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Equity / justice ⚖️ A planning-like role in ending poverty

luckless pedestrian

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This is a fascinating article about how Canada seems to be able to reduce their poverty level by a staggering 20% - it's all about community and connecting - something all of us in community development have been saying for years!

Posting here for thoughts and obvious jealousy of our northern neighbors
 
Poverty is a very local issue as it doesn't look the same everywhere, yet the same set of band-aids are applied everywhere.
 
Personally, it seems to be a lack of education and access to resources that really create poverty in today's modern, first-world societies. While food pantries are important as a safety net (if you've ever lived hand to mouth, you know what I mean), bridging socio-economic gaps prevents institutional elitism. That, in turn, would lead to direct change because the powerful, rich, business owners would be, under this sort of a program, obligated to be at the same level as their less fortunate counterparts.
In theory, it is similar to how most mixed-use urban neighborhoods tend to be safer and more functional than demographically similar yet less socio-economically dynamic ones. Often times, it is overly developed, industry centered neighborhoods or completely residential urban areas with little economic activity that become afflicted by poverty.
Similarly, if you make people from different areas and fields network often to solve problems, it will have the effect of making the city's social fabric tighter and more "dynamic".
However, as stated in my opening sentence, I think a lot of core issues lie in those two elements associated with poverty. Perhaps addressing those would lower poverty by 50%....
 
In the laundry list of factors that lead to the success of this type of innovative program in Canada, compared to the reality of it possibly failing if implemented in the exact, same way in the U.S. , one really struck a chord. Social Medicine and first-rate Universal Healthcare. Because the "poverty" demographic involved in the non-profit led socio-economic networking experiment all had good healthcare and guaranteed medical help for any kind of emergencies, it may have been easier for them to focus on making the most out of the opportunities offered when joining this initiative. How can climbing your way up the economic ladder because of a public-private program, that would seemslofty to many Americans, be your priority if your dying of a treatable ailment? The Social Darwinist attitude inherent in the American healthcare system is a large cog in the phenomenon of domestic poverty.
On a similar note, because of Socialized Medicine, a conversation about implementing a policy-based project like this wouldn't be far-fetched because of how many great, left-leaning, public services there are available to people. But, in the land of private medical insurance, where we can't even come up with reasonable policies for preventing mass-killers from obtaining firearms legally, it would seem unrealistic to poor participants that this type of a pragmatic project could drastically lower the poverty rate.
Thus, I argue, that in America, a policy-based program to change systemic, societal issues would have to offer more economic incentives to business-owners and wealthier members for contributing their time and aid to eliminating poverty. Somehow, given the political differences between Canada and the US, there would be less hesitation to sacrifice a bit of excess, personal resources for the greater good. After all, that and the faith in that political ideology part of what makes Universal Healthcare a working reality.
 
Thus, I argue, that in America, a policy-based program to change systemic, societal issues would have to offer more economic incentives to business-owners and wealthier members for contributing their time and aid to eliminating poverty.

You want to give the rich more money? I hesitate to turn this into a political thread, but a good part of the reason people can't afford healthcare and other things that were once within reach of the working person is that wealth is being disproprotionately funneled to the very rich.
 
I didn't say give them more money...I said "more economic incentives", meaning tax breaks, liens, excellent returns on their investments, the ability to cut through excessive, bureaucratic red tape and expedite results, etc. Notice, I didn't say "the rich", I said "business owners and wealthier members". Business owners can very often be working, or middle class, people, however they can directly impact economic change by hiring those in need. The wealthier members of this experiment in Canada were willing to help out, and as said in the article there were also incentives for them to partake. But, given the state of affairs in America, do you think that would really work? I am merely taking a pragmatic approach, that of a social entrepreneur.
Money is money. Whether it comes from the government or the private sector, much of it is earned with ill-gotten gains. Market demand controls medicine and health care, gun control, prisons and the criminal justice system, among other things in the U.S. Don't tell me that corrupt government officials (of which the U.S. still has plenty) should take less money from WEALTHIER (by that I don't mean the 1%, as you were suggesting) private actors that will gain from helping the most neglected demographic of our society. God forbid wealthier people (again, not the Illuminati...I'm talking American, suburbanite, upper-middle class, borgeous folk) that invest in helping society should benefit from it, huh?
Given the socio-economic and political climate in America right now, I don't think that the Canadian program would work in the US without more incentives. Perhaps, they don't necessarily have to be economic, though. That's where planners and policy makers need to get creative.
Interestingly enough, I'm working on a white paper/proposal that deals with this very issue. Eliminating poverty through innovative and modern-day means (like the networking in Canada). However, I personally believe technology needs to be implemented more often and effectively. It requires a lot of innovation to get America to the level of our first-world peers in sociological terms, and there is no easy answer, either way, as to how to pick up the pieces.
No, I do not support the rich getting richer unless they are using a good sum of money to give back to society efficiently and often. Of course, by earning their money through legal, hard working means, not "funneling". I oppose the funneling and apparent upper-class agenda to systematically swindle people in recent years.
By the way, I've been on Welfare and Medicaid, and had to go to the Newark, NJ Essex County welfare department. Believe me, I know how demeaning it can be to be poor in America. At this point, if wealthy people make more socially conscious purchases an investments, it can only help. Unless you want to grab the pitchforks and start a revolution....
 
