• Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, the built environment, planning adjacent topics, and anything else that comes to mind. No ads, no spam, and it's free. It's easy to join!

Planning: general šŸŒ‡ Random Planning Thoughts (and Photos) Deserving No Thread Of Their Own

So, I have ridiculously high pattern recognition (as a matter of fact my top strength on my strengthsfinder assessment is strategy which is basically pattern recognition with a fancy name but i digress) and when I was in business school everybody was LAUDING Amazon for their supply chain prowess and How Cool Amazon Is and I would rail about Amazon ad nausem. And everybody thought I was overreacting.

Why such a long intro.... and what does this have to do with Cyburbia and why this specific thread and not any other? Well I couldn't figure out where to put this comment, and its related to housing....

We have come full circle. Amazon is Sears. Hear me out...
1. amazon's website is basically the sears catalog but online
2. amazon built this incredible shipping network seemingly overnight, but, they basically copied Searss network
3. Amazon is now selling prefab houses Sears did it first AND did it well (that Sears catalog craftsman house was a gamechanger for black homeowners who couldnt get houses because of racism)
4. Amazon is building company towns........(you guessed it...sears did this; and dont let nobody tell you that all of the work AHEF is doing aint company towns in round about ways)

My question is, are these limited to certain markets? Some communities have categorical prohbitions on manufactured houses because of the schlock that came out of the 70s so I wonder how amazon cares about that and is preventing prefab house sales in those communities or is it a buyer beware situation
 
tnt1ne said:
Amazon is Sears
Click to expand...

Sears bought out Kmart about 20 years ago. Then Sears went away for good about ten years after that.

If pattern recognition can be deployed as a Magic 8 Ball, then Amazon will buy out Walmart in 2089 and then Amazon will go bankrupt in 2099.

In the year 2099 (cue alien Conehead Conan?), Alchemax, headed by Miguel Oā€™Hara, will be the dominant global, nay, galactic, retailer.

Interregnum pattern recognition: If Kmarts can spawn Kresges, then my Magic 8 Ball tells me Amazon will spawn Lilā€™ Rivers sometime before 2099.
 
tnt1ne said:
We have come full circle. Amazon is Sears.
Click to expand...
Funnily enough, Sears would have probably strangled Amazon in its crib had they been smart enough to return to their own catalog-retail roots. (Look at the experiences of Digi-Key and McMaster-Carr, who were both traditional catalog retailers that jumped on the eCommerce bandwagon early and wound up riding it to a not-insignificant degree of success.)
tnt1ne said:
My question is, are these limited to certain markets? Some communities have categorical prohbitions on manufactured houses because of the schlock that came out of the 70s so I wonder how amazon cares about that and is preventing prefab house sales in those communities or is it a buyer beware situation
Click to expand...
Blanket manufactured housing bans should be considered presumptive Fair Housing Act violations. We just don't have a HUD who's fearless enough to get in folks' faces about this.

(Really, the problem is with people using them as an excuse to create subdivisions with substandard services; even then, the basic mobile home park form factor shouldn't be tossed altogether as it's a fairly compact and accessible form of low-key urban development, at least in my book.)
 
UrbanUnPlanner said:
Funnily enough, Sears would have probably strangled Amazon in its crib had they been smart enough to return to their own catalog-retail roots. (Look at the experiences of Digi-Key and McMaster-Carr, who were both traditional catalog retailers that jumped on the eCommerce bandwagon early and wound up riding it to a not-insignificant degree of success.)

Blanket manufactured housing bans should be considered presumptive Fair Housing Act violations. We just don't have a HUD who's fearless enough to get in folks' faces about this.

