Land use 🕍 Why is there lack of low rise suburban apartments in southern Ontario?

[nec209]

Why is there lack of low rise apartments buildings in southern Ontario in the suburbs?

In southern Ontario there seem to be lot of 10 story apartments building or 20 story apartments building in major contrast to the southern US cities.

In southern Ontario why is there lack of low rise suburban apartments like you see in southern US cities like this in south.

https://communityimpact.com/uploads/images/2021/03/11/118007.jpg

Not sure if this it or not but I thought I was reading some where that wood frame apartments are ban in most places in Canada at least in the 50s to 80s when most of those apartments in Ontario where mid rise and high rise.

I thought I was reading fire safety code is stricter in Canada that apartments above two stories must be thick concrete with two or more firewall stairwell and internal hallway going to units than externally hallway shown in picture above. That this add cost so it cheaper built 10 or 20 story apartments and that reason why there so many 10 or 20 story apartments because it cheaper.

I read most US cities base on the fire safety code the apartment cannot go past 6 stories if they using wood frame apartments because most ladder trucks go only up to 6 floor. That the reason for so many low rise apartments in the US. But such fire safety code does not exist in Canada.

It seems the lumber lobbyists are stronger in the US than Canada and lobby strongly for wood frame apartments unlike Canada that opt for stricter thick concrete, fire major break wall, two or more firewall stairwell and internal hallway going to units than externally hallway shown in picture above.

I was shocked at the number of high rise apartments in Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton even London Ontario and Pickering and Ajax . But if the fire safety code is stricter in Canada this hands lot cost to developer so it cheaper to build high rise.

 

[fringe]

Why is there lack of low rise apartments buildings in southern Ontario in the suburbs?

In southern Ontario there seem to be lot of 10 story apartments building or 20 story apartments building in major contrast to the southern US cities.

In southern Ontario why is there lack of low rise suburban apartments like you see in southern US cities like this in south.

View attachment 63923

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https://communityimpact.com/uploads/images/2021/03/11/118007.jpg

Not sure if this it or not but I thought I was reading some where that wood frame apartments are ban in most places in Canada at least in the 50s to 80s when most of those apartments in Ontario where mid rise and high rise.

I thought I was reading fire safety code is stricter in Canada that apartments above two stories must be thick concrete with two or more firewall stairwell and internal hallway going to units than externally hallway shown in picture above. That this add cost so it cheaper built 10 or 20 story apartments and that reason why there so many 10 or 20 story apartments because it cheaper.

I read most US cities base on the fire safety code the apartment cannot go past 6 stories if they using wood frame apartments because most ladder trucks go only up to 6 floor. That the reason for so many low rise apartments in the US. But such fire safety code does not exist in Canada.

It seems the lumber lobbyists are stronger in the US than Canada and lobby strongly for wood frame apartments unlike Canada that opt for stricter thick concrete, fire major break wall, two or more firewall stairwell and internal hallway going to units than externally hallway shown in picture above.

I was shocked at the number of high rise apartments in Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton even London Ontario and Pickering and Ajax . But if the fire safety code is stricter in Canada this hands lot cost to developer so it cheaper to build high rise.

ICC forbids wood frame buildings over three stories.

 

[donk]

Land values, development charges, construction costs, application carrying costs, taxation all force a premium on slmidrise that make them not economically attractive to a developer.

In terms of code in Ontario, it has changed to allow wood frame up to 6 stores, but elevator shafts require concrete, plus fire escapes, so once a trade is on site, easier to keep using them.

 

[Dan]

FWIW, many cities in the United States ban new gangway / breezeway / motel style apartment buildings like the ones @nec209 posted.

 

[nec209]

Land values, development charges, construction costs, application carrying costs, taxation all force a premium on slmidrise that make them not economically attractive to a developer.


Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton even London Ontario and Pickering and Ajax built lot of those apartments in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s when land value cost was much cheaper and city sprawl was not thing back than like it is today.

So clearly it was different there than the southern US.

In terms of code in Ontario, it has changed to allow wood frame up to 6 stores, but elevator shafts require concrete, plus fire escapes, so once a trade is on site, easier to keep using them.

So if Ontario had very strict fire safety code any structure more than two stories or more must be all concrete would explain than why Ontario has so many mid and high rise apartments that you just don’t see in southern US.

Some one said to me in the 40s and 50s it was more mid rise apartments and in the 60, 70s and 80s more high rise apartments.


Than the condo boom of high rise units.

And Ontario just don’t build low rise apartments because it too costly with all concrete and two or more exist fire stairwell and fire breaks wall.

FWIW, many cities in the United States ban new gangway / breezeway / motel style apartment buildings like the ones @nec209 posted.

