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DId I waste two years getting a geography degree?

rover

rover

Cyburbian
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I'm looking for some advice.
This past May I graduated with an MA in Geography and a Certificate in GIS.
Although I have the GIS Certificate, I only took 2 GIS courses, and hated it. This just was not my forte, I sucked it up, got the B, but knew that GIS is not my strength.

I went into Geography because suburban sprawl, interstate highways, mass transit issues all were big interests of mine as was demography. Undergrad I had a liberal arts degree in another subject. I choose Geography because I felt I could do planning but also demography whereas planning I saw as more limited.

I didn't take many quantitative courses. I took stuff like Regional Development and Policy/Population Geography as opposed to more complicated GIS or Statistical classes. I am very comfortable with descriptive statistics but not well versed or having a background in statistics.

I figured I could fit in doing transportation/environmental planning or demography for a metropolitan regional planning agency.
I thought perhaps the Federal Government in DOT/Census too.
It's 7 months later, never did I dream it would be this hard to find work.

Is there a niche for a descriptive statistics person with my quant/GIS skills and if so where? Or am I obsolete and did I just waste two years on a worthless degree?
I'm really starting think, a Geography degree unless you have GIS skills is a history degree and will never translate into a successful career.
 
I see a planning degree as an easier way to get in the door for descriptive statistics than a geography degree. Most MPO or County governments are going to hire a planner to not only do the plan process but also the research. In this economy multi-tasking is essential, and unfortunately niches are just not as prevelant as before.

Making yourself as marketable as possible is really important in this economy. Painting yourself into a corner, is going to make the job hunt much more difficult. Good luck.
 
rover said:
I'm really starting think, a Geography degree unless you have GIS skills is a history degree and will never translate into a successful career.
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Relax, kid - I have two history degrees and a successful planning career. :h:
 
This recession doesn't take well to generalist planners. I've seen plenty of students/recent graduates who don't want to hunker down and learn the nuts and bolts: would-be designers who don't want to take a class on site design or hand-renderings, would-be mapmakers who don't want to learn GIS, would-be transportation planners who don't want to take a math course or two, etc. Yeah, you can get an MUD, geography degree, or tranportation planning degree, but that is only the first step. You'll be up against the people who DO have that training/internship experience already.

Any planner that earned his/her degree (bachelors or masters) in the past 10 years must be capable of learning and adapting to everchanging technology and concepts. That's expected.
 
I have an undergrad in public administration and a graduate degree in geography. My career has been mostly within the economic development side of planning, with some work in the development sector. Demographic/economic analysis and strategy formulation have always been my forte. I seldom use more than descriptive statistics, although it is necessary to know how to build models for things like population projections. The strategy part is also important and interrelated - to know what information is important, and to know how to use it. I see too many plans or studies with a "data dump" of irrelevant information. If it has no meaning, do not put it in. If it has meaning, make sure it is accurate and explain why it is significant. (I came across a business incubation feasibility study last night. The company had plenty of population information in the report. Irrelevant. What about business formation and composition? Not addressed. It amounted to "you have high unemployment and low income, so start a business incubator". This is not feasibility! Uh, the researcher has a PhD.) Anyway, if you know how to find, analyze, and employ information, you can go far.

Getting a job is going to be tough for anyone right now. Yes, I do think geographers have it harder than others. If you were a mechanical engineer you would have it easier. But as it is, you should not be in much worse shape than someone with a planning degree. I always tell people to expand their search, and ce sure to look at jobs like downtown/main street manager positions. Many of your skills will be employed, although you will also have to do some work you may not enjoy, like fundraising and coordinating events. I used such a position to launch my post grad career, moving from there to a community development director position that had me doing planning and economic development. You may be stuck in a small town with a low salary for a year or two, but you can move on.
 
It's a very competitive economy right now with so many qualified applicants, so it is best to sell all the strengths you have that you can bring to a planning or other geography-related job. Don't sell yourself short. GIS, statistics, demography...these are all valuable traits and skills that I think any employer would want in a planner, in addition to many others. So market these skills and any other skills you have.

I really don't think you are losing out by choosing geography...it's all what you do with it and how you present yourself. Also, I don't know if you have any internship experience or not, but I think experience is key in such a competitive field. If you don't have any whatsoever, I guarantee you will be passed up a lot more.