(Really, the problem is with people using them as an excuse to create subdivisions with substandard services; even then, the basic mobile home park form factor shouldn't be tossed altogether as it's a fairly compact and accessible form of low-key urban development, at least in my book.)
Click to expand...
I regularly review codes across the country and I always check to see if MFH is allowed (first thing I do). Here are the top two things I see regularly
1. MFH and variants are expressly prohibited in all residential zones
2. MFH is only allowed as conditional uses on certain lots (and wouldn't you know it the lots that they are allowed on are scattered around the periphery of the community

but my question is really has any community expressly allowed and accepted these amazon MFH products? Anybody seen anything come out about them? are people using work arounds? one example that comes to mind is tiny house on wheels, that is "categorized" as an RV by the manufacturer with the IRS (so it doesn't get the HUD sticker) but sold as a manufactured tiny house?
 
tnt1ne said:
I regularly review codes across the country and I always check to see if MFH is allowed (first thing I do). Here are the top two things I see regularly
1. MFH and variants are expressly prohibited in all residential zones
2. MFH is only allowed as conditional uses on certain lots (and wouldn't you know it the lots that they are allowed on are scattered around the periphery of the community

but my question is really has any community expressly allowed and accepted these amazon MFH products? Anybody seen anything come out about them? are people using work arounds? one example that comes to mind is tiny house on wheels, that is "categorized" as an RV by the manufacturer with the IRS (so it doesn't get the HUD sticker) but sold as a manufactured tiny house?
Click to expand...
There are a lot of regulations around the rural south that allow MFH by right in single-family zones provided that they "are compatible/fit in/look like" adjacent single family. Its really hard to make a singlewide look like anything but a singlewide. I've seen a few doublewides that could potentially pass as stick built on first glance. A few of the TND people are trying to make MFH "cool". Their idea is that you really shouldn't try to make them look like a neighborhood house. Instead you get a better product by making a really good looking manufactured house. The ones Ive seen don't look bad.

My biggest problem with MFH is that they really aren't designed to last. They're constructed with a shelf life and it takes a lot of work to make them habitable beyond that shelf life. In a lot of MFH parks where the unit is owned by the park, they don't get repaired/replaced like they should. Plus they suck in a high wind event.
 
NC law requires each jurisdiction to allow MFH, but they don't say to what extent. So there is a residential district which permits MFH which appearance conditions, but they're allowed.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
There are a lot of regulations around the rural south that allow MFH by right in single-family zones provided that they "are compatible/fit in/look like" adjacent single family. Its really hard to make a singlewide look like anything but a singlewide. I've seen a few doublewides that could potentially pass as stick built on first glance.
Click to expand...
Where I am, we are similar -- HUD code stuff is allowed by-right 1/lot in resi zones provided it has a 2:12 pitch roof, uses compatible cladding materials, and is set on a permanent foundation. That's an interesting point on singlewides, though, although it seems that people really do not like flat-roofed site built houses much either...

bureaucrat#3 said:
My biggest problem with MFH is that they really aren't designed to last. They're constructed with a shelf life and it takes a lot of work to make them habitable beyond that shelf life.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the weight restrictions imposed by transportability really hurt the ability to build them more soundly without more drastic changes (like using CFS instead of wood for the superstructure).
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
There are a lot of regulations around the rural south that allow MFH by right in single-family zones provided that they "are compatible/fit in/look like" adjacent single family. Its really hard to make a singlewide look like anything but a singlewide. I've seen a few doublewides that could potentially pass as stick built on first glance. A few of the TND people are trying to make MFH "cool". Their idea is that you really shouldn't try to make them look like a neighborhood house. Instead you get a better product by making a really good looking manufactured house. The ones Ive seen don't look bad.

My biggest problem with MFH is that they really aren't designed to last. They're constructed with a shelf life and it takes a lot of work to make them habitable beyond that shelf life. In a lot of MFH parks where the unit is owned by the park, they don't get repaired/replaced like they should. Plus they suck in a high wind event.
Click to expand...
Single Wides and Double Wides are just one specific type of product.

