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Planning: general 🌇 Random Planning Thoughts (and Photos) Deserving No Thread Of Their Own

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mendelman said:
It's one of several generally accepted theoretical budgeting methods (ie. zero-based, incremental, etc.).

This method is that you start your budget drafting at zero each cycle which requires you to examine every part of the budget's purpose, intent and outcome.

We too often do major zoning updates in an incremental way - expand on this, reduce that, add this - but zoning is such a complex function and has such huge potential for unintended consequences (both good and bad) that we should either blow up the existing and start completely new or do targeted and precision changes here and there (over many cycles/years) that permit us to positively fiddle with an existing zoning code while being able to handle calibration well and increase the avoidance of unintended consequences.

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;)
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The problem with this is the same problem most places experience with zero based budgeting. It can lead to radical and abrupt change. Thats fine from a theoretical standpoint, but it can lead to chaos in implementation. Plus people don't respond well to big wholesale changes, it would drive NIMBYs and others crazy. It can be done and make sense in so many ways, but it takes lots of education and hard work. I don't think most cities have the political will for it.

That being said, I'm hoping to completely junk my 1980s zoning ordinance soon.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
The problem with this is the same problem most places experience with zero based budgeting. It can lead to radical and abrupt change. Thats fine from a theoretical standpoint, but it can lead to chaos in implementation. Plus people don't respond well to big wholesale changes, it would drive NIMBYs and others crazy. It can be done and make sense in so many ways, but it takes lots of education and hard work. I don't think most cities have the political will for it.

That being said, I'm hoping to completely junk my 1980s zoning ordinance soon.
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I agree. That's why I much prefer a long-haul process with cycles of specific and targeted zoning changes.

Wholesale change never really works in a proactive manner.
 
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mendelman said:
I agree. That's why I much prefer the long haul process with cycles of specific and targeted zoning updates.

Wholesale change never really works in a proactive manner.
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This whole discussion is helpful to me, so thank to all. It's helped me organize my own thinking about it, which was SORELY needed on my part. Been a while since I took the time to really think through the big picture and how my work is aligning (or not aligning, as the case may be.)
 
DVD said:
I'm going to say no. Pickleball is a fad.
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If we look at dying malls as some kind of canary, then what is so wrong with actually doing something to convince the canary to fly back, maybe at least for a short stop, and who knows, maybe other species might like what the canary is doing and start nests of their own?
 
Pickleball courts and things like that are definitely canaries in a dying mall. I have no problem with them flying around. It brings some life. It's just that we all know the poor bird is gonna die sometime.
 
Wannaplan? said:
If we look at dying malls as some kind of canary, then what is so wrong with actually doing something to convince the canary to fly back, maybe at least for a short stop, and who knows, maybe other species might like what the canary is doing and start nests of their own?
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Bbc Bird GIF by PBS
 
Doohickie said:
Bbc Bird GIF by PBS
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:scratchinghead:

Huh?

What is that GIF a reference to? It feels like you think my response was a shitty one. I mean, if that is the case, then you are rude and deeply cynical. I could be wrong, for sure. You needn't respond to this, but know that I really do want to understand your position.
 
I'm not sure what I was saying. I was looking for a bird gif in a certain context but then I saw a bird pooping and my inner 13-year-old said "Haha that bird is pooping!" and I clicked it. I wasn't really disagreeing with your point I don't think. But I was traumatized by the Buffalo Bills last night and I can't remember anything before that.
 
I think dying malls and dying big boxes will go through these reuse throes sometimes but ultimately the form (esp. big box) is just really hard to adapt and even when you do, it's not going to fit any kind of urban fabric.

Pickleball in 20 years will sound about as familiar as Tae Bo.
 
General retail land uses are going empty all over the nation (in strong, neutral and weak markets) because we subconsciously, as a society, realize we 'all' have more than enough stuff and we don't need to acquire more.

We just haven't admitted this consciously yet.

But we desperately need more housing, housing, housing but everyone freaks about it, especially the school districts.
 
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mendelman said:
General retail land uses are going empty all over the nation (in strong, neutral and weak markets) because we subconsciously, as a society, realize we 'all' have more than enough stuff and we don't need to acquire more.

But we desperately need more housing, housing, housing but everyone freaks about it, especially the school districts.
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I have yet to see an adaptation of a mid or big box in my area that lasts more than a few years. There may be a handful of exceptions. Not interested, because an exception is not useful, right? School districts, ugh. At my last gig, we were making some progress with a really forward-thinking Superintendent and a facilities planner who thought like a city planner, and met with us monthly just to make sure he was up on what was happening on the development side and stayed ahead. Smart dude.