These are mostly in the sun belt cities and in the suburb as these are suburban apartments than the more traditional urban apartments.

 

[UrbanUnPlanner]

FWIW, many cities in the United States ban new gangway / breezeway / motel style apartment buildings like the ones

Why is this? Is it a pure correlation with climate (which'd make sense, Montreal walkups are the weirdo re: outdoor stairs in cold climes), or is there some more nefarious reason they wanted to throw the breezeway style of apartment building into the trashcan of history? (Or a less nefarious one, for that matter: nobody builds new dingbats to speak of because they have a bad habit of falling over when jiggled unless a bunch of extra work is put in)

 

[donk]

By chance I drove through oakville today. I saw quite a few 6 storey buildings under construction. I have to assume the land use planning documents made it easy to get approvals and build, or the builder/developer would have gone for more density.

Make it easy to buil, and the private sector will be enticed to do it. Plus iakville is a notorious nightmare to do business in.

 

[Dan]

The way I heard it from Macklin Hancock himself -- I took a tour of Don Mills in the 1990s, and Hancock was one of the guides -- planning in Ontario from the 1950s onward was more centralized, with more provincial control. Postwar reconstruction and planning efforts in the UK; mainly new towns, high rise tower-in-a-park apartments, and greenbelts, had a huge influence on planning in Ontario. Prewar garden suburbs and postwar new towns (Milton Keynes, etc.) in the UK have rowhouses and side-by-side duplex ("semi-detached") houses arranged around large open courtyards, but not garden apartments separated by floor in the American sense. Planners in the UK also started to embrace tower-in-a-park apartment buildings in the postwar years. However Canadian municipalitiues regulate their build environmen using more quantitative American-style zoning, rather than the more subjective UK-style planning permission system. The result: suburban zoning codes in Ontario would allow the same kinds of housing as what's seen in "well planned" UK projects -- single family houses, duplexes, rowhouses, and towers in a park -- along with already familiar fourplex/sixplex/eightplex/etc buildings on their own lots, but not American-style apartment complexes.

Searching through Golden Horseshoe-area newspapers, articles about new zoning districts for high rise apartments and condos became quite common starting around 1955. Newspapers in the Upstate New York "Thruway cities" had a few artices here and there about individul high rise apartment projects, but not so much about zoning code amendments or widescale rezoning. Zoning codes in Ontario set residential density limits, which helped contribute to the tower-in-a-park form that's so common in areas developed in the 20th century.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of 1960s/1970s/1980s high rise residential buildings in Ontario were built as condominium projects. Same thing with 2-3 story rowhouse complexes. The 2 and 3 story fourplex+ buildings were built mostly for rental. Ontario had very few 2- or 3 story rental complexes with one-level apartments, pools, community buildings, and the like. They just never became part of the building typology. Considering the very high cost of land and construction in southern Ontario, I don't think American-style suburban rental complexes will ever be a part of the landscape there, even in small towns or Northern Ontario.

I don't know much about the other provinces. I know Quebec has a residential form that somewhat resembles an American suburban apartment complex, but the individual buildings are much larger; more like typical 3- and 4-story Montreal-style 12-plex and 16-plex buildings arrnged around off-street parking lots, than the 2- and 3-story buildings more common in US complexes.

 

[Doohickie]

but?

 

[nec209]

The way I heard it from Macklin Hancock himself -- I took a tour of Don Mills in the 1990s, and Hancock was one of the guides -- planning in Ontario from the 1950s onward was more centralized, with more provincial control. Postwar reconstruction and planning efforts in the UK; mainly new towns, high rise tower-in-a-park apartments, and greenbelts, had a huge influence on planning in Ontario. Prewar garden suburbs and postwar new towns (Milton Keynes, etc.) in the UK have rowhouses and side-by-side duplex ("semi-detached") houses arranged around large open courtyards, but not garden apartments separated by floor in the American sense. Planners in the UK also started to embrace tower-in-a-park apartment buildings in the postwar years. However Canadian municipalitiues regulate their build environmen using more quantitative American-style zoning, rather than the more subjective UK-style planning permission system. The result: suburban zoning codes in Ontario would allow the same kinds of housing as what's seen in "well planned" UK projects -- single family houses, duplexes, rowhouses, and towers in a park -- along with already familiar fourplex/sixplex/eightplex/etc buildings on their own lots, but not American-style apartment complexes.