Manufactured Housing today runs the gamut and you can find units that are very hard to distinguish between site built structures.
High wind, natural disasters can be mitigated especially since all new MFH units MUST be built up to the HUD code and generally many markets that deal with issues like that regularly such as Miami, California, etc have very strong building codes that mandate certain types of reinforcements be used when installing MFH.
Now do MFH companies produce double wide and single wide schlock, yes. but that's where design review comes into place to prevent that.
Honestly, at the end of the day if its safe, habitable, meets ICC building code mandates, and other local codes i do not care if people put in single wides. America has a housing crisis and we need housing now.

I am not a paid shill for MFH, I just believe that we as planners should be open to every single possible housing typology "regardless of how it looks" because we are in a housing crisis. And arbitrary "design guidelines" and "blanket prohibitions" on housing typologies because of what happened in the past stymies housing development, is elitist, and is keeping us from a country from moving forward.

thats just me though.
 
tnt1ne said:
Single Wides and Double Wides are just one specific type of product.

Manufactured Housing today runs the gamut and you can find units that are very hard to distinguish between site built structures.
High wind, natural disasters can be mitigated especially since all new MFH units MUST be built up to the HUD code and generally many markets that deal with issues like that regularly such as Miami, California, etc have very strong building codes that mandate certain types of reinforcements be used when installing MFH.
Now do MFH companies produce double wide and single wide schlock, yes. but that's where design review comes into place to prevent that.
Honestly, at the end of the day if its safe, habitable, meets ICC building code mandates, and other local codes i do not care if people put in single wides. America has a housing crisis and we need housing now.

I am not a paid shill for MFH, I just believe that we as planners should be open to every single possible housing typology "regardless of how it looks" because we are in a housing crisis. And arbitrary "design guidelines" and "blanket prohibitions" on housing typologies because of what happened in the past stymies housing development, is elitist, and is keeping us from a country from moving forward.

thats just me though.
Click to expand...
Whenever people start extolling the virtues of a "Tiny Home Park" I'm like, "what if they were all up to code and we called them singlewides?"
 
Would you want a bit-coin mining center in you fair community ?

I wouldn't after reading the latest Time Magazine article
https://time.com/6590155/bitcoin-mining-noise-texas/

Missouri lawmaker hopes to shield cryptocurrency mining from state and local regulation
missouriindependent.com

Missouri lawmaker hopes to shield cryptocurrency mining from state and local regulation ā€¢ Missouri Independent

A Missouri legislator wants to protect cryptocurrency miners with a bill to stop local governments from limiting their locations or noise.
missouriindependent.com missouriindependent.com

In US Crypto Mining Regulation, Where do the States Stand?
blockworks.co

In US Crypto Mining Regulation, Where do the States Stand?

Crypto mining bills in Arkansas and Montana now await governor signatures, while other states are at different stages of regulation
blockworks.co blockworks.co
 
Last edited:
JNA said:
Would you want a bit-coin mining center in you fair community ?

I wouldn't after reading the latest Time Magazine article
https://time.com/6590155/bitcoin-mining-noise-texas/

Missouri lawmaker hopes to shield cryptocurrency mining from state and local regulation
missouriindependent.com

Missouri lawmaker hopes to shield cryptocurrency mining from state and local regulation ā€¢ Missouri Independent

A Missouri legislator wants to protect cryptocurrency miners with a bill to stop local governments from limiting their locations or noise.
missouriindependent.com missouriindependent.com

In US Crypto Mining Regulation, Where do the States Stand?
blockworks.co

In US Crypto Mining Regulation, Where do the States Stand?

Crypto mining bills in Arkansas and Montana now await governor signatures, while other states are at different stages of regulation
blockworks.co blockworks.co
Click to expand...

B***h, please.

My community is a bitcoin mining center.
 
JNA said:
Is the noise that they have created that bad ?
Click to expand...
From the article you obviously are too busy in your retirement to read:
The rumble, it turned out, comes from the massive cooling fans that the facility runs to keep their computers from overheating. Data centers, like bitcoin mines, also run massive cooling fans that have drawn the ire of nearby residents.
Click to expand...
 
JNA said:
Would you want a bit-coin mining center in you fair community ?

