Working ✍️ On the verge of leaving planning profession

[nam0806]

Let me start out by saying this.

I never wanted it to come down to this. I worked hard for 6 years earning my bachelor's and master's degree in City Planning. It was rewarding, fun, and it was great to get to learn something that was not common sense to most people. Seeing how different people operated, it was a great time.

But that was in the classroom. Not in real life. I think it's important to have this dialogue. I want to let all the college students know that they should carefully look at their career choice before they spend a lot of money on a college education. I graduated from Clemson University two years ago. I still do not have employment after continually applying to jobs in the field. From planning technician jobs to entry level planning jobs, transportation planner jobs, etc., I have applied to many planning jobs. All of the discussions that I have had with various planners have shown me time after time that I may have not made the right decision when it comes to getting my degree. The planning profession is not for those who are ready to be frustrated when getting out of school. I worked very hard to try and get internships. None were successful, and I applied to many jobs in many different parts of the country.

However, I am still young. I have many other potential opportunities that I can use to advance myself further. I am writing this to alert the college students who are considering planning, or are about to begin a potential career in urban planning. Carefully consider this post. I am not writing this out of frustration. I am writing this to show real concern about the state of planning profession. If someone in my boat who has two degrees in planning, has worked his tail off to find employment, and still can not, it tells you something. When I had discussions with planners, they were rude, inconsiderate, never returned phone calls/e-mails referring to the status of the position, many of them even lied about how their planning offices functioned!

This has gone on for 2 years now. I cannot continue to waste my time pursuing something that I'm genuinely feeling may not be the right place for me to be in. I write this to show concern for many of fellow recent college graduates. I know many of you viewing this message board are recent college graduates. Unless you can find an internship, good luck finding work. I wish the best of luck to anyone who may be reading this who is in the same boat as me. I refuse to continue to let this hang over me.

Like I said, I'm on the verge of leaving the planning profession while I'm still young. There's still to right the ship. I'm not going to fully jump off, but chances are, the ship is beginning to sail away. I really am thankful for the opportunities that have been provided to me, but I entered planning to have a job, not to be an activist for the profession. So as I have said numerous times in this post, I want my fellow graduates who have not secured employment to take a long look at the career choice, and consider looking at alternatives to employment. I really do hope that this helps someone.

Thank you for reading this long post. I look forward to reading your comments. This is dialogue that is needed, not something that can be just ignored because it's negative or we're afraid to talk about it.

 

[MacheteJames]

It is a shrinking profession. Employment prospects have never bounced back to where they were pre-recession. I left a previous public sector job due to downsizing during the recession and took a job at a community development nonprofit for a few years. Have you looked there? They can always use people that can think like a planner. I am back in the field on the private sector side for the time being - probably until the next downturn and bloodletting. Planning is very cyclical.

Sorry that you have had a rough time of it.

 

[nam0806]

It is a shrinking profession. Employment prospects have never bounced back to where they were pre-recession. I left a previous public sector job due to downsizing during the recession and took a job at a community development nonprofit for a few years. Have you looked there? They can always use people that can think like a planner. I am back in the field on the private sector side for the time being - probably until the next downturn and bloodletting. Planning is very cyclical.

Sorry that you have had a rough time of it.

I have looked in both the public and private sector. Nothing has gotten me closer to a job offer.

 

[MacheteJames]

I have looked in both the public and private sector. Nothing has gotten me closer to a job offer.

Ever considered volunteering at an organization to get a foot in the door? It's not ideal, but I've seen it work. By organization, I really mean a nonprofit. Becoming involved on a local board of some kind is also a good route.

What are your skill-sets? i.e., in school, did you focus more on the policy side, or the design side, or both?

 

[nam0806]

Ever considered volunteering at an organization to get a foot in the door? It's not ideal, but I've seen it work. By organization, I really mean a nonprofit. Becoming involved on a local board of some kind is also a good route.

What are your skill-sets? i.e., in school, did you focus more on the policy side, or the design side, or both?

I'm not going to name cities specifically, but I've also offered my services for free. To volunteer at certain towns around where I live. They all told me that "they couldn't supervise" someone extra.

 

[nrschmid]

Let me start out by saying this.

I never wanted it to come down to this. I worked hard for 6 years earning my bachelor's and master's degree in City Planning. It was rewarding, fun, and it was great to get to learn something that was not common sense to most people. Seeing how different people operated, it was a great time.

But that was in the classroom. Not in real life. I think it's important to have this dialogue. I want to let all the college students know that they should carefully look at their career choice before they spend a lot of money on a college education. I graduated from Clemson University two years ago. I still do not have employment after continually applying to jobs in the field. From planning technician jobs to entry level planning jobs, transportation planner jobs, etc., I have applied to many planning jobs. All of the discussions that I have had with various planners have shown me time after time that I may have not made the right decision when it comes to getting my degree. The planning profession is not for those who are ready to be frustrated when getting out of school. I worked very hard to try and get internships. None were successful, and I applied to many jobs in many different parts of the country.

However, I am still young. I have many other potential opportunities that I can use to advance myself further. I am writing this to alert the college students who are considering planning, or are about to begin a potential career in urban planning. Carefully consider this post. I am not writing this out of frustration. I am writing this to show real concern about the state of planning profession. If someone in my boat who has two degrees in planning, has worked his tail off to find employment, and still can not, it tells you something. When I had discussions with planners, they were rude, inconsiderate, never returned phone calls/e-mails referring to the status of the position, many of them even lied about how their planning offices functioned!

This has gone on for 2 years now. I cannot continue to waste my time pursuing something that I'm genuinely feeling may not be the right place for me to be in. I write this to show concern for many of fellow recent college graduates. I know many of you viewing this message board are recent college graduates. Unless you can find an internship, good luck finding work. I wish the best of luck to anyone who may be reading this who is in the same boat as me. I refuse to continue to let this hang over me.

Like I said, I'm on the verge of leaving the planning profession while I'm still young. There's still to right the ship. I'm not going to fully jump off, but chances are, the ship is beginning to sail away. I really am thankful for the opportunities that have been provided to me, but I entered planning to have a job, not to be an activist for the profession. So as I have said numerous times in this post, I want my fellow graduates who have not secured employment to take a long look at the career choice, and consider looking at alternatives to employment. I really do hope that this helps someone.

Thank you for reading this long post. I look forward to reading your comments. This is dialogue that is needed, not something that can be just ignored because it's negative or we're afraid to talk about it.

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I've worked in the profession over the past decade, experienced multiple layoffs, briefly left the industry to work in oil and gas, only to land back here doing my passion, physical site design. I think you're post is very honest, and I agree that we planners, as industry leaders, are a major contributing factor to the instability in this profession. Having said that, I could easily blame myself for staying too focused on my own work and not looking out for others. I will be here at my job four years in June, and the last time I was at any job for more than a year let alone four ended in 2009!

I don't think there is a quick solution to your problem, at least not in the traditional find-a-planning-job-and-then-GO scenario. Take an assessment of your transferable skills and find similar professions that need those skills. In my case, I knew GIS and after my second layoff in Kansas I moved to Houston, spent a couple of months teaching myself the basics of oil and gas (4-5 years ago now) and then marketed my GIS skills to work in a landman firm. Planning is in a sad state of affairs. I focus far less time on this forum and moving onto other things. If I had to start over again, I'm not sure if I would really want to spend the time looking for a planner job, it's just too exhausting. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

 

[Hink]

Let me start out by saying this.

I never wanted it to come down to this. I worked hard for 6 years earning my bachelor's and master's degree in City Planning. It was rewarding, fun, and it was great to get to learn something that was not common sense to most people. Seeing how different people operated, it was a great time.

But that was in the classroom. Not in real life. I think it's important to have this dialogue. I want to let all the college students know that they should carefully look at their career choice before they spend a lot of money on a college education. I graduated from Clemson University two years ago. I still do not have employment after continually applying to jobs in the field. From planning technician jobs to entry level planning jobs, transportation planner jobs, etc., I have applied to many planning jobs. All of the discussions that I have had with various planners have shown me time after time that I may have not made the right decision when it comes to getting my degree. The planning profession is not for those who are ready to be frustrated when getting out of school. I worked very hard to try and get internships. None were successful, and I applied to many jobs in many different parts of the country.