I think the people that are getting what few planning jobs there are to be had right now are the people that have master's+experience, especially those with graduate degrees in planning and several years of experience. I have the experience, but I lack the graduate degree at the moment. I have been looking for about 10 months now. So, don't worry, you're not alone.
 
rover said:
It's 7 months later, never did I dream it would be this hard to find work.
Click to expand...

You and two years' worth of graduates. I really don't think the degree choice is the issue here. Whether you want to paint yourself into a niche is moot at this point, you need to work at anything you can get.
 
No time in college is wasted, so long as you went to kick-ass parties.

Seriously, I really haven't found much use for the quantative analysis, statistics or even field methods courses I took in college. Most of what I learned to do my job I learned after I left the university. Of course more GIS training would have been helpful.

Planners tend to have less than traditional educational backgrounds. Sometimes I think it is the non-planning education and experience that you acquire that makes you a better planner.
 
I did a dual degree in Geography and Urban Studies. I am AICP and been gainfully employed for close to 20 years. Don't worry.
 
DetroitPlanner said:
I did a dual degree in Geography and Urban Studies. I am AICP and been gainfully employed for close to 20 years. Don't worry.
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With all due respect, that's easy to say don't worry, but when you graduate in the worst recession since the Great Depression, it's very hard to stay optimistic for so long. Eventually it all comes down to putting food on the table. I'm lucky to be working right now, but if I graduated college only a fews after I did, I doubt I would have the patience to wait it out for too long before I picked a completely different path.
 
nrschmid said:
With all due respect, that's easy to say don't worry, but when you graduate in the worst recession since the Great Depression, it's very hard to stay optimistic for so long. Eventually it all comes down to putting food on the table. I'm lucky to be working right now, but if I graduated college only a fews after I did, I doubt I would have the patience to wait it out for too long before I picked a completely different path.
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As an employed planner, I would not suggest that people pursue a career in planning, especially as a generalist planner. If you're going to be a planner, you better become highly specialized. Or be happy with having to travel across the country to find work.

People may think it's an admirable profession, but at the end of the day, it's probably not worth it.

Granted, in 5 years, the outlook for the profession could be vastly different. But as of today, I tell people to run away from planning, run far away.
 
btrage said:
As an employed planner, I would not suggest that people pursue a career in planning, especially as a generalist planner. If you're going to be a planner, you better become highly specialized. Or be happy with having to travel across the country to find work....But as of today, I tell people to run away from planning, run far away.
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Well said.

The clear thing that we have to tell prospects is, IME, against why so many idealists come into the profession: planning gets done when lots of cr*p gets built. No building, no planning. When do you think the market will clear and cr*ppy subdivisions start getting slapped up again? If you think it is 1-2 years, you haven't done enough research.

There! I might make that a keyboard macro for standard reply #2 to standard question #1 on this board.

/[grumpy blunt mood today]
 
My suggestion would also be, once and if you do get hired, to find a niche. Learn something or get really good at something that nobody else in your office or firm knows much about. You need to become indispensable. I did it by becoming the "numbers/research guy" who does all the fiscal impact analyses, does development projections, and knows the ins and outs of TIF and Enterprise Zones.

Better yet, do this even before you get hired and try to use that as a selling point on your resume and in interviews.
 
I say you didn't waste your time. Geography offers many interesting perspectives on the world, and knowing where you are is very important in life.:)

However, you may well be wasting your time now if you're sitting around wondering if you should have chosen another major. Get to work. If you need to support yourself, get a job, get any kind of job, in the community or the type of community where you would like to work. Then find an internship or a volunteer gig of some sort.

Most planning departments are terrible at using volunteers, unless you mean planning commissioners or board of zoning appeals, but really try for an internship even if it's unpaid. An internship gives you experience, no matter how thin, and a broader perspective. You seem to have learned already some things you like and don't like, so keep learning and experimenting.

Don't worry so much about outfitting yourself once for life, and especially not for life as a planner. The amount of change in the field over a 20 or 30-year period is enormous, so just get into something you like now and be prepared to grow and change, and to change careers completely if need be.
 