I wouldn't after reading the latest Time Magazine article
https://time.com/6590155/bitcoin-mining-noise-texas/

Missouri lawmaker hopes to shield cryptocurrency mining from state and local regulation
missouriindependent.com

Missouri lawmaker hopes to shield cryptocurrency mining from state and local regulation ā€¢ Missouri Independent

A Missouri legislator wants to protect cryptocurrency miners with a bill to stop local governments from limiting their locations or noise.
missouriindependent.com missouriindependent.com

In US Crypto Mining Regulation, Where do the States Stand?
blockworks.co

In US Crypto Mining Regulation, Where do the States Stand?

Crypto mining bills in Arkansas and Montana now await governor signatures, while other states are at different stages of regulation
blockworks.co blockworks.co
Click to expand...
The electric utilities are falling all over themselves to land them. We have one in the hopper now. This one is in the industrial park so the noise shouldn't be an issue.
 
JNA said:
Is the noise that they have created that bad ?
Click to expand...

I've heard it described as sounding similar to tinnitus, except low-frequency (and audible to others). I've been around them, and it reminds me of being around the chillers you often find for HVAC equipment on large buildings except louder because of the far greater quantities of the cooling equipment. That low frequency carries pretty far as well, so the proximity impact is significant. Another comparison might be the distant rumble of a train from maybe 1/4 mile away, except constant duration. Maybe the sound of being near a freeway, but again lower frequency rumbling rather than the "whooshing" of vehicles. I would say you cannot enjoy the outdoors anywhere near them. I'm unsure whether the sound would transfer into the interior of a house if located nearby.
 
Thatā€™s an awful video, why the tiktokker post it when it not oriented correctly?

Anyways, around here theyā€™re called land banks and they are generally praised because these entities can dispose of abandoned properties in a way that, theoretically, serves the public good. They can be strategic in, uh, a way that resembles planning (imagine that) with an eye to the future. The alternative is to have faceless indifferent bureacrats from the state capitol pretend to care and doā€¦ something? With land banks, we at least have a local say about the problem.
 
Don't know about your lot, but my city holds land for several reasons. We plan on building affordable housing there some day or a park or the giant patch of residential land we bought to get people to move away from the expanded airport. That we sell, but not to residential. Also understand that it's difficult for a city to sell land. It has to be done at auction so if there is some project we like and want to sell the land to that person, I hope they can out bid everyone. I've seen that fail and the city loses what might have been a nice project to some crappy apartments no one wanted.
 
I have worked with Community Reinvestment groups in the Salt Lake area to use city and/or RDA owned land and put it in a Community Land Trust. The idea being to allow building on the land (townhomes, houses, etc.) but the trust holds the land itself, removing that cost from the final equation. Around here that raw land cost is huge. The operation of the land trust gets a little complex, but it works. It creates more affordable housing because the trust limits buyers by income restrictions, and those folks come in needing only a 300K loan (or whatever) to buy a home that otherwise would cost 500K or 600K with the land costs. When and if they leave, they can have earned equity on the building, but not the land. I like the Community Land Trust angle. We had some success with it.
 
Planetizen: Considering Mindfulness as an Urban Planner's Tool
Charles Wolfe argues for using strategies of mindfulness meditation such as "observation, and appreciation of everyday city life, and associated active participation" as methods to "enhance urban livability and community well-being." He fleshes out the idea in an associated Substack post. Considering and publishing images of city life can obviously change the way we think about human places, but don't translate directly to policy or built environment change. I like the idea of new sets of rules/approaches to imagining things as a way to generate new ideas, but most of these good ideas leave the translation into policy implicit.

Some more sets of rules for consideration:
Ma in architecture
Flaneury / Chris Arnade of Chris Arnade Walks the World

Any favoured recommendations for constrained approaches to the built environment?
Any secrets to making the translation of perception to policy explicit?
 
tnt1ne said:
So, I have ridiculously high pattern recognition (as a matter of fact my top strength on my strengthsfinder assessment is strategy which is basically pattern recognition with a fancy name but i digress) and when I was in business school everybody was LAUDING Amazon for their supply chain prowess and How Cool Amazon Is and I would rail about Amazon ad nausem. And everybody thought I was overreacting.