However, I am still young. I have many other potential opportunities that I can use to advance myself further. I am writing this to alert the college students who are considering planning, or are about to begin a potential career in urban planning. Carefully consider this post. I am not writing this out of frustration. I am writing this to show real concern about the state of planning profession. If someone in my boat who has two degrees in planning, has worked his tail off to find employment, and still can not, it tells you something. When I had discussions with planners, they were rude, inconsiderate, never returned phone calls/e-mails referring to the status of the position, many of them even lied about how their planning offices functioned!

This has gone on for 2 years now. I cannot continue to waste my time pursuing something that I'm genuinely feeling may not be the right place for me to be in. I write this to show concern for many of fellow recent college graduates. I know many of you viewing this message board are recent college graduates. Unless you can find an internship, good luck finding work. I wish the best of luck to anyone who may be reading this who is in the same boat as me. I refuse to continue to let this hang over me.

Like I said, I'm on the verge of leaving the planning profession while I'm still young. There's still to right the ship. I'm not going to fully jump off, but chances are, the ship is beginning to sail away. I really am thankful for the opportunities that have been provided to me, but I entered planning to have a job, not to be an activist for the profession. So as I have said numerous times in this post, I want my fellow graduates who have not secured employment to take a long look at the career choice, and consider looking at alternatives to employment. I really do hope that this helps someone.

Thank you for reading this long post. I look forward to reading your comments. This is dialogue that is needed, not something that can be just ignored because it's negative or we're afraid to talk about it.

I can't argue with your experience. I would say two things that I have seen - 1. The economy is finally looking to turn upwards. There are more jobs around than since around 2008. That is a good thing. It certainly isn't at the same levels as before, as many State and local governments have become very tight with their money, but it does feel like things are getting better. And 2. The baby boomers WILL retire soon. They have to. They can't work forever, even though they keep trying. The boomer retirement period will leave lots of moving up opportunities. Which will leave lots of lower level positions open.

I think the recession did two bad things to our profession - it made all government agencies do "more with less". This hurt hiring the public and private sectors as outsourced work to the private sector shrunk too. It also meant that some people who would have normally retired didn't. They are working an extra 5 years to make sure they can retire comfortably. This hurts our profession twice. But it won't last forever.

If you are willing to relocate, there seem to be entry level planner positions all over the country. I know of at least 5 or so open now in Ohio. Experience is hard to earn when no one will let you get it, but it sounds like you are doing all the right things.

Good luck. Glad you shared.

 

[DVD]

All I can say is good luck. I've had to relocate from Arizona to Kansas just to keep working. I don't have much nice to say about Kansas. I can offer the usual advice, but I think you already know it. Be willing to move and be willing to work in a small town. Even in Kansas. Check all the job sites, local, county, state, federal. Check the local league of municipalities. Check on MPOs. Private sector searches should include architects and engineers. Non profit groups and housing departments (public and nonprofit) can use planners. Also try private companies that do due diligence work. Cell towers, etc. When I lost my job and did my job search I had every local city in about five major metro regions bookmarked and I checked them weekly for jobs. Not every city and especially private companies will announce it on an easy to find jobs database.

I think you're right for most students. Think twice before going into this career. Right now is a hard time to find work as we slowly recover from the recession. A lot of planners are playing musical jobs right now to work in the city they want to plus you're competing against planners who have a couple years experience and were laid off during the recession. On top of that you have to show potential employers that you're passionate about your work without showing that you're overly passionate and can't let go of decisions you don't like. I can only give you half assed excuses for the rude behavior of other planners. We're busy people and don't want to deal with the hiring process. Plus some people can get burned by stepping into the world of HR. Still, I've seen some weird crap out there that backs up what you're saying like getting a rejection letter before the job even closed. All you can do is keep trying.

My advice for any student or anyone looking for a job, get your resume and cover letter looked at. Do some mock interviews. It's hard for some of the mock interviews to relate to planning, but they still help. Contact a couple of your local chapter officers. They should be more willing to help go over some of this stuff.

Good luck.

 

[OfficialPlanner]

It's unfortunate, but dare I say planning schools have inadvertently sold some students a false bill of goods. Urban planning is romanticized in academia, but a lot of recent grads are left disillusioned when entering the workforce, usually for the first few years. The internship requirement that the accredited programs have help prepare students for day to day realities of being a planner, but can more be done in the academic setting?

Just an idea.. The business schools have classes in organisational behavior as part of their core curriculum. Could something similar work for planning - explaining the city/state/nonprofit roles, through the planning lens, and how they function internally and with externally with each other. This is something all of us eventually pick up on the job. However, would it be of any benefit to have a highly practical class like this juxtaposed to a class like Planning Theory? Just musing this morning

 

[DVD]

I had a class that explained the function of planning in the city, but it wasn't very good. My public admin degree had some better classes that explained organizational behavior in terms of how a city is organized, how different departments work or don't work together, and how the city handles things like the public, elected officials, etc. It's important to focus not only on good programs and things cities do well, but to show how and why cities fail at things.

 

[macagg]

Recovering Planner

I'm a long time lurker and really haven't felt a need to contribute until now. However, I highly encourage you to get out now. Leaving planning was one of the best things that ever happened to me.

For the past 6 years, I've been working in pipeline right of way and love it. Yeah, crude prices have many of us looking up at the Sword of Damocles a lot but that's life. I just obtained my real estate license and have been casting some nets elsewhere just to be safe. Starting a new career is scary and hard but so much of it is selling your transferable skills. GIS work always got me some looks during my transition.

For what it is worth, I left planning as a result of layoff (mostly a white collar force reduction) from my first and only planning job six years ago. I worked for a small city in the Greater Houston area 3.5 years right of grad school (MCRP). It was great in many ways and I was even a non-public safety "employee of the year" one year but even before my layoff I already was disheartened in the field for a variety of reasons. The biggest being that planning has opened it self to any and every one.

What other field lets outsiders with any or no degree test for its professional certification? What's the value of a BUP or MCRP if someone with an MPA or degrees in geography, economics, or Peruvian flute playing (sarcasm) can be in the applicant pool too? Fine, planning is multidisciplinary but why offer/sell a "professional" degree in something if any one can do it or call themselves planner. People get fined or go to jail for practicing law, medicine, engineering without the proper credentials. Every planning interloper that I knew or worked with got into the field because they failed at or couldn't break into their original profession. Our years of work is their fallback. Perhaps not the best way to start my first post here but I'm not sorry if any of the non planning degree planners here are offended by my comments. I am sorry if I hijacked things though.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[michaelskis]

I think that there is a lot of truth in what has been posted so far, however I do think that we are on the verge in a substantial shift. I personally know of 12 senior planners, planning directors, and private sector planners who will be retiring in the next 3 to 5 years. While that will not help people right now, I do think it will leave planners in high demand. I have seen signs of it already. I know of several communities that are looking for various planner levels, however however I do think experience at some level is an absolute must. If you can get a paid internship or even volunteer someplace for a while, it will help open the door. Get involved in different community planning projects, try to get appointed to your local planning commission, and attend planning conferences to network. You never know what that chance meeting might bring about.

 

[Whose Yur Planner]

Just an idea.. The business schools have classes in organisational behavior as part of their core curriculum. Could something similar work for planning - explaining the city/state/nonprofit roles, through the planning lens, and how they function internally and with externally with each other. This is something all of us eventually pick up on the job. However, would it be of any benefit to have a highly practical class like this juxtaposed to a class like Planning Theory? Just musing this morning

What you describe is public administration, which is what I have my degree in. That is due to my university got rid the the planning concentration. I ended up taking both planning and administration classes. If you go to a policy school, like mine is/was, you'll end up better more of the how planning fits into the over scheme perspective.

I'll echo what dvd said. You have to be willing to move. I've had five jobs scattered over three states in my nearly 28 year career. Currently I live a completely different part of the county and far away from where I grew up and spent part of my career. Some of the more podunk places can have some of the best work environments.

 

[gtpeach]

Yep - my degree's in public policy and several of our classes were cross-enrolled with the city planning department. I do think that's a really great background for planning. The policy courses focused heavily on considering and evaluating alternatives, and also understanding that the "best" decisions may not be feasible for political or practical reasons. I also think that all planning students should be required to attend planning commission and board meetings for a semester - it still won't prepare students for working in the environment, but it will at least expose them to it.

I think planning is a broad enough field that a variety of degrees CAN be directly applicable to the job. While I probably would've enjoyed planning theory and history courses, the reality in my rural county is that they really don't want a lot of intervention and "pro-activeness" from staff. They want to bring problems to us, or else come up with ideas and hand them over to us to implement. I would also say that I didn't "fall back" into planning, but I fell into it because it was one of the few positions that related to my education and past work experience in the area that I wanted to live. And sure enough, it's a great fit for me. Through studying for the AICP exam, I did learn a lot of background information on the history and theory and legal development of the field.