Thank you guys for your help and suggestions.
I am relieved because if I understand you correctly:

1) I didn't waste my time/money/schooling in Geography. My thinking of Geography as means for planning or planning related field was solid.
2) People like, descriptive statistics, generalists, qualitative types, we aren't useless history majors
3) In other words...it's not me or my skillset...I didn't choose a bad path it's....

The bad news
1) The problem is that the economy stinks, nothing is being built, and so there is no demand, rather downsizing for planner.
2) So people like me are having to search elsewhere, out of planning for work

which begs the questions
1) Do I have this summed up correctly?
2) What's your advice, since I'm a statistician or GIS guru....and planning has so few openings.
-Look elsewhere for work outside planning?
-Where for a generalists, descriptive stat guy like me?
 
btrage said:
As an employed planner, I would not suggest that people pursue a career in planning, especially as a generalist planner. If you're going to be a planner, you better become highly specialized. Or be happy with having to travel across the country to find work.

People may think it's an admirable profession, but at the end of the day, it's probably not worth it.

Granted, in 5 years, the outlook for the profession could be vastly different. But as of today, I tell people to run away from planning, run far away.
Click to expand...

1) Where should a generalist planner wannabe like me look then for work (related fields)?
2) Why run far away from planning?
 
rover said:
1) Where should a generalist planner wannabe like me look then for work (related fields)?
2) Why run far away from planning?
Click to expand...

People have already offered you up some ideas in this thread.

http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41308&highlight=related+fields

The problem is that fields related to "planning" are also shrinking or stagnant.

I say run far away because no one has any idea when the profession will turn the corner again. Don't run away from it as a passion, but be very cautious with your expectations of it as a profession. I'm not necessarily saying this to YOU, because you've already made a commitment out of it. I say run away to people who are considering it as a course of education.

I believe the future of "planning" lays in the economic development arena. Everything we do will be measured by how it improves the local economy.
 
rover said:
Thank you guys for your help and suggestions.
I am relieved because if I understand you correctly:

1) I didn't waste my time/money/schooling in Geography. My thinking of Geography as means for planning or planning related field was solid.
2) People like, descriptive statistics, generalists, qualitative types, we aren't useless history majors
3) In other words...it's not me or my skillset...I didn't choose a bad path it's....

The bad news
1) The problem is that the economy stinks, nothing is being built, and so there is no demand, rather downsizing for planner.
2) So people like me are having to search elsewhere, out of planning for work

which begs the questions
1) Do I have this summed up correctly?
2) What's your advice, since I'm a statistician or GIS guru....and planning has so few openings.
-Look elsewhere for work outside planning?
-Where for a generalists, descriptive stat guy like me?
Click to expand...

1.) I think you mostly have this summed up correctly. Again, you didn't mention if you have any experience or not (i.e. internships), which I think are pretty critical in this field, even if the economy wasn't bad. They may have not been needed as much in the past, but I think they are going to be pretty much required in the future as I forsee the planning job market to continue to be competitive once the economy recovers. Much of planning cannot be learned in the classroom, but rather from experience. Even just a summer internship or two will put you at a much greater advantage. I know that in this economy, internships are very hard to come by. So that's why I would contact some local planning offices and just see if you can get some experience by doing some volunteer work for them. Even just a few hours a week would be great. I did the same and it led me to a paid internship. Not only will you gain experience and boost your credentials, but the office will get some more work done, you can establish contacts and references, you can see if this is what you really want to do, and it gets your foot in the door which can lead to paid internships and paid jobs.

2.) It sounds like you are more skilled in GIS and statistics than most planners. I know I would consider myself to have some skills in those areas, but I probably couldn't do either full-time. However, it sounds like you can, so I would apply to jobs in those fields. There are probably more to be had right now and the money is often pretty good. Some people find doing GIS all day everyday to be incredibly boring and repetitive, but I know there are some that really enjoy it and are great at it. As far as statistics, I have a friend who has a job where he runs statistical anyalyses in SPSS all day and he makes bank doing it.
 