Why such a long intro.... and what does this have to do with Cyburbia and why this specific thread and not any other? Well I couldn't figure out where to put this comment, and its related to housing....

We have come full circle. Amazon is Sears. Hear me out...
1. amazon's website is basically the sears catalog but online
2. amazon built this incredible shipping network seemingly overnight, but, they basically copied Searss network
3. Amazon is now selling prefab houses Sears did it first AND did it well (that Sears catalog craftsman house was a gamechanger for black homeowners who couldnt get houses because of racism)
4. Amazon is building company towns........(you guessed it...sears did this; and dont let nobody tell you that all of the work AHEF is doing aint company towns in round about ways)

My question is, are these limited to certain markets? Some communities have categorical prohbitions on manufactured houses because of the schlock that came out of the 70s so I wonder how amazon cares about that and is preventing prefab house sales in those communities or is it a buyer beware situation
Click to expand...
Sorry I have missed these stitches on this thread. I think you could have posted under current regs or something.
Manufactured housing is HUD monitored and stamped for good reasons, mostly in interest of consumer protection in light of inconsistent regs and codes across state lines. My state, GA, adopts codes statewide and also monitors what it calls "Industrialized buildings", also called "modular". That class of building includes homes and offices and these little hurry up classrooms for schools needing instant space.
Your post appears to say manufactured building has attained some kind of higher status.
Has it really?
 
joscoffee said:
Planetizen: Considering Mindfulness as an Urban Planner's Tool
Charles Wolfe argues for using strategies of mindfulness meditation such as "observation, and appreciation of everyday city life, and associated active participation" as methods to "enhance urban livability and community well-being." He fleshes out the idea in an associated Substack post. Considering and publishing images of city life can obviously change the way we think about human places, but don't translate directly to policy or built environment change. I like the idea of new sets of rules/approaches to imagining things as a way to generate new ideas, but most of these good ideas leave the translation into policy implicit.

Some more sets of rules for consideration:
Ma in architecture
Flaneury / Chris Arnade of Chris Arnade Walks the World

Any favoured recommendations for constrained approaches to the built environment?
Any secrets to making the translation of perception to policy explicit?
Click to expand...

joscoffee said:
Encourage a notable shift in how we perceive and interact with our urban environments.
Click to expand...
Laugh me right out the door.

Try making this video mandatory for those tenting outside homeless shelters that are too booked to offer them a bed.

If they had more awareness of the urban environment and it's intangible benefits that cold hard ground or sidewalk might have more meaning for them.
 
fringe said:
Although Iā€™ve not used the term in the past, the idea of urban mindfulness is implicit in my previous writing.
Click to expand...
Interested to hear more!

But really, that experience certainly creates the "awareness and appreciation for the intricacies of city life" that Wolfe writes is a top goal in the article... Maybe he should hire some consultants from among people who have a more immediate perception of things.
These are fun ideas for thinking about things in a different way, but not very useful for actually changing things on the ground as we note.
 
Planit said:
I may have to use several of these urban planning memes in future presentations

www.boredpanda.com

ā€œClassic Urban Planningā€: 30 Spot-On Memes That Highlight The Absurdity Of Modern City Planning

Itā€™s a Facebook group for and about the planners of urban spaces. They advocate for better city infrastructure and better urban planning solutions through humor and memes.
www.boredpanda.com www.boredpanda.com
Click to expand...
Do we have a planning memes thread anywhere? I have a bunch saved up from over the years and have used them for lots of trainings and slide shows.
emailattachment.png
 
Planit said:
You are granted Planning Permission. You build the house. WAIT Its not your land?!?!??!?!

www.mirror.co.uk

Couple forced to demolish Ā£100,000 home extension - despite planning permission

Wayne and Natalie Noke gained permission to build a living space for their elderly parents at their home in Bartley, Hampshire - but unbeknown to them, there was a major catch
www.mirror.co.uk www.mirror.co.uk
Click to expand...
We don't verify ownership and we rely on the representations of owners about where property lines are when reviewing permit applications- but the responsibility is on the owner to get it right...