I do feel for y'all's situations. I know that I am personally more than willing to help anyone out that contacts me, but just because I have a job as a county planner doesn't mean I have the ability to get other planners jobs. I have contacts, I'm happy to share information, I'd even be more than willing to take an intern, but I can't create jobs where we don't have any available. I have a feeling that if you look in the more rural areas, you'll probably find that people do have more time/willingness to help you.

Good luck!

 

[Yandong]

Try another country

You may wish to try a different country like Asia, MiddleEast, Canada...

 

[flbeachgirl]

As has been stated up-thread, you MUST be willing to move. I started out living in Texas, where I got my education. Then I moved to Florida's west coast, then back to Texas, then to Florida's east coast, then back to Florida's west coast. I'm hoping I'm finally done changing zip codes, but you just never know.

 

[TheBostonian]

Your experience absolutely sucks and I am sorry to hear about your struggle. I actually think the worst part is how you have been disrespected by planners you contact. It's just not right to mistreat people who are in a position of weakness.

Two years is a long time to go without getting a job in the field and it is reasonable to consider giving up. I don't know if I can offer anything that you haven't already tried. I used a shotgun approach when I first looked for planning work. While I was applying for planning jobs and getting nowhere, I took an unpaid internship and volunteered at some non-profits. There are non-profits that will take any volunteer. These things, even though they were not completely on target with my interests, plugged me into the network. Also, consider clerical and administrative jobs where you might like to eventually work as a planner. And put some energy into dealing with your weak points. For example, just as someone can be awful at interviewing or writing cover letters, you can also improve at these things.

 

[nam0806]

As has been stated up-thread, you MUST be willing to move. I started out living in Texas, where I got my education. Then I moved to Florida's west coast, then back to Texas, then to Florida's east coast, then back to Florida's west coast. I'm hoping I'm finally done changing zip codes, but you just never know.

I am willing to move. I've applied to jobs all over the United States. In all regions, from Alaska to home in North Carolina. That is not an issue..

Your experience absolutely sucks and I am sorry to hear about your struggle. I actually think the worst part is how you have been disrespected by planners you contact. It's just not right to mistreat people who are in a position of weakness.

Two years is a long time to go without getting a job in the field and it is reasonable to consider giving up. I don't know if I can offer anything that you haven't already tried. I used a shotgun approach when I first looked for planning work. While I was applying for planning jobs and getting nowhere, I took an unpaid internship and volunteered at some non-profits. There are non-profits that will take any volunteer. These things, even though they were not completely on target with my interests, plugged me into the network. Also, consider clerical and administrative jobs where you might like to eventually work as a planner. And put some energy into dealing with your weak points. For example, just as someone can be awful at interviewing or writing cover letters, you can also improve at these things.

Another thing is, the position that I just applied to in a certain location, said they didn't have the money to fill a position. A few months later, a position is reopened after the money suddenly comes in. The lies are rampant. But you're right. I have applied to positions in another industry and already have obtained 5+ interviews. In a field completely unrelated to planning.

You may wish to try a different country like Asia, MiddleEast, Canada...

I have applied to a few jobs in Asia. Such as Japan.

Yep - my degree's in public policy and several of our classes were cross-enrolled with the city planning department. I do think that's a really great background for planning. The policy courses focused heavily on considering and evaluating alternatives, and also understanding that the "best" decisions may not be feasible for political or practical reasons. I also think that all planning students should be required to attend planning commission and board meetings for a semester - it still won't prepare students for working in the environment, but it will at least expose them to it.

I think planning is a broad enough field that a variety of degrees CAN be directly applicable to the job. While I probably would've enjoyed planning theory and history courses, the reality in my rural county is that they really don't want a lot of intervention and "pro-activeness" from staff. They want to bring problems to us, or else come up with ideas and hand them over to us to implement. I would also say that I didn't "fall back" into planning, but I fell into it because it was one of the few positions that related to my education and past work experience in the area that I wanted to live. And sure enough, it's a great fit for me. Through studying for the AICP exam, I did learn a lot of background information on the history and theory and legal development of the field.

I do feel for y'all's situations. I know that I am personally more than willing to help anyone out that contacts me, but just because I have a job as a county planner doesn't mean I have the ability to get other planners jobs. I have contacts, I'm happy to share information, I'd even be more than willing to take an intern, but I can't create jobs where we don't have any available. I have a feeling that if you look in the more rural areas, you'll probably find that people do have more time/willingness to help you.

Good luck!

Thank you for your post. I fully agree. To add to your point, I'm not a fan of the history classes. I feel like if planning is about the future, then we need to focus more on that.

I think that there is a lot of truth in what has been posted so far, however I do think that we are on the verge in a substantial shift. I personally know of 12 senior planners, planning directors, and private sector planners who will be retiring in the next 3 to 5 years. While that will not help people right now, I do think it will leave planners in high demand. I have seen signs of it already. I know of several communities that are looking for various planner levels, however however I do think experience at some level is an absolute must. If you can get a paid internship or even volunteer someplace for a while, it will help open the door. Get involved in different community planning projects, try to get appointed to your local planning commission, and attend planning conferences to network. You never know what that chance meeting might bring about.

This is a good post. However, I've been out of school for two years now. I have decided to look at my other skills that I can use to further my career. I've attempted contacting various planning agencies around me, just to volunteer. Basically what I was told was that I couldn't even volunteer/intern for them without getting school credits for it. If that's the case, then the only way I'll be able to get experience is someone hiring me on a full time basis. I guess we'll see, but I'm not holding my breath at this point.

I'm a long time lurker and really haven't felt a need to contribute until now. However, I highly encourage you to get out now. Leaving planning was one of the best things that ever happened to me.

For the past 6 years, I've been working in pipeline right of way and love it. Yeah, crude prices have many of us looking up at the Sword of Damocles a lot but that's life. I just obtained my real estate license and have been casting some nets elsewhere just to be safe. Starting a new career is scary and hard but so much of it is selling your transferable skills. GIS work always got me some looks during my transition.

For what it is worth, I left planning as a result of layoff (mostly a white collar force reduction) from my first and only planning job six years ago. I worked for a small city in the Greater Houston area 3.5 years right of grad school (MCRP). It was great in many ways and I was even a non-public safety "employee of the year" one year but even before my layoff I already was disheartened in the field for a variety of reasons. The biggest being that planning has opened it self to any and every one.

What other field lets outsiders with any or no degree test for its professional certification? What's the value of a BUP or MCRP if someone with an MPA or degrees in geography, economics, or Peruvian flute playing (sarcasm) can be in the applicant pool too? Fine, planning is multidisciplinary but why offer/sell a "professional" degree in something if any one can do it or call themselves planner. People get fined or go to jail for practicing law, medicine, engineering without the proper credentials. Every planning interloper that I knew or worked with got into the field because they failed at or couldn't break into their original profession. Our years of work is their fallback. Perhaps not the best way to start my first post here but I'm not sorry if any of the non planning degree planners here are offended by my comments. I am sorry if I hijacked things though.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Thank you for being honest. Yeah, it is scary, but it is required for me. The last month for me has been spent looking at other industries to find out what other skills I could use to further my career. I'll post in another post about where I stand from here.

It's unfortunate, but dare I say planning schools have inadvertently sold some students a false bill of goods. Urban planning is romanticized in academia, but a lot of recent grads are left disillusioned when entering the workforce, usually for the first few years. The internship requirement that the accredited programs have help prepare students for day to day realities of being a planner, but can more be done in the academic setting?

Just an idea.. The business schools have classes in organisational behavior as part of their core curriculum. Could something similar work for planning - explaining the city/state/nonprofit roles, through the planning lens, and how they function internally and with externally with each other. This is something all of us eventually pick up on the job. However, would it be of any benefit to have a highly practical class like this juxtaposed to a class like Planning Theory? Just musing this morning

This is the absolute biggest problem I have in urban planning. I'm not even in the workforce yet, and I've come to the conclusion after I've met with various planning agencies across the country that I may have made a mistake when getting my degree. I think in the academic areas, they should express how difficult it may be to get a job down the road. Although it may be a poor choice for them to express this concern, I think it'd be helpful to show that concern to students.