True - I took a class from Donna Beegle and she changed my entire outlook and really helped my work in community development
Same here, but my class was Social Planning with Bernie Jones author of Neighborhood Planning. He had numerous examples of how Canadian planners interacted with those in poverty and worked in a wide variety of positions, not just land use.
 
I am going to bump this thread as it is something that I have been thinking a lot about recently.

One change that we put in place with our Affordable Housing incentives is to have sunset dates on affordable housing units after 7 or 10 years. The thought (which came from Color of Law) is that it allows those residents to get into quality housing, and after a period of time sell the units for market rate and move out of the “affordable housing” price limitations and into even higher quality housing or to a parallel setting and have a higher down payment for lower monthly payment.

This is assuming that there is always the opportunity to continue to replace those affordable units.

What are some other things that planners can do to help people get out of poverty?
 
I am going to bump this thread as it is something that I have been thinking a lot about recently.

One change that we put in place with our Affordable Housing incentives is to have sunset dates on affordable housing units after 7 or 10 years. The thought (which came from Color of Law) is that it allows those residents to get into quality housing, and after a period of time sell the units for market rate and move out of the “affordable housing” price limitations and into even higher quality housing or to a parallel setting and have a higher down payment for lower monthly payment.

This is assuming that there is always the opportunity to continue to replace those affordable units.

What are some other things that planners can do to help people get out of poverty?
Just to make sure I understand: this applies to affordable homeownership units, correct? With the idea being that the owner gets to apply the equity increment toward market rate housing somewhere else? I guess this could work if there's an adequate supply of market rate units coming online so that the departing homeowner has options. I can't think of a single market in the Northeast US where this would work given supply constraints, but the Sunbelt is a different planet in this regard.
 
I see basically two types of housing being built in our city. One is the Large Apartment Complex near the urban core, a 5-story building wrapped around a parking garage, most often built as "luxury apartment homes" going for $2.50 per sq ft (i.e., 750 sq ft = $1,875 per month which is more than the mortgage (PITI) on my 1900 sq ft house. Hard to save for a down payment on a house when you're paying rent like that.

The other type is single family housing on the fringes, typically 45 minute commute from the urban core, with "starter" homes of 2,500 sq ft going for well over a half million.

The other option for a prospective buyer is to buy an existing home. Even in run-down neighborhoods it's hard to find something livable much under $200/sq ft.

You can find lower prices per square foot in larger homes, but... y'know... they're larger and therefore more expensive. The bottom wrung of home ownership here is about $200,000 for something that needs a lot of work. Even for college graduates they often can't afford anything like that due to the student loans they're saddled with.

One thing pushing housing prices up is corporate buyers who buy a home with either an intention to give it a cheap cosmetic makeover and flip it, or to rent it out. That extra money in the market is making home ownership increasingly difficult to achieve for private buyers who just want to own the home they live in.

There's nothing preventing corporations from buying up all the houses on the market, often at an overpayment, knowing they will eventually get their money back. What suggestions can you think of that would discourage further corporate ownership of single family or small multifamily homes (duplexes/triplexes)?
 
Just to make sure I understand: this applies to affordable homeownership units, correct? With the idea being that the owner gets to apply the equity increment toward market rate housing somewhere else? I guess this could work if there's an adequate supply of market rate units coming online so that the departing homeowner has options. I can't think of a single market in the Northeast US where this would work given supply constraints, but the Sunbelt is a different planet in this regard.