Searching through Golden Horseshoe-area newspapers, articles about new zoning districts for high rise apartments and condos became quite common starting around 1955. Newspapers in the Upstate New York "Thruway cities" had a few artices here and there about individul high rise apartment projects, but not so much about zoning code amendments or widescale rezoning. Zoning codes in Ontario set residential density limits, which helped contribute to the tower-in-a-park form that's so common in areas developed in the 20th century.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of 1960s/1970s/1980s high rise residential buildings in Ontario were built as condominium projects. Same thing with 2-3 story rowhouse complexes. The 2 and 3 story fourplex+ buildings were built mostly for rental. Ontario had very few 2- or 3 story rental complexes with one-level apartments, pools, community buildings, and the like. They just never became part of the building typology. Considering the very high cost of land and construction in southern Ontario, I don't think American-style suburban rental complexes will ever be a part of the landscape there, even in small towns or Northern Ontario.

I don't know much about the other provinces. I know Quebec has a residential form that somewhat resembles an American suburban apartment complex, but the individual buildings are much larger; more like typical 3- and 4-story Montreal-style 12-plex and 16-plex buildings arrnged around off-street parking lots, than the 2- and 3-story buildings more common in US complexes.

That is interesting how Ontario city planners copied UK city planners of tower in park. I wonder why they dismiss American apartments and copied UK city planners of tower in park. But this was common in the 1960s/1970s/1980s

And Canadian condo boom of the 2000s and 2010s is even taller.

What is really odd one major difference I notice is around density zoning in the US like US have density zoning areas. This is high density zoning area, this is medium density zoning area and this low density zoning areas.

In the US high rise buildings are normally go in high density zoning area or restricted to the down town areas. The medium rise buildings go in medium rise zoning area and the low rise buildings go in the low density zoning area. And a more taping off of the skyline where you cam see the skyline go from high to medium and than to low as the skyline is taping off.

Well Canada does don’t seem to have that kind of zoning or skyline taping off.

Also in American cities in the suburbs have more restrictions on hight limits zoning restrictions than the more urban areas or older down town areas where has Canada does not seem to have that.

So it is not unusual to see high rise condo plot down in a low density suburb area or along fringe of the city close to country side in Canada. That just looks really out place in US.

Canada zoning seems less red tape and more this is build up area and this is countryside so not unusual to see high rise condo plot down in a low density suburb or close to countryside.

Also on side note American apartments or condos seem more car centric where has in Canada those high rise apartments or high rise condos seem to be build along city bus routes and more foot traffic and public transit.

So you all know public transit serves is best in high density areas than low density areas so I wonder if city buses routes is other reason for high rise density.

 

[Dan]

That is interesting how Ontario city planners copied UK city planners of tower in park. I wonder why they dismiss American apartments and copied UK city planners of tower in park. But this was common in the 1960s/1970s/1980s

And Canadian condo boom of the 2000s and 2010s is even taller.
...
Also on side note American apartments or condos seem more car centric where has in Canada those high rise apartments or high rise condos seem to be build along city bus routes and more foot traffic and public transit.

Allright.

As an American (sigh), I hope the Canadians among us can add something, or maybe correct me if I'm wrong.

The tl;dr answer can be found, in part, on Canadian change.

Here's a 1980s signoff from a TV station in Buffalo. Buffalo's TV stations are carried on cable systems in southern Ontsrio.



And a signoff from a TV station in Toronto. Some Toronto TV stations, including Channel 9, are carried on cable systems in western New York.



Wait for it ...

In Buffalo, you'll see businesses and institutions flying both the American and Canadian flags. In Canadian border towns, in the 1970s and 1980s more so than now, you'd see the Canadian flag and the Union Jack.

There's a subtle but deep strain of anti-Americanism in Canada, Much of Canadian identity is rooted in how Canada is different from the US -- "so, the field is 110 yards long, it's a three down limit to gain 10 yards, the field goal posts are centered on the goal line, and we have something called a rogue" -- rather than the ways it's distinct in and of itself. Planning in Canada might seem to follow the American model, but there have to be some differences to keep things from becoming "too American" for comfort.

Well into the middle and late. 20th century, Canada still received a lot of (Anglo) immigtants from the UK and its former colonies. Many prominent professional architects and planners were among them. In the postwar years, Canadians had easy access to American planning publications, trade magazines, conferences, white papers, and the like. They knew what was happening over here. However, there were far more British expat planners than American expat planners working in Canada. When it came to selling new concepts to the Most Esteemed High Lord Mayour of the Regional Municipal Township of Bonniekirk or whatever, the Brits were there, and the Americans weren't.

If the UK and Canada (and Australia, and New Zealand, and Ireland, and Mexico ...) are among America's besties, the UK and Canada are like siblings that live thousands of miles apart, who still talk daily, in a secret language they made up when they were kids. Despite the US being next door, Canada's relationship with the UK has a very strong pull on many aspects of day-to-day life, including planning.