I can't argue with your experience. I would say two things that I have seen - 1. The economy is finally looking to turn upwards. There are more jobs around than since around 2008. That is a good thing. It certainly isn't at the same levels as before, as many State and local governments have become very tight with their money, but it does feel like things are getting better. And 2. The baby boomers WILL retire soon. They have to. They can't work forever, even though they keep trying. The boomer retirement period will leave lots of moving up opportunities. Which will leave lots of lower level positions open.

I think the recession did two bad things to our profession - it made all government agencies do "more with less". This hurt hiring the public and private sectors as outsourced work to the private sector shrunk too. It also meant that some people who would have normally retired didn't. They are working an extra 5 years to make sure they can retire comfortably. This hurts our profession twice. But it won't last forever.

If you are willing to relocate, there seem to be entry level planner positions all over the country. I know of at least 5 or so open now in Ohio. Experience is hard to earn when no one will let you get it, but it sounds like you are doing all the right things.

Good luck. Glad you shared.

With the bolded statement, I have seen many planning jobs that claim to be entry-level, but ask for 2 years of experience. Although my graduate degree allegedly counts for that experience, they come back later and say it doesn't.

 

[nasund]

The RARE program in Oregon is a great way to build up your resume

http://rare.uoregon.edu/

The mission of the Resource Assistance for Rural Environments (RARE) Program is to increase the capacity of rural communities to improve their economic, social, and environmental conditions, through the assistance of trained graduate-level participants who live and work in communities for 11 months. Participants assist communities and agencies in the development and implementation of plans for achieving a sustainable natural resource base and improving rural economic conditions while gaining community building and leadership skills.

 

[RandomPlanner]

I can't argue with your experience. I would say two things that I have seen - 1. The economy is finally looking to turn upwards. There are more jobs around than since around 2008. ....

Agreed. I have 15 years planning experience and last year, I was unemployed (ended up doing consulting). In 2012, I applied to over 100 jobs before I found one. It's a rough world out there in planning but it's getting better with the economy!

As has been stated up-thread, you MUST be willing to move...

Or if not be willing to move, be willing to take what you can get. For family reasons, I'm not able to move. So I took a job that required 2 years experience (did I mention I have 15?). I'm working; I'm in the community where I want to live; though it's not ideal, I'm not complaining.

Have you expanded your search to beyond that basic Planner job titles? I've always had a generic title but I've found that different municipalities have weird titles. Neighborhood Coordinator? Community liaison? Zoning technician? GIS technician? Try them all!

 

[DVD]

Agreed. I have 15 years planning experience and last year, I was unemployed (ended up doing consulting). In 2012, I applied to over 100 jobs before I found one. It's a rough world out there in planning but it's getting better with the economy!


Or if not be willing to move, be willing to take what you can get. For family reasons, I'm not able to move. So I took a job that required 2 years experience (did I mention I have 15?). I'm working; I'm in the community where I want to live; though it's not ideal, I'm not complaining.

Have you expanded your search to beyond that basic Planner job titles? I've always had a generic title but I've found that different municipalities have weird titles. Neighborhood Coordinator? Community liaison? Zoning technician? GIS technician? Try them all!

I'm actually looking at a possible pay cut to move to the city I want to live. That's if I can get someone to hire me. I'm competing against people with equal or more experience and no moving expenses.

I also have to agree with checking other job titles. I started as a planning tech and was renamed assistant planner. My current assistant planner is called an Admin Assistant, but don't be fooled by the title. I know what work she does. It's a remnant from what the position originally was and has never been relabeled to something more accurate.

Also remember public agencies do things a bit different in the hiring process. Because they are required to post the job publicly a lot of times they go through the motions even though they already know exactly who's getting the job.
For instance, I applied to one place and was given the notice that they selected someone else before the job was even fully closed. Dead give away that they had someone else in mind, but they still have to accept applications and some will even do a round of interviews.

 

[nam0806]

I'm actually looking at a possible pay cut to move to the city I want to live. That's if I can get someone to hire me. I'm competing against people with equal or more experience and no moving expenses.

I also have to agree with checking other job titles. I started as a planning tech and was renamed assistant planner. My current assistant planner is called an Admin Assistant, but don't be fooled by the title. I know what work she does. It's a remnant from what the position originally was and has never been relabeled to something more accurate.

Also remember public agencies do things a bit different in the hiring process. Because they are required to post the job publicly a lot of times they go through the motions even though they already know exactly who's getting the job.
For instance, I applied to one place and was given the notice that they selected someone else before the job was even fully closed. Dead give away that they had someone else in mind, but they still have to accept applications and some will even do a round of interviews.

This actually has happened to me, many times. It was clear that the agency had someone else in mind before.

Let's be honest here, this is an honest thread with honest concerns.

I have two degrees in planning. I have been on many interviews in various parts of the country. Moving around is not a concern for me. I would go to various parts of the world if I had to, in order to find work. Reality is that, I've been looking for employment for a full time, non intern position, non volunteer job. If I wanted that, it should have happened many years ago when I was in a better position to get that experience. Now that I've been out of school for two years, there is no incentive for me, at this point, to accept an internship where I'd be working part time to gather real life planning experience. Some of the reasons are simple enough. They are:

a) I could not support myself on a part-time basis. I've seen some places where $13/hr was the posted salary. I could work part time in some retail locations for that kind of money.
b) Some internships are really "Planner I" jobs in disguise from my experience. Why would I do the same work a Planner I does for significantly less pay, no guaranteed hours, and no absolute guarantee of future placement within the agency? The stress level would be tremendous to perform well and I wouldn't want to subject myself to that. This doesn't suggest I haven't looked for this type of work, but shows some of the things I will talk about later.

Now before anyone says anything, I've spent time in North Carolina looking for work in particular. I live here. It is most practical to find work in this state. I have visited planning agencies asking for volunteer and internship opportunities. I've been given a few excuses about why positions haven't worked out. These include:

a) We can't hire someone for an internship opportunity that is not gathering school credit for the work.
b) The funding has dried up for this particular job posting.
c) We don't want to have to supervise a volunteer/intern at this time.
d) The position has been cancelled for an undisclosed reason or period of time.
e) Some positions never got back at all. Even with continuous communication made for weeks after interviews.
f) The job description was not fully accurate. An entry-level position was posted with "no experience required". They indeed told me during the interview they were seeking candidates with 2+ years experience only.

I understand that money plays a huge role in hiring someone. That goes with any job in any field. But, I have spent two years in the search for work. There is something truly concerning about the planning field, and I haven't even entered it professionally yet. Some are saying "it's getting better" or "things look positive for the future". I don't see it. I'm sorry. Someone that is in my boat should have been able to find at a minimum an internship opportunity at this point, after two years of being out of work. There are some concerns that I have for my job search as well. They include:

a) Maybe I am not looking in the right places for work. I have tried pretty much every APA chapter website, APA national website, planetizen, urbanplanningnow, cyburbia's job board, indeed, monster, governmentjobs, usajobs, etc.. I also have visited planning agencies in person, asking for advice, and potential openings down the road that may come up. They provided me with one of the excuses that I mentioned earlier. I have gone to temporary agenices to see if they had any leads as well.
b) Maybe, just maybe, the planning field is not growing as much as hoped, especially for the entry-level professionals. I have seen many jobs for executives, and even many for mid-level professionals. Obviously, I am not at the point to apply for these positions, so they do me no good.

With all of this said, I don't want to look like I am making excuses for me not being able to find work in the planning field. At the end of the day, it is up to me. I have just exhausted all the possible avenues that I know of now to find work. This is why I have started this thread, to explain my reasoning to others of why I'm seriously considering leaving the planning profession. I attribute a lot of the blame to myself, but when you've been diligent and everyday for 2 years trying to find work and nothing works, you get frustrated. That is where I am at. I also put some blame on my graduate program. Most of you know I attended Clemson University, and I am not afraid to post that. Here's some of the issues I have with Clemson's MCRP program.

a) They put entirely too much emphasis on the terminal project/thesis, and less on actual professional practice. I was in graduate school to find work at the end. Not to write a 65-75+ page report on something that has obviously not helped me.
b) The professors were not engaging enough when it came to networking. When asked on if they had leads on potential work opportunities, I was not given an answer. I should have thrown the red flag up then about the lack of communication that was given to me, and the blatant dishonesty.
c) Internship opportunities were required for the degree. However, I was given a pass, because I could not find one. I took an independent study class to make up for that credit. Here's what I though would've been such a better idea for the program. Set up the students with internships! Ensure EVERY student has professional practice experience before graduating. You can contact local communities, and they can work with students to give them some practical experience Instead of making students find their own, they should have done this. It would've gotten their feet in the door at a minimum.
d) The professors were just rude and inconsiderate in general. I was constantly disparaged and spoken to in a condescending down on multiple occasions. Sometimes in front of the entire class.