The growth in this region is unprecedented and the developers are capitalizing on this boom. As such, we are using that growth to leverage the creation of affordable units scattered within new developments. Instead of them coming all online at the same time, they are being developed in a phased approach which helps to extend the time that something is avalible. These are all owner-occupied situations where the purchaser needs to meet the HUD income requirements to be eligible for purchase.

We are also currently trying to encourage developers to establish more market rate rental opportunities to help offset some of the situations were brokers are buying up whole phases of neighborhoods that have the "most affordable" products and renting them out at or above market rate. If these units were for sale, it would help address the missing middle problem that we also have.

Finally, we allow ADUs by right in all residential and mixed use neighborhoods and allow for these to be rented. The goal here is to help increase the supply of rental options and establish potential income options for home owners as well.
 
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I am going to bump this thread with a continuation of this question.

How much does culture play into poverty? I am not talking about race or ethnic background, but I am talking about the community and world view that people are raised in. I want to clarify that I am not saying that they do not have inherent challenges or would have a more difficult time digging out of poverty, but I was thinking about this from the opposite viewpoint of the very wealthy and how they achieved that status. Mainly over 75% of millionaires are first generation wealthy, so it wasn't money that they inherited or something. But at some point they broke out of their existing culture and started doing things differently. However the overwhelming majority live very normal lifestyles and dramatically below their means.

For those in poverty, they often don't make enough to meet the minimums of their means. Which indicates they need to do one of three things, find different ways to live cheaper and that is often not possible, find ways to increase the income at their current job, or find a higher income at a different job. The second two will requires something to change. Either how they think or what they know. It just makes me wonder how often people feel that they are 'trapped' and we are not making people aware of the opportunities that are really available to them, such as programs at the local libraries and such.

I don't have an answer to this, and I know that this is a very complicated subject and for everyone there are different variables that need to be considered. But I also see how much influence other people have on each other.
 
The interesting thing is that most people that are low income but not receiving means tested benefits like SNAP, Medicaid, or housing assistance consider themselves as "poor".

While it's true that 75% of millionaires are first generation wealthy, their average age is also mid 50s so they've been in the workforce a long time. Also, most metrics focus on "net worth" which includes real estate ownership less mortgage debt. That's not unreasonable assuming they went to college, graduated on time without a lot of debt, got a decent job and have enjoyed regular promotions, raises, or job hopped up the ladder. Add in 401K and other investments, it's not hard to understand how they got there.

But back to your original question about what needs to happen:

1. Increasing one's earning potential often requires an investment of time and money-both are often in short supply by lower income people.
2. Housing is the #1 expense for all households. The housing market whether you rent or own has gone off the rails, wages have not kept pace. Did you know that only 25% of eligible households have a housing voucher because they are an incredibly scarce resource and the waiting lists are often years long?
3. Location determines opportunity and people always don't have the ability to move.

It's hard to bootstrap your way up. A lot of it just sheer dumb luck.
 
Another interesting thing, at least to me, in looking at this is the lack of definition of "first generation wealthy". Researching just a little bit it looks like different studies, surveys, and books look at that notion differently. So if somebody says "79% of millionaires are first generation wealthy" you have to consider @kjel 's points above BUT you also have to realize that in addition, "first generation wealthy" doesn't define "inheritance." For example, @michaelskis, to your first point - lots of people come from different backgrounds. Some kids get tutors, or SAT prep classes at the lowest end of privilege, and others running the gamut from not having to work through HS, or college, or getting college educations paid for (straight-out or on some scholarship, perhaps). But even pausing a moment on scholarships, it's not hard to imagine a kid who is growing up in a family that is not in the millionaire class, and she's not going to get a $20 Million loan to start her dream business or something, OK. But she IS going to be able to be in a private cheerleading gym as she grows up. She's never going to work during school, she's going to be on her HS team as well, and her team coaches and parents will make sure her grades stay up so she can get on a good cheerleading squad at a school she wants to attend and maybe she even gets some scholarship money to do it or mom and dad keep on paying. Those connections from college add up to a lot; we know that much. The same holds true for other sports, for music, for academics, etc.: the deck is just stacked against kids who come from families without money. So it's a long boring example, but contrast it with the kid who works 25 hours a week during HS to help his mom and dad keep up on the rent and keep the lights on many times. When I look at it, I know that plenty of people wind up with a net worth of millionaires and don't start from what you would consider "inheritance money" or "extreme privilege" but I think the notion is just fundamentally disingenuous that tons and tons of people are just born in miserable poverty and bootstrap their way up the American Dream ladder till they're buying mansions somewhere. I know too many people who would describe themselves as having come from "lower middle class" to become wealthy 'all on their own" when I know their parents owned multiple properties, owned restaurants and/or other businesses, spent Spring Break in the Virgin Islands, and who spent all their time agonizing over whether to spend the $50,000 their parents gave them at graduation on school or starting a business. People's ideas about what is what are just too far apart on these kinds of questions to have any real understanding or if those kinds of "75% of millionaires" numbers mean anything in any reliable way.