Wannaplan? said:
...must... resist... making... reference to... gymkata
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I spit out my diet dew reading this! I read your screenplay, you magnificent bastard!
 
Faust_Motel said:
ultimately the form (esp. big box) is just really hard to adapt and even when you do, it's not going to fit any kind of urban fabric.
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A local larger supermarket was converted over to: A craft tap room, a coffee shop, a leased work space, a camera shop, a print shop, a gym and a toll road office. It's in a suburban/urban area and it actually works pretty well. If the structure is sound it can be well suited for re-use as something other than a big box store.
 
Doohickie said:
A local larger supermarket was converted over to: A craft tap room, a coffee shop, a leased work space, a camera shop, a print shop, a gym and a toll road office. It's in a suburban/urban area and it actually works pretty well. If the structure is sound it can be well suited for re-use as something other than a big box store.
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To the exception point: I think what you've described here is so much better than the successful conversions I've seen. So much. Still, Faust's point about the form and the urban fabric is, to me, the larger issue. In the conversions I've seen, you're still left with the overload of parking, in many cases an almost comical setback to the street frontage, etc. Still, an active use is better than the vacant building, right?

Except...I sometimes get lost in this thought that all truth can be found in the original Jurassic Park movie. Allow me to quote Jeff Goldblum, with substitutions: "Big Boxes as a design form had their shot, and nature SELECTED them for extinction." Maybe, as painful as it is and as long as it takes, by hoping for their adaptation we are prolonging a terrible form, and we should just let it die, and stop taking up that space. It will take longer than we want, and our officials don't want vacant buildings, but that FORM will remain even longer as we drag out its extinction.

Just a thought. Hard sell for the public, but a thought.
 
Wannaplan? said:
...must... resist... making... reference to... gymkata
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I was trying to describe gymkata to my daughter just last week. An 8 year old's imagination could not comprehend.

We've had a few big box transition to training gyms for gymnastics and baseball. They've been fairly successful. I let one that was run down flip to climate control which I don't love but they cleaned up and manage the property. We've got a mini convention space in one and churches in most of the rest right now. All but one are full because we're booming. I'd hate to see them during lean years. The one that struggles is in a tucked away space. Its an old outlet center with a DMV, a church, a dance studio, pawn (gun) shop, and a rotating cast of retailers.

Our nearby mall has been circling the drain for 20 years. It's not near the interstate like the newer power center. Most of the chain stores have either died or moved to the newer center. For a while the local boutiques were coming in there, but they've all moved to one of the nearby downtowns. What remains are some region discount retailers, Hallmark, Bath and Body, and some jewelers. It's odd because the place looks busy from the outside. A company out of GA that buys old malls bought it a few years ago and tried to clean it up. The couldn't stop the hemorrhaging inside, but have done a good job of filling up all of the underutilized parking areas. They've probably added six or so decent restaurants or fast-food on the perimeter. I'm sure more people visit the Krispy Kreme and Chic-fil-a than the actual mall building on a daily basis.
 
ursus said:
To the exception point: I think what you've described here is so much better than the successful conversions I've seen. So much. Still, Faust's point about the form and the urban fabric is, to me, the larger issue. In the conversions I've seen, you're still left with the overload of parking, in many cases an almost comical setback to the street frontage, etc. Still, an active use is better than the vacant building, right?

Except...I sometimes get lost in this thought that all truth can be found in the original Jurassic Park movie. Allow me to quote Jeff Goldblum, with substitutions: "Big Boxes as a design form had their shot, and nature SELECTED them for extinction." Maybe, as painful as it is and as long as it takes, by hoping for their adaptation we are prolonging a terrible form, and we should just let it die, and stop taking up that space. It will take longer than we want, and our officials don't want vacant buildings, but that FORM will remain even longer as we drag out its extinction.

Just a thought. Hard sell for the public, but a thought.
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I have some that can just die- they are on the fringes and it wouldn't hurt anything if they turned into shipping depots or warehouses. Others are a blot on what could otherwise happen as we get a more urban infill "fabric." To make matters worse they were built on sloped by doing massive cut 'n fill. One is a mid-box in an otherwise successful shopping center- that one would be a terrific food hall/local vendor place but we'd need to intervene to get all the noncompetes out of their leases (don't get me started on how much THOSE undermine everything!)
 
ursus said:
In the conversions I've seen, you're still left with the overload of parking, in many cases an almost comical setback to the street frontage, etc. Still, an active use is better than the vacant building, right?
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A fair point and this conversion still includes the setback. It was somewhat mitigated when nearly half the parking lot was developed as a Race Trac gas station/convenience store.
 