Although my interest in planning is still very high, it is falling dramatically. I've been given some of the best advice I've ever received in the last two years. Not to give up, but look at your interests, look at your skills that you can use that are transferable to other industries, and work hard. Do things that you enjoy. Don't make excuses, keep working hard. I have had to keep a high mental stamina over the last year. I was just told the other day that I am the most mentally stable person that they have met by someone. Listen, I am here because I want to let everyone/new students/new professionals know a few things.

a) Do your research into urban planning before getting into the profession. I should've done a better job with that, and I am paying for it considerably, both financially and mentally.
b) If you do decide to enter the urban planning profession, look at programs that emphasize professional practice rather than terminal projects/theses. You will be glad you did down the road.
c) Understand the planning profession is cyclical. There will be better times than others. I just happened to be entering it at a time that was what I consider poor timing. The entry-level jobs are hard to come by.
d) Look at jobs in rural places. The cost of living will almost certainly be better, and the competition for the jobs will be less fierce. You will have a better chance at finding a job or at least landing an interview(s).
e) Consider a dual degree or minoring in something practical. You never know what will be out there if you don't look.
f) Go to networking conferences as much as you can, because that will help you. It's not always about what you know, but who you know.
g) Learn new skills and keep your skills fresh from school. I am trying to do that by taking classes at the community college. I feel like it has helped me tremendously.
h) Make sure you have a true, genuine interest in urban planning. If you don't, you'll find yourself in considerable debt down the road for something that you can't find work in, and have no interest in.
i) Show consideration to everyone. Holding the door open for someone, being forthcoming and honest with someone, and just being genuine, will go a long way in building trust and a good relationship with people.
j) Finally, don't take work so seriously. If you can't find work, go for a bike ride, or a walk, or go sightseeing, visit friends. It's important to keep your mind fresh every so often in that you wont worry yourself.

So, as I come to the end of this post, I can say I have looked at my transferable skills, and I can report that I have already received 5+ interviews for full time positions in an industry completely unrelated to planning. I have decided to at least pursue these opportunities to see where they might lead. This is why it is so important to look at your individual skills. You just never know where they may lead. I know that this post is long, and I appreciate the replies that I have gotten. I think it's a good thing that we are having this discussion, because new professionals.and students who are considering urban planning need something to read from someone who has seen the hardships with planning. It's not easy in a field such as this one. But, if this thread made someone look at planning more closely than they had before, this is a success.

So I am going to leave you with this. Be honest with yourself. Know when it is time for a change, regardless of what it may be. You can't live thinking "what may have been if...". I learned this, and followed other opportunities. I am not suggesting that you don't weigh all the consequences of making change. Just know that when you feel it is time to look at the other opportunities, don't disregard it. Take it into consideration. If you choose to go into a new phase of your life, take it on with full force. Don't feel bad either if you decide to stay with your current place in life. Just enjoy it as much as you can. You only get one life on Earth. Enjoy it.

 

[Veloise]

A few Cyburbians have found career steps in the wonderful world of wireless. It's mercurial (don't go buying a house on the assurance of "this is an 18-month project") but the checks clear. HTH

http://www.telecomcareers.net

 

[AG74683]

Have you signed up for the NC Plan email listserv?

http://lists.unc.edu/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=ncplan

There are pretty regular job postings on there, and with the new budget year getting ready to open up, we'll probably see more opportunities.

 

[RandomPlanner]

Let's be honest here, this is an honest thread with honest concerns.
.... Here's some of the issues I have with Clemson's MCRP program.

a) They put entirely too much emphasis on the terminal project/thesis, and less on actual professional practice. I was in graduate school to find work at the end. Not to write a 65-75+ page report on something that has obviously not helped me...

If we're being honest here, my thesis topic (that I chose, wholely and completely on my own) has led me to several professional contacts outside of planning as well as more than one job interview. I picked my thesis topic because I was interested in it -- even though it was a little on the fringe of planning and more than once, I was questioned about it.

A classmate of mine in grad school actually got her planning job 90% based on her thesis. She had taken one class that touched on the subject, she wanted to know more, so she researched her heart out for her thesis. Now that's what she does for a living!

I spent a good 9 months in grad school working more-or-less on my thesis. That being said, I also had a school that emphasized internships, and (if we're being completely honest), I had more than 10 years experience in planning before grad school. So maybe I'm not a good example.

My point is this -- you could have done something with your thesis. You still could. Have you reached out to your thesis committee/ others in that research field for job leads?

 

[NHPlanner]

My thesis and internship led to many networking opportunities. My internship had me develop the first cell tower ordinance in NH (for the community I interned for, won a Chapter APA award for it)...which led me to my thesis (developing a model ordinance, won Outstanding Thesis award at graduation)...which led to several speaking gigs at conferences...equaled networking opportunities that led to my first job.

So I agree with RandomPlanner, you get out of your internship and thesis what you put into it. It also helped to be aggressive well prior to needing to have my internship...I contacted the community I interned in over a year ahead of time, and got to know the director...which led to the internship a year later (despite going to school in IN and the internship being in NH).

 

[nam0806]

If we're being honest here, my thesis topic (that I chose, wholely and completely on my own) has led me to several professional contacts outside of planning as well as more than one job interview. I picked my thesis topic because I was interested in it -- even though it was a little on the fringe of planning and more than once, I was questioned about it.

A classmate of mine in grad school actually got her planning job 90% based on her thesis. She had taken one class that touched on the subject, she wanted to know more, so she researched her heart out for her thesis. Now that's what she does for a living!

I spent a good 9 months in grad school working more-or-less on my thesis. That being said, I also had a school that emphasized internships, and (if we're being completely honest), I had more than 10 years experience in planning before grad school. So maybe I'm not a good example.

My point is this -- you could have done something with your thesis. You still could. Have you reached out to your thesis committee/ others in that research field for job leads?

Here's my point with your post. I actually did incorporate my thesis into interviews. I talked about the project, my methodology, the stakeholders with the project, and the final results. Just a basic synopsis. I'll give you a summary of what happened during my thesis production that hopefully gives you a picture into exactly what happened. The first semester went well, and I was given the okay for the proposal after presenting it to the faculty at Clemson.In January of 2014, I came up with a schedule to show my progress to the committee leader, as well as the secondary member of my committee. We planned to meet at a specific time and place every week from January until April at the defense. This time was on Tuesday's at 2 PM in the committee's office. The first meeting went as scheduled, and began the process of moving forward with the project.

However, the second meeting was cancelled with no reason given. So, I call him and leave a message saying, I'll return at this time, please let me know when is best for me to come in and visit. This continued for several weeks as I was unable to meet with anyone with my committee, as they seemed too "busy" to meet with me during a major part of the degree. In February, I found out my committee members were out with the flu and could not meet with me. So here I am, left cold and dry trying to work on this project without any guidance whatsoever, the only member of the class that this happened to. I had to delay my defense until the end of April and almost did not graduate on time because of this issue. I was working on the final part of the project after I was able to walk at graduation, including the final proofreading.

I am glad that things worked out for you and your friend. That's great! But it doesn't work out that way for everyone. I spent 9 months as well working on mine. I have used it in all subsequent interviews I had after completing it. The point I'm making is this. This was TWO years ago. TWO. I am reading it constantly just to be able to explain it to others and not forget exactly what I did. The problem is this. I have worked and long and hard, just like everyone else has. I respect your opinions on this subject. To answer your final question, yes I have. I have made continuous conversation with my committee, asking for leads. I have not even gotten a call back from them. Or e-mail. Anything. This is why I am posting that my education did not provide me with the necessary skills to get a job. Maybe interviews, but not jobs. That's the goal.

My thesis and internship led to many networking opportunities. My internship had me develop the first cell tower ordinance in NH (for the community I interned for, won a Chapter APA award for it)...which led me to my thesis (developing a model ordinance, won Outstanding Thesis award at graduation)...which led to several speaking gigs at conferences...equaled networking opportunities that led to my first job.

So I agree with RandomPlanner, you get out of your internship and thesis what you put into it. It also helped to be aggressive well prior to needing to have my internship...I contacted the community I interned in over a year ahead of time, and got to know the director...which led to the internship a year later (despite going to school in IN and the internship being in NH).

