the issuing state.
 
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The whole thing is overreacting to someone else's overreaction. States lowered their requirements because they wanted to make a political statement (let's not be naive enough to think they actually care about your rights). Virginia reacted because to many states went to low. So it's a normal reaction, but it's also a political statement going the other way. Now the congress needs to overreact by forcing some new law because we can't have one or two democratic states one upping us. I'll be we see a couple other states enact new laws to not accept other states carry licenses and a few more states trying to loosen up the codes more to defend your rights. Pretty soon Kansas will require a two drink minimum before you open carry. That'll show them other states who's right!
 
Here in Indiana, we have gun bills in the House and Senate:

One measure would get rid of Indiana’s licensing requirement to carry a handgun. Another would allow guns at public universities and state office buildings. And a third would make it easier for repeat alcohol offenders to get a handgun license. (Emphasis mine.)

I repeat: this nation has an absurd fetish with guns.:not:
 
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