I was basically asked if we had secret plans to put a road through this guys home. I am sure that the fact that I told the guy that I wasn't aware of it did nothing to reassure him.
 
"It is the Court's opinion that the roadway does not represent a taking per se, as is argued by Mr. Bigowl Client, but only a taking in appearance. During review of the lower court's decision, this Court discovered schematics conclusively showing that the roadway merely passed through the appellant's guest room at the rear of the house, a room called by the appellant a 'wretched hive of scum and villainy', in reference to its most frequent occupant, his mother-in-law. As such, the construction of the roadway remedies a legitimate nuisance to the public safety by converting a "black hole as worthless as the bacterial colony of organisma filling it" disclaimed as "hazardous to psychological wellbeing and moral comfort" into a productive public purpose while providing more value to Mr. Bigowl Client than the original use of the property. The decision of the lower court is hereby reversed."
 
joscoffee said:
"It is the Court's opinion that the roadway does not represent a taking per se, as is argued by Mr. Bigowl Client, but only a taking in appearance. During review of the lower court's decision, this Court discovered schematics conclusively showing that the roadway merely passed through the appellant's guest room at the rear of the house, a room called by the appellant a 'wretched hive of scum and villainy', in reference to its most frequent occupant, his mother-in-law. As such, the construction of the roadway remedies a legitimate nuisance to the public safety by converting a "black hole as worthless as the bacterial colony of organisma filling it" disclaimed as "hazardous to psychological wellbeing and moral comfort" into a productive public purpose while providing more value to Mr. Bigowl Client than the original use of the property. The decision of the lower court is hereby reversed."
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Post. Of. The. Day!

:smokingcigar: :scotch:
 
I'm shocked that we still have two old school indoor malls operating. Both in suburbia. One near me and the other on the opposite side of town. The one near me has been holding on strong, but I'm seeing the signs of the pooping bird. There's a shooting gallery, a little arcade, a tattoo place and some yard art junk store. You know, things that would never be able to afford normal mall rent, but because the place is dying they made deals to fill the space.
 
DVD said:
There's a shooting gallery, a little arcade, a tattoo place and some yard art junk store. You know, things that would never be able to afford normal mall rent, but because the place is dying they made deals to fill the space.
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When one of the pad sites that used to be fast-casual dining is converted to a Beto's, you're past the point of no return. All builders in the west are building for Beto's - they just don't know it yet.
 
ursus said:
When one of the pad sites that used to be fast-casual dining is converted to a Beto's, you're past the point of no return. All builders in the west are building for Beto's - they just don't know it yet.
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In our area it's bertos, just add your name to bertos and make it a sketchy fast food mexican place and you've got it.
 
DVD said:
In our area it's bertos, just add your name to bertos and make it a sketchy fast food mexican place and you've got it.
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And to be clear, the food is fantastic. Sketchy, yes, but the rolled tacos, baby! Sometimes my boys and I will get like three orders of the rolled tacos when we're going to catch up on whatever Marvel or Star Wars stuff we're behind on. Also their Coke is always good.

Around here, they're all slightly different names but the exact same menu and have taken over whatever place: old Radio Shack, Starbucks - whatever. There are Alberto's, Beto's (most common) Floriberto's, Gilberto's, Gualberto's, Rancheritos, Giliberto's, and probably three I'm forgetting. I mean they are literally everywhere.
 
ursus said:
And to be clear, the food is fantastic. Sketchy, yes, but the rolled tacos, baby! Sometimes my boys and I will get like three orders of the rolled tacos when we're going to catch up on whatever Marvel or Star Wars stuff we're behind on. Also their Coke is always good.

Around here, they're all slightly different names but the exact same menu and have taken over whatever place: old Radio Shack, Starbucks - whatever. There are Alberto's, Beto's (most common) Floriberto's, Gilberto's, Gualberto's, Rancheritos, Giliberto's, and probably three I'm forgetting. I mean they are literally everywhere.
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I had a near religious experience at the Gilberto's drive-thru in Moab. The flavor.

One major failing of Northern New England is the almost complete dearth of good cheap Mexican.

/But if you go to the Cape, in Hyannis is Mi Pueblo. Go there.
 
ursus said:
And to be clear, the food is fantastic. Sketchy, yes, but the rolled tacos, baby! Sometimes my boys and I will get like three orders of the rolled tacos when we're going to catch up on whatever Marvel or Star Wars stuff we're behind on. Also their Coke is always good.