Thank you for your post. It is appreciated. I was aggressive long before needing an internship. As early as 2010, I was looking at places I could intern with or ask for volunteer opportunities. If you read my post from the other day, you will see some of the excuses that I was given regarding this. I was aggressive. Calling as many people as I could, as often as I could, without bothering them. The honest truth is that, I have been applying to all types of jobs, These include part time and full time, seasonal, temporary, permanent, public, private, closely related to planning, loosely related to planning, internships, and volunteering opportunities. They have included jobs all over the country, including a few international jobs out of the United States. Someone with two degrees, with a good thesis topic, who is willing to work hard and show they have the skills in planning, should be able to find at a minimum an internship.

Back in 2010, I had no access to transportation. That has changed at this point. But, that played a major role in me being limited to what I could find. I had to stay within a few miles of my current location. Now it;s 2016, and I am able to follow leads whenever they do arrive. Like I said earlier, a part time job in urban planning would have been good for me in 2010, when I was actually in a better position to take a part time job. My goals have changed 6 years later. Although I'd consider a part time job in planning if it ever came up, which it has not after many years of looking for jobs, the ultimate goal is a full time planning job. My job search really began in earnest in 2012. It did because I did not want to spend a lot of money getting a degree in urban planning. Nothing worked out, so i decided to accept my offer to Clemson in March 2012.

In reality, things may have worked out for both you and Random Planner, but it doesn't always work that way for everyone. I am glad you were able to find work in planning. I really am. But, as I said in my earlier post, I have spent the better part of 8 years dedicating myself to the planning profession, both in academic and professional platforms, and no job has worked out. This has included a lot of effort in working on various projects and searching for work. I've accepted reality. That is why I took a month between posting this thread originally, and reappearing a month later. I listened to the advice of people that are really close to me, to the advice of some planning professionals in areas around where I live, and just taking some time to think about what I really wanted to do with my life. I've come to the conclusion that I am not completely withdrawing myself from planning, but I have decided to look at transferable skills to jobs outside of planning. This has led to interviews almost immediately. To full time jobs. That would be extremely less stressful than most any planning job I've applied to already. This includes probably hundreds of jobs that I have to already in planning/ I am excited about these opportunities.

I know that this is a planning message board. I have been posting here since taking the GRE 5 years ago. I just feel like it is important to let the readers of this message board know that it is important to look at alternative views to this profession. Most of you have big hearts that are dedicated to the planning profession. If I was in your boat, I would be too. But, I don't have many years of experience in city planning. I have none. I don't really have as much of an emotional attachment to it. This is why I began looking at all alternatives to employment in planning. Just by doing that, I have opened many doors. I am excited about that, as well. So once again, thank you for your responses. I appreciate it greatly! This has given me a lot of ways to look at the current situation, and where to go from here.

A few Cyburbians have found career steps in the wonderful world of wireless. It's mercurial (don't go buying a house on the assurance of "this is an 18-month project") but the checks clear. HTH

http://www.telecomcareers.net

Thank you for this post. I actually have looked into this. I was not impressed at an initial viewpoint. I am willing to look at this moving forward though. I guess we will see.

Have you signed up for the NC Plan email listserv?

http://lists.unc.edu/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=ncplan

There are pretty regular job postings on there, and with the new budget year getting ready to open up, we'll probably see more opportunities.

Thank you for this post! I haven't seen this, and will subscribe to this.

If we're being honest here, my thesis topic (that I chose, wholely and completely on my own) has led me to several professional contacts outside of planning as well as more than one job interview. I picked my thesis topic because I was interested in it -- even though it was a little on the fringe of planning and more than once, I was questioned about it.

A classmate of mine in grad school actually got her planning job 90% based on her thesis. She had taken one class that touched on the subject, she wanted to know more, so she researched her heart out for her thesis. Now that's what she does for a living!

I spent a good 9 months in grad school working more-or-less on my thesis. That being said, I also had a school that emphasized internships, and (if we're being completely honest), I had more than 10 years experience in planning before grad school. So maybe I'm not a good example.

My point is this -- you could have done something with your thesis. You still could. Have you reached out to your thesis committee/ others in that research field for job leads?

I wanted to add something to this post. I am going to post what I did my thesis on. I chose this idea, fully, and completely, on my own. No guidance whatsoever. It was something that I decided to do after considering my interests within the field of urban planning. This was my topic:

I conducted research relating to the financial benefits of owning single family homes and their associated properties to various community facilities such as major roads, major shopping centers, schools, and greenways/open spaces. I determined that there was a negative benefit of being adjacent to each of the community facilities. I used a hedonic formula to measure which variables had more of an influence on property values. These variables were categorized in the different ways such as neighborhood characteristics (median age of neighbors, median income of neighbors), structural characteristics (bedrooms, bathrooms, size of structure, lot size), and locational characteristics (distance to schools, major roads, shopping centers, and parks). This work was put into a report format that easily made the information clear for the reader. I used Microsoft Excel, Access, and ArcGIS for visual representation of the data.

Some of the projects that were done did not include the amount of analysis that I needed. Also, include the fact that I had to do virtually all of this on my own while my committee members suddenly fell ill during the semester I was working on the analysis. Of course, I have incorporated this during my interviews. I used this as much as I could during this process. Just take this all into consideration before making an assumption about what I can/cannot, will/will not, should/should not do.

 

[luckless pedestrian]

You may want to think about allied professions - the cell tower idea is a good one also think about state/federal jobs in agriculture, housing, conservation/environment, community development, economic development offices - or, alternative energy, broadband companies as these industries are growing - site selection companies

I am sorry this is happening to you and that you have been met with some off situations - as the last year of the boomer age group, I can tell you we planners are retiring and sadly, recently, dying off - so if you can get something in an allied field, then you can keep your resume warm and get something in a few years

 

[nam0806]

You may want to think about allied professions - the cell tower idea is a good one also think about state/federal jobs in agriculture, housing, conservation/environment, community development, economic development offices - or, alternative energy, broadband companies as these industries are growing - site selection companies

I am sorry this is happening to you and that you have been met with some off situations - as the last year of the boomer age group, I can tell you we planners are retiring and sadly, recently, dying off - so if you can get something in an allied field, then you can keep your resume warm and get something in a few years

Thank you for posting. I hope to find something sooner than a few years from now. Like I said, I have looked at another industry for employment, and so far, I have obtained a few interviews. We will see.

 

[Veloise]

You may want to think about allied professions - the cell tower idea is a good one also think about state/federal jobs in agriculture, housing, conservation/environment, community development, economic development offices - or, alternative energy, broadband companies as these industries are growing - site selection companies
...

Site acquisition for major retailers is another possibility. I've seen ads for project manager work very similar to what I did for the "fifth carrier," except for companies that won't be Pac-Manned up by others. Fast food companies, hypermart grocers, food distributors, all needing someone who could understand the zoning involved in site selection and approval.

 

[nam0806]

Site acquisition for major retailers is another possibility. I've seen ads for project manager work very similar to what I did for the "fifth carrier," except for companies that won't be Pac-Manned up by others. Fast food companies, hypermart grocers, food distributors, all needing someone who could understand the zoning involved in site selection and approval.

Thank you for your post. I have looked at as many opportunities as I have been able. I'm just getting exhausted. As has been stated, I looked at other opportunities, and I have already have obtained multiple interviews in this new industry. I am pursuing those opportunities. These interviews will begin tomorrow, and I feel that this will be a better way moving forward.

 

[Whose Yur Planner]

Thank you for your post. I have looked at as many opportunities as I have been able. I'm just getting exhausted. As has been stated, I looked at other opportunities, and I have already have obtained multiple interviews in this new industry. I am pursuing those opportunities. These interviews will begin tomorrow, and I feel that this will be a better way moving forward.

Good luck

 

[nam0806]

Good luck

Thank you. I have obtained, once again, another interview for another position in the same industry that I have been talking about. That interview is scheduled for Wednesday. This interview is for a position that is in no way, shape, or form, related to urban planning. We will see what happens.

 

[Slideruler]

Experience counts

To the O.P.