The questions that grow out of considering statements are very interesting, however, and I dig the conversation! Glad it got bumped!
 
The other thing is the jobs the "working poor" do are jobs that we need - if we learned anything during COVID, we learned that front line service workers hold our country up - so, if the corporations that own those businesses don't want to pay a living wage, then we need what is really a corporate subsidy and give those workers benefits so they can live in an economy that requires a much higher income for basic services - so sure, if they move up and get a better job, then who is working the 7/11 to get your frosty?

Another problem that could be easily remedied is that the poverty level designation is seriously flawed - people making minimum wage, even working 2 jobs at that wage, cannot meet basic needs of food and shelter.

Government can set a minimum wage, but since they set it lower than what's needed to survive, then there is a role for government to say okay we aren't making them pay you, so we will help your boss out and fill in so you can survive (not thrive, survive)

And one thing that happens that throws that money off, they are evicted and homeless - I see it all the time here

When we were kids, the cost of things was different - the family with 4 kids down the street from me in the 70's in NY - their dad was a butcher, and their mom stayed home - no way that could happen today - and he had a pension!

So yeah, someone who begins in the middle class is more likely to remain there and move up because they went to school when it wasn't outrageously expensive - and being a millionaire today isn't the same as being a millionaire when we were kids
 
Government can set a minimum wage, but since they set it lower than what's needed to survive, then there is a role for government to say okay we aren't making them pay you, so we will help your boss out and fill in so you can survive (not thrive, survive)
This. And can I just put on my Happy Warrior hat for a moment and point out to the void that by this logic - which is very sound - SNAP, and CHIP, and WIC are not subsidizing workers....they're subsidizing the fucking corporations. All U.S. government subsidies are corporate subsidies if you look at them long enough to understand them.

Sorry, I'll take my hat off now. You're just so very, very, very right in that assessment and it made me want to shot "EXACTLY" sitting here in my office. :)
 
The interesting thing is that most people that are low income but not receiving means tested benefits like SNAP, Medicaid, or housing assistance consider themselves as "poor".

While it's true that 75% of millionaires are first generation wealthy, their average age is also mid 50s so they've been in the workforce a long time. Also, most metrics focus on "net worth" which includes real estate ownership less mortgage debt. That's not unreasonable assuming they went to college, graduated on time without a lot of debt, got a decent job and have enjoyed regular promotions, raises, or job hopped up the ladder. Add in 401K and other investments, it's not hard to understand how they got there.

But back to your original question about what needs to happen:

1. Increasing one's earning potential often requires an investment of time and money-both are often in short supply by lower income people.
2. Housing is the #1 expense for all households. The housing market whether you rent or own has gone off the rails, wages have not kept pace. Did you know that only 25% of eligible households have a housing voucher because they are an incredibly scarce resource and the waiting lists are often years long?
3. Location determines opportunity and people always don't have the ability to move.

It's hard to bootstrap your way up. A lot of it just sheer dumb luck.

In regards to the age of millionaires, you are likely correct. There are also many people in their 50’s and older that have nothing.

I agree with your three points and that leads into the how question, “How do we as a society help these people?” Not just give these people a hand out, but a hand up to empower them to change their lives. Vouchers alone won’t make a difference if someone just stays working a minimum wage job. I ask because I don’t think what we have been doing is working.

As for dumb luck, while I think there might be an element of that, I also think that it also looks a lot like hard work (both at a job and yourself) over a long period of time.
 
For those in poverty[…] they need to do one of three things, find different ways to live cheaper and that is often not possible, find ways to increase the income at their current job, or find a higher income at a different job.

I want to make a broad generalization about you, but I won’t because I don’t really know anything about you. Yet the words you wrote above about those in poverty are surprisingly revealing. All I can say in response is that there are more than three things those in poverty can do.
 
I want to make a broad generalization about you, but I won’t because I don’t really know anything about you. Yet the words you wrote above about those in poverty are surprisingly revealing. All I can say in response is that there are more than three things those in poverty can do.

I will PM you. But you are right... you don't know anything me.
 
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