(Meanwhile, Quebecois don't care. Their culture has swagger. They speak French, drink Pepsi, smoke in church, live in small towns that look identical to those in Vermont and New Hampshire, and create joyful music that sounds half Cajun and half country, tabernac. They don't care if French citizens think of them as "Americans that speak improper French", and you have to love them for that.)

 

[nec209]

Also keep in mind the fire safety code from what I understand most apartments or condos can only go up to 6 or 7 floor because fire ladder truck cannot go up higher than that and fire safety code gets more complicated and cost more money to developers to build higher than that. So it is cheaper to build lot of low rise apartments and with in the safety code.

Canada has no such thing fire code. Also Canada uses fire rescue truck or squad truck in fire rescue where the US uses ladder truck for rescue. Most ladder trucks can only go up to 6 or 7 floor so it makes sense fire safety code is build around that.

On side note 2 to 4 stories is more suburb well as external hallway going to the units and 4 to 7 stories is more urban.

Here are more urban apartments/ condos in Seattle. THAT are mostly 4 to 7 stories is more urban.

Here are a few.

Downtown Kirkland, an older town center example.

Totem Lake Mall in Kirkland, a newer example.

Overlake, a newer example.

Downtown Burien, an old town center just starting transition.

Downtown Redmond, a larger area than most

You can use Google street view to look around the area.

 

[nec209]

The way I heard it from Macklin Hancock himself -- I took a tour of Don Mills in the 1990s, and Hancock was one of the guides -- planning in Ontario from the 1950s onward was more centralized, with more provincial control. Postwar reconstruction and planning efforts in the UK; mainly new towns, high rise tower-in-a-park apartments, and greenbelts, had a huge influence on planning in Ontario. Prewar garden suburbs and postwar new towns (Milton Keynes, etc.) in the UK have rowhouses and side-by-side duplex ("semi-detached") houses arranged around large open courtyards, but not garden apartments separated by floor in the American sense. Planners in the UK also started to embrace tower-in-a-park apartment buildings in the postwar years. However Canadian municipalitiues regulate their build environmen using more quantitative American-style zoning, rather than the more subjective UK-style planning permission system. The result: suburban zoning codes in Ontario would allow the same kinds of housing as what's seen in "well planned" UK projects -- single family houses, duplexes, rowhouses, and towers in a park -- along with already familiar fourplex/sixplex/eightplex/etc buildings on their own lots, but not American-style apartment complexes.

Searching through Golden Horseshoe-area newspapers, articles about new zoning districts for high rise apartments and condos became quite common starting around 1955. Newspapers in the Upstate New York "Thruway cities" had a few artices here and there about individul high rise apartment projects, but not so much about zoning code amendments or widescale rezoning. Zoning codes in Ontario set residential density limits, which helped contribute to the tower-in-a-park form that's so common in areas developed in the 20th century.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of 1960s/1970s/1980s high rise residential buildings in Ontario were built as condominium projects. Same thing with 2-3 story rowhouse complexes. The 2 and 3 story fourplex+ buildings were built mostly for rental. Ontario had very few 2- or 3 story rental complexes with one-level apartments, pools, community buildings, and the like. They just never became part of the building typology. Considering the very high cost of land and construction in southern Ontario, I don't think American-style suburban rental complexes will ever be a part of the landscape there, even in small towns or Northern Ontario.

I don't know much about the other provinces. I know Quebec has a residential form that somewhat resembles an American suburban apartment complex, but the individual buildings are much larger; more like typical 3- and 4-story Montreal-style 12-plex and 16-plex buildings arrnged around off-street parking lots, than the 2- and 3-story buildings more common in US complexes.

How does planning in the UK tower in park apartments compared to Le Corbusier in France because I read some where that in France apartments there where inspiration from Le Corbusier in tower in park there and other Asian countries had inspiration from Le Corbusier and lot of Asian countries have lot of high rise apartments I believe because of Le Corbusier.

 

[Dan]

How does planning in the UK tower in park apartments compared to Le Corbusier in France because I read some where that in France apartments there where inspiration from Le Corbusier in tower in park there and other Asian countries had inspiration from Le Corbusier and lot of Asian countries have lot of high rise apartments I believe because of Le Corbusier.

There were high rise apartment buildings in the US before Le Corbusier. Look at NYC and Chicago, or even what were considered second tier cities in the US at the time.

High rise apartments in the suburbs aren't unknown in the US. There's a lot in the Washington DC area, even in areas far from Metro stations. Quite a few got built around suburban Cleveland during the 1960s.