Around here, they're all slightly different names but the exact same menu and have taken over whatever place: old Radio Shack, Starbucks - whatever. There are Alberto's, Beto's (most common) Floriberto's, Gilberto's, Gualberto's, Rancheritos, Giliberto's, and probably three I'm forgetting. I mean they are literally everywhere.
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That's the place. Our most common is Filberto's, but we have some of the other cousins too and yes, the rolled tacos are awesome!
 
Faust_Motel said:
I had a near religious experience at the Gilberto's drive-thru in Moab. The flavor.

One major failing of Northern New England is the almost complete dearth of good cheap Mexican.

/But if you go to the Cape, in Hyannis is Mi Pueblo. Go there.
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Maybe that's what Republican governors are actually trying to do when the send immigrants to the northeast.
 
78rpm said:
Awww....
Let us weep for the delicate :snowflake:
who just couldn't take being
community development director in Aspen, Colorado.


www.aspendailynews.com

Aspen’s community development director resigns

Phillip Supino leaves after being on administrative leave
www.aspendailynews.com www.aspendailynews.com
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Trying to understand your angle of your post. Those on this site are overwhelmingly pro-planning and support those in the field. Many of us have been in this guys position because some council member got their underoos in a wad and acted as dictator of the community. Your post comes across as mocking this guy, without any of us knowing the backstory, so help me (and others?) understand what you mean. Maybe too early in the AM and my coffee has not kicked in yet.
 
I went down a rabbit hole of how Aspen handles deed restricted property when the article mentioned that the former PD has until 2024 to be out of his house. Whatever led to his separation from the City, adding the issue of your housing is directly tied to your job is a whole other issue.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
I went down a rabbit hole of how Aspen handles deed restricted property when the article mentioned that the former PD has until 2024 to be out of his house. Whatever led to his separation from the City, adding the issue of your housing is directly tied to your job is a whole other issue.
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I had heard that come CO cities provide housing since otherwise employees can't afford to live in the areas they serve. Is that true based on what you read?
 
joscoffee said:
I had heard that come CO cities provide housing since otherwise employees can't afford to live in the areas they serve. Is that true based on what you read?
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Our county hired a planner that had nowhere to live a dozen years ago. Unbeknownst to officialdom or anyone else he slept under his desk for many weeks. He was born of Vietnamese parents and an overboard Christian. Xenophobic locals sought and got his termination before six months probation was up.
 
That's sad, I hope he's doing well. Tough situation.
When I worked at the university, we had a tenured prof who was known to have slept in the office (not due to not having a house - his house was great) because the janitorial staff complained about his boxers on the floor. So many great stories from the university
 
It's going to be sad in a few years when this whole section of Miami, with all it's historic Art Deco architecture, gets swallowed by the Atlantic Ocean

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
SlaveToTheGrind said:
Trying to understand your angle of your post. Those on this site are overwhelmingly pro-planning and support those in the field. Many of us have been in this guys position because some council member got their underoos in a wad and acted as dictator of the community. Your post comes across as mocking this guy, without any of us knowing the backstory, so help me (and others?) understand what you mean. Maybe too early in the AM and my coffee has not kicked in yet.
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Coulda been anything- but I can only imagine there are a lot of super-wealthy people with really high expectations (but also who don't want to be regulated) in Aspen. It's probably a tougher place than most to do the job.
 

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Wannaplan? said:
Does that include slums and tent villages for the homeless?
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See "urban". In the other patterns the unhoused will simply be sent back to "urban". Ha! But seriously, in SLC we just approved some individual shelters that are a little better than tents, which are being placed on large tracts of city owned land. They have power, water, heating and cooling. You have to use a communal restroom on the site, but you can lock your door. Police, health services, etc. are directed to have frequent visits to the sites. I've been impressed as the mayor has rolled it all out. Hand to god, she is a brave mofo to take this all on the way she has.

SLC is hiring a development review planner (add on the national APA job board) if anybody is interested in living in a beautiful valley and working for a brave mofo woman mayor. :)
 
ursus said:
...if anybody is interested in living in a beautiful valley and working for a brave mofo woman mayor. :)
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You're running out of 'water'...so...no thanks. I'm happy here with my Great Lakes fresh water reservoir.
 
mendelman said:
You're running out of 'water'...so...no thanks. I'm happy here with my Great Lakes fresh water reservoir.
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Can't argue that. Cannot argue that. (sadly shakes head, big hair shifting slowly side to side)
 
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