Thanks guys.
I should have added:

1) I did a summer internship at a rural town planner's office

I should have corrected:
1) I am NOT a GIS or statistician guru
Rather I am more of a descriptive stats, qualitative type...I have been made by others to feel like since I am NOT a GIS guru, quant expert, but more general liberal arts...that my degrees are useless...so Bubba...we share the same sentiment (I just typed too fast!)
 
rover said:
Thanks guys.
I should have added:

1) I did a summer internship at a rural town planner's office

I should have corrected:
1) I am NOT a GIS or statistician guru
Rather I am more of a descriptive stats, qualitative type...I have been made by others to feel like since I am NOT a GIS guru, quant expert, but more general liberal arts...that my degrees are useless...so Bubba...we share the same sentiment (I just typed too fast!)
Click to expand...

1.) Regarding the internship, that's a good thing. Especially that you have rural experience. I've interviewed for county planning jobs where rural planning was important, but because I interned for a metropolitan suburban community rather than a rural area, they ended up choosing the person that had more rural planning experience. Although it won't hurt to keep trying to get internships and more experience if you can't land a full-time job right now. Remember, many planning positions out there want two years experience, so getting another internship wouldn't hurt. Even if it's volunteering.

1.) As far as the GIS/stats, thing, I guess I misunderstood. It sounds like you're like a typical planner then, with a little bit of knowledge and skills in a lot of different areas but not an expert at any of them. So, I think you are destined for planning. Just keep applying and marketing yourself well and hopefully something will come.
 
I did an internship and when I was found valuable to the short-staffed organization, after three months they found money to pay me an hourly wage for 20 hrs/week. That continued for a year ... it was a good way to gain experience.

It does sound like even if you are not a guru, you do have more stats than most planners will have? This could be a selling point.
 
And people in the technical fields will always tell you a liberal arts degree is worthless ... With any degree, I think its what you make of it. Many skills will be gained on the job and thru professional education, while much of planning also requires soft skills. IMO, nor would I consider Geography to be purely "liberal arts" - it's one of the main degrees for people in planning.

There are different paths. I am amazed by the skills some students have in urban design computer work, for example, but at the same time as a municipal planner I was the person who hires these folks and their firms and understands how their work fits into a broader redevelopment strategy, not the one who spends hours at the computer building the model. Maybe I was just lucky. In my experience, I have developed skills in about 3 areas of planning and wish to enhance these as well as overall project management skills - so I won't be a pure generalist, but won't be limitted to working in only one niche either. I am looking to move and have had fair success in my job search thus far - selling myself not as a pure generalist but as someone who understands about 3 areas of planning in some depth.
 
Seems to me jobs in just about any field (linked with construction) stink right now. However, construction can't stay stagnant forever, in my opinion now is the best time to get a foot in the door.

Frankly I think the geography degree can be a great choice. I was a planning undergrad and my 4 years felt like a waste of time. Without a doubt I have definitely learned more in my recent internships than what my school offered. Had I taken geography or econ/stat etc. instead, I feel like I would have more to offer. Even so, I enjoy the work in this field and don't have any plans switching career paths.

It has been a struggle though. I have many friends in planning, arch, and engineering who have recently graduated and found nothing.
 
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I also have a degree in Geography. It has been two years since I graduated and it has been difficult to even land an interview. I had more interviews the year before I graduated. It seems to me to be the economy more than anything. I know what I want to do professionally and I will continue to try even though it is difficult to land an interview much less a job. I am currently employed out of the field and have faced less hours in a business that has not had to ever cut hours. On the plus side I have found a number of available jobs and am looking forward to these new leads. I myself am also weak in the GIS department and recently started working on it at home to create maps and sharpen my skills. I recently saw a resume of someone who works in a position I want to do one day and realized that there is a lot more I can do on my own time to sharpen my skills and enhance my resume. I would recommend using down time to create your own work in a way that is marketable and relevant. Keep trying and it should pay off eventually . Every month that goes by will just make that job offer better when it is presented!
 
I am thinking of getting my masters in geography, so that I could teach as a college professor. The two community colleges near me usually hire every year and this year they happened to be hiring geography professors and all the spots weren't filled.

My bachelors is going to be in city planning because if I can get a job in planning that is what I want to do first, but if not then I am fine teaching because that means I can move back to my hometown. It's a win win situation!

And planning will be better in certain parts of the nation over others. Larger cities and certain states will be needing planners. From what I heard, Texas and some East Coast states will be developing and parts of California near the major cities.
 
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