During my time in planning school, most of us had a number of years work experience already behind our belts in addition to an undergraduate degree. The graduate school experience was so much richer for those of us that were older and had more work experience and I think planning employers like that experience. The few classmates who went straight from undergrad to graduate school had a more difficult time understanding some things though and had a less keen sense of the real world. I honestly opine that it is a grave mistake for anyone to go straight to planning school from college, even the university president who was actually a nominal instructor in our department said so and I also don't think it is a good idea for anyone to enter the planning field unless they have several years work experience in at least another field. Planning is a profession with many important responsibilities and many employers don't trust really young newly graduated individuals to take on those responsibilities. One of my classmates was brilliant at GIS, Sketchup, and other programs and was very knowledgeable about environmental planning and landscape planning but the string of internships and temporary positions over the two years after college probably hurt her more than helped. Employers probably wondered why she shuffled through so many positions. I myself cut my teeth as a substitute teacher for four years before planning school but that experience enriched me to the extent that both my graduate alma mater and my current employer said they liked hearing about it even though it was marginally related to planning. Why you might ask? It is because substitute teaching involves a high degree of responsibility and human interaction. It is a ways away from being a mere office clerk. One thing is for sure though, planning is a competitive field. My boss told me one I beat out over 200 other applicants for the position. Planning director positions are always in demand because not everyone has the skills and experience to be a director but entry level positions are so hard to come by. Remember just like offering an internship, an employer puts in an awful amount of investment in offering an entry level position.This person has to get trained and brought up to speed until they can prove they are the right fit.

So maybe it is time to walk away from the planning profession at least for a short while. There are other fields that you can apply your planning skills to that might draw you back into planning later on in life. Have you considered anything in operations such as parking operations, shuttle operations, land surveying, or facilities operations. Heck maybe even try substitute teaching in an urban district like I did. At leas you'll get a wealth of knowledge about urban communities and get that management and human interaction experience that is so needed in planning. I think what you really need is work experience. An urban planning degree does not operate the same as a finance or engineering degree where companies may hire solely based on what you learned in school.

 

[nam0806]

To the O.P.

During my time in planning school, most of us had a number of years work experience already behind our belts in addition to an undergraduate degree. The graduate school experience was so much richer for those of us that were older and had more work experience and I think planning employers like that experience. The few classmates who went straight from undergrad to graduate school had a more difficult time understanding some things though and had a less keen sense of the real world. I honestly opine that it is a grave mistake for anyone to go straight to planning school from college, even the university president who was actually a nominal instructor in our department said so and I also don't think it is a good idea for anyone to enter the planning field unless they have several years work experience in at least another field. Planning is a profession with many important responsibilities and many employers don't trust really young newly graduated individuals to take on those responsibilities. One of my classmates was brilliant at GIS, Sketchup, and other programs and was very knowledgeable about environmental planning and landscape planning but the string of internships and temporary positions over the two years after college probably hurt her more than helped. Employers probably wondered why she shuffled through so many positions. I myself cut my teeth as a substitute teacher for four years before planning school but that experience enriched me to the extent that both my graduate alma mater and my current employer said they liked hearing about it even though it was marginally related to planning. Why you might ask? It is because substitute teaching involves a high degree of responsibility and human interaction. It is a ways away from being a mere office clerk. One thing is for sure though, planning is a competitive field. My boss told me one I beat out over 200 other applicants for the position. Planning director positions are always in demand because not everyone has the skills and experience to be a director but entry level positions are so hard to come by. Remember just like offering an internship, an employer puts in an awful amount of investment in offering an entry level position.This person has to get trained and brought up to speed until they can prove they are the right fit.

So maybe it is time to walk away from the planning profession at least for a short while. There are other fields that you can apply your planning skills to that might draw you back into planning later on in life. Have you considered anything in operations such as parking operations, shuttle operations, land surveying, or facilities operations. Heck maybe even try substitute teaching in an urban district like I did. At leas you'll get a wealth of knowledge about urban communities and get that management and human interaction experience that is so needed in planning. I think what you really need is work experience. An urban planning degree does not operate the same as a finance or engineering degree where companies may hire solely based on what you learned in school.

Thank you for this post. It's been helpful. The unfortunate thing is, you're right. It makes sense that the professionals in planning wouldn't trust young people because of the major responsibilities for planners. It's competitive. I've made it down to the final two before. However, in most scenarios, I was given an excuse of why I couldn't be hired. It was not necessarily because I was not the best person for the job, but because of a plethora of excuses mentioned earlier in this thread. I honestly came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust what I was hearing from planners anymore.I was being lied to, and I still am. For many positions.

That's why I decided it was time to look at other professions I could use my skills that I already had to obtain work. I have an interview on Wednesday in this selected profession. Do I want to come back to planning later in life? Perhaps. It depends on what happens. But, I'm not holding my breath. I am not making excuses for myself. I had to do this for myself, because I've been out of work two years now since I graduated. The skills I'm talking about don't even apply to planning. I wasn't the only student in my class who came directly from undergraduate to graduate, either. We'll see what happens on Wednesday, but I am taking advantage of what I've been given. I hope one day to get back to work in planning. I would really enjoy it. But, it may be difficult to trust "some" planning professionals after I've been lied to so much. We'll see. Thank you for the suggestions.

 

[OfficialPlanner]

Article in the Times today regarding an out of work law graduate suing her former school for inflating employment prospects so they can prey on naive students and their federal student loans: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/b...ccusing-law-school-of-inflating-job-data.html

No sane-minded person gets into planning for the money, but with so many horror stories out there regarding the difficulty of securing gainful employment, something is amiss. It may be simply a supply-demand issue. There are too many schools pumping out planning grads for a highly limited number of positions. There are those who advocate for professional planning to require a license like they do in New Jersey. The theory (I think) is it would limit the number eligible job applicants, so it's easier for AICP-holders to find jobs. But who are we kidding. Planning is not engineering.

There needs to be an honest assessment. If there are going to be twice as many highly-qualified grads as job openings every year, can the planning schools better equip students for not just traditional planning jobs but also work in the allied professions. Economic development, real estate development, site acquisition and right-of-way all immediately come to mind as rewarding and exciting careers in which a trained planner would have not too much trouble breaking into plus the different perspective they would bring to would be a strong asset.

 

[Boot]

I'm sorry to hear of your struggles. You may have mentioned it, but have your classmates had similar difficulties in finding work?

I graduated in spring of 2015 and given the horror stories I have read on here over the years, I was somewhat surprised in the success of my classmates finding work that is right in line with their planning interests.

 

[nam0806]

Article in the Times today regarding an out of work law graduate suing her former school for inflating employment prospects so they can prey on naive students and their federal student loans: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/b...ccusing-law-school-of-inflating-job-data.html

No sane-minded person gets into planning for the money, but with so many horror stories out there regarding the difficulty of securing gainful employment, something is amiss. It may be simply a supply-demand issue. There are too many schools pumping out planning grads for a highly limited number of positions. There are those who advocate for professional planning to require a license like they do in New Jersey. The theory (I think) is it would limit the number eligible job applicants, so it's easier for AICP-holders to find jobs. But who are we kidding. Planning is not engineering.

There needs to be an honest assessment. If there are going to be twice as many highly-qualified grads as job openings every year, can the planning schools better equip students for not just traditional planning jobs but also work in the allied professions. Economic development, real estate development, site acquisition and right-of-way all immediately come to mind as rewarding and exciting careers in which a trained planner would have not too much trouble breaking into plus the different perspective they would bring to would be a strong asset.

Thank you for your post. Of course, I never intended on getting in it for the money. As long as I could've made a reasonable salary that I could support myself with, and my future family, I would have been fine. As far as I know, there are a very limited amount of entry level jobs in city planning. I have looked down as many avenues as I possibly could. They've been mentioned earlier in this thread. I do think something is amiss. I'm not just saying this because I want to. It's true. With the AICP requirements, it would take a few years even for me to even be able to sit for the exam. Although I could *probably* pass it today if I could take it. Or was even eligible to take it.

So yes, I fully agree with you. There needs to be an honest assessment. My first thing I would do as a program director at any institution would be to contact local planners in various communities in the region and ask if they could contract with students for internships, so that everyone who is in the program could be getting their feet wet before getting into the profession. It did not take place at my graduate school, and when I had an exit interview, I made it clear that was the biggest weakness of the program.They didn't prepare us very well for getting into the profession. As with allied professions, it's a good discussion that has to take place. Maybe we need to look into this further down the road. But I agree with everything you said. There needs to be an honest assessment about the accuracy of job placement figures, and where we go from here.

I'm sorry to hear of your struggles. You may have mentioned it, but have your classmates had similar difficulties in finding work?

I graduated in spring of 2015 and given the horror stories I have read on here over the years, I was somewhat surprised in the success of my classmates finding work that is right in line with their planning interests.