The really fun one is porches and patios on condos. Hell if I'm going to navigate the ins and outs of every association's rules about what can and cannot happen on common land/areas of exclusive use etc. There's a big disclaimer on our permit about this.
 
My wife's sister and her husband recently sold their house. It was next door to her hubby's parents and in fact was the same parcel in the past. Their home was originally built as a (very large, three story) workshop back in 1930. When they divided the parcel, it ran very close to the back of the house; so close that their smallish wooden patio deck was actually over the line. They had talked with his family about signing over some of that land to make the deck legally on their property, but never did, and by the time they sold the house, family relations had cooled. So they had to trim the deck to sell the house (see lower left).

7065d31bd3502c0413d85d554fca810f-uncropped_scaled_within_1536_1152.jpeg
 
Early last week, I met with a "developer/investor" who has done a ton of great projects, and looking to do work out in our area and also help with City projects along the way. The discussion bordered on being too good to be true, but also worthwhile to investigate further - my Econ Dev guy was very excited. We mentioned that we're looking to design/build a library, and they said they would be willing to help out and could even come up with some design ideas as a show of their partnership. Long story short, I got several AI images of libraries, complete with the typical AI misspelled words and stairways that go nowhere. That's a first for me.
 
arcplans said:
i am deeply troubled by people's ability of reading comprehension.. especially boomers when it comes to land development.
Click to expand...
Variance request criteria (#3 of 6): "The request for a variance is not based exclusively upon a desire of the owner or occupant for increased financial gain from the use of the property, or to reduce a personal financial hardship".

Applicant cover letter responding to the six criteria in five numbered sections: "I requesting variance based on desire for increased financial gain as my property will be worth less if I do not get it."

:| :indifferrent:
 
Just read an article about a fast growing town across the lake from us. It was an interview with the new mayor who basically blames the former Planning Director for all the town's growing pain woes. I know the guy and he was just doing what the previous council wanted, but I guess you gotta blame someone.
 
Planit said:
Just read an article about a fast growing town across the lake from us. It was an interview with the new mayor who basically blames the former Planning Director for all the town's growing pain woes. I know the guy and he was just doing what the previous council wanted, but I guess you gotta blame someone.
Click to expand...
That's true. But I always dislike it when new administration calls out the former" planning director (or whomever) who isn't there to defend the positions and projects, etc., well then I think it's intellectually VERY lazy. Say things like "I'm concerned that we may have been pursuing the wrong goals" or "I think we should re-focus on..." It's adulthood. If you're going to be the Mayor, you need to learn how to do it.
 
Planit said:
Just read an article about a fast growing town across the lake from us. It was an interview with the new mayor who basically blames the former Planning Director for all the town's growing pain woes. I know the guy and he was just doing what the previous council wanted, but I guess you gotta blame someone.
Click to expand...
Like any politician. Place blame elsewhere; not on the politicians who are the responsible party.
 
Unfortunately capitalism would develop the other 96% into either apartments or a shopping center or something...
 
Doohickie said:
My wife's sister and her husband recently sold their house. It was next door to her hubby's parents and in fact was the same parcel in the past. Their home was originally built as a (very large, three story) workshop back in 1930. When they divided the parcel, it ran very close to the back of the house; so close that their smallish wooden patio deck was actually over the line. They had talked with his family about signing over some of that land to make the deck legally on their property, but never did, and by the time they sold the house, family relations had cooled. So they had to trim the deck to sell the house (see lower left).

7065d31bd3502c0413d85d554fca810f-uncropped_scaled_within_1536_1152.jpeg
Click to expand...
I would think that would fall under adverse possession at that point . . .

Jim
 
Back
Top