Thank you for your post. As of my last discussion a few weeks ago with some of my classmates, some of them had not obtained jobs. Your classmates are very blessed. I had 12 classmates in my class, and I know of at least 3-5 who have not have obtained a job in an legitimate planning agency. Some are activists even. This could have changed, but as of recently, some of my classmates have not obtained work. I decided that enough was enough after a month of considering my goals with my life, and decided to take a break from planning. This has led to new opportunities, and I have more interviews scheduled this week in my new profession. I looked at what I could use to obtain work, and hopefully, it leads to a job after this interview.

 

[gtpeach]

Just out of curiosity, was anyone in a grad school program where the school found internships for you? My grad program required one, but they did not have any agreements with specific employers to provide a certain number of opportunities to the students. They did do a good job making us aware of opportunities that were available to us, and we had staff that would provide feedback on our applications if we requested it. I ended up doing a very non-traditional internship by just calling around myself, though.

 

[OfficialPlanner]

Just out of curiosity, was anyone in a grad school program where the school found internships for you? My grad program required one, but they did not have any agreements with specific employers to provide a certain number of opportunities to the students. They did do a good job making us aware of opportunities that were available to us, and we had staff that would provide feedback on our applications if we requested it. I ended up doing a very non-traditional internship by just calling around myself, though.

Mine (in the southeast) required a planning-related internship in order to graduate. Usually students would complete the internship requirement over the summer. I graduated in 2010, right in the middle of the recession. Our class definitely had a harder time finding internships than past classes, but there were still many paid and unpaid available. The grad program has a very strong alumni network that feeds internship opportunities to the department.

 

[nam0806]

Just out of curiosity, was anyone in a grad school program where the school found internships for you? My grad program required one, but they did not have any agreements with specific employers to provide a certain number of opportunities to the students. They did do a good job making us aware of opportunities that were available to us, and we had staff that would provide feedback on our applications if we requested it. I ended up doing a very non-traditional internship by just calling around myself, though.

Mine (in the southeast) required a planning-related internship in order to graduate. Usually students would complete the internship requirement over the summer. I graduated in 2010, right in the middle of the recession. Our class definitely had a harder time finding internships than past classes, but there were still many paid and unpaid available. The grad program has a very strong alumni network that feeds internship opportunities to the department.

My degree program required students to have an internship to graduate. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I had difficulties finding internships because of a few reasons. The lack of transportation until just recently did not help. Until just a few years ago, I had no way to even get to an internship. That changed in time for me to have an internship while in graduate school. The problem is, I'm not asking programs to "find" internships for students. I am saying they need to have agreements with local communities to provide students an internship experience rather than let a few students go without professional planning experience.

I attended Clemson from 2012 to 2014. The program had a lot of strengths, such as solid facilities, they provided a strong curriculum from a generalist perspective. They had strong concentrations. However, they had a plethora of weaknesses. The biggest one was not providing ALL students with the opportunity for professional experience. That trumps all the strengths. You're in graduate school to have a job at the end. I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I am saying that my terminal project has not helped me, at all. It should have. With two degrees in planning, I should have had at minimum an internship opportunity. There's no excuses.

With all of that said, I believe firmly that planning programs be upfront with their students about the job prospects in the future. There have been some responses in this thread that back up my claim. The students who are truly dedicated to the profession would not leave. I was dedicated for 8 years, and even more, if you consider my time of reading about urban planning while in high school. The whole point of this thread is to provide potential students who are interested in urban planning a perspective of someone who has been struggling to find work in the field, even after two years from graduating.

I'm a long time lurker and really haven't felt a need to contribute until now. However, I highly encourage you to get out now. Leaving planning was one of the best things that ever happened to me.

For the past 6 years, I've been working in pipeline right of way and love it. Yeah, crude prices have many of us looking up at the Sword of Damocles a lot but that's life. I just obtained my real estate license and have been casting some nets elsewhere just to be safe. Starting a new career is scary and hard but so much of it is selling your transferable skills. GIS work always got me some looks during my transition.

For what it is worth, I left planning as a result of layoff (mostly a white collar force reduction) from my first and only planning job six years ago. I worked for a small city in the Greater Houston area 3.5 years right of grad school (MCRP). It was great in many ways and I was even a non-public safety "employee of the year" one year but even before my layoff I already was disheartened in the field for a variety of reasons. The biggest being that planning has opened it self to any and every one.

What other field lets outsiders with any or no degree test for its professional certification? What's the value of a BUP or MCRP if someone with an MPA or degrees in geography, economics, or Peruvian flute playing (sarcasm) can be in the applicant pool too? Fine, planning is multidisciplinary but why offer/sell a "professional" degree in something if any one can do it or call themselves planner. People get fined or go to jail for practicing law, medicine, engineering without the proper credentials. Every planning interloper that I knew or worked with got into the field because they failed at or couldn't break into their original profession. Our years of work is their fallback. Perhaps not the best way to start my first post here but I'm not sorry if any of the non planning degree planners here are offended by my comments. I am sorry if I hijacked things though.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

This is an important post from earlier on in the thread. I believe it's the greatest post so far in this thread (although all the posts have been really helpful so far). I highly encourage all of the students who are considering urban planning to read it. I wouldn't go as far as to say to encourage students to leave the profession if it's your passion. I would never encourage students to leave if it is your dream to be an urban planner. However, I would encourage a new student to research the profession thoroughly before making a commitment to planning as I did for 8+ years.

Here's a prime example. My degree is worthless, if you look at it from the perspective of professional certification. I was reading the AICP requirements. Why should we let a person with a degree NON PLANNING RELATED sit for the exam to become a professional planner, and become an AICP member? It's ridiculous. There's no excuse for it whatsoever. Even if you have to be engaged in planning practice, why open it up to people who do not have that investment in a degree to sit for the exam? I understand planning is multidisciplinary, but I firmly believe this exam should be limited to people with an actual degree in planning. Whether it be a bachelor's of science in urban planning such as myself, or master's degree in city planning such as myself.

I fully agree with the post above. If anyone can theoretically become an AICP member, with varying college degrees (or even just a high school diploma), and varying levels of experience, what value is the degree of urban planning, which significantly limits your job prospects? If you get a degree in economics, or business, or law, you could have a lot of opportunities open up. With urban planning, can you even break into another field? I mean I guess it is possible, because I have obtained an interview in another job, but it is not planning related.

So finally, there may be some entry level jobs out there. However, with the ability of people with degrees non planning related able to sit for the exam of AICP, and virtually enter the planning profession, it is worrisome for job prospects down the road for people who actually have a degree in urban planning. I posted the same thing three or four times in this post, but really, it needs reiteration. Maybe I'll get some good responses to this.

 

[Whose Yur Planner]

Article in the Times today regarding an out of work law graduate suing her former school for inflating employment prospects so they can prey on naive students and their federal student loans: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/b...ccusing-law-school-of-inflating-job-data.html

No sane-minded person gets into planning for the money, but with so many horror stories out there regarding the difficulty of securing gainful employment, something is amiss. It may be simply a supply-demand issue. There are too many schools pumping out planning grads for a highly limited number of positions. There are those who advocate for professional planning to require a license like they do in New Jersey. The theory (I think) is it would limit the number eligible job applicants, so it's easier for AICP-holders to find jobs. But who are we kidding. Planning is not engineering.

There needs to be an honest assessment. If there are going to be twice as many highly-qualified grads as job openings every year, can the planning schools better equip students for not just traditional planning jobs but also work in the allied professions. Economic development, real estate development, site acquisition and right-of-way all immediately come to mind as rewarding and exciting careers in which a trained planner would have not too much trouble breaking into plus the different perspective they would bring to would be a strong asset.

I would agree with this. Further, there needs to be an understanding that a lot of planning is learned hands on and in the trenches. Unis do need to do a better job of preping students about life in planning. I understand that Unis are a business, but even businesses have to be fair to their clients.

 

[RandomPlanner]

Just out of curiosity, was anyone in a grad school program where the school found internships for you? My grad program required one, but they did not have any agreements with specific employers to provide a certain number of opportunities to the students. They did do a good job making us aware of opportunities that were available to us, and we had staff that would provide feedback on our applications if we requested it. I ended up doing a very non-traditional internship by just calling around myself, though.

Both grad and undergrad required internships and had some leads up their sleeve if we couldn't find them on our own. In undergrad actually, I don't remember how exactly I found my first year-long, paid internship. I think it may have been emailed out on the list-serve and I jumped on it. It was working on a HUD-funded survey for a consulting firm.

 

[gtpeach]

I'm one of those jerks that didn't go to school for planning, but my internship was at the Christian Coalition of Georgia. It turned me into a liberal! That said, I also worked as a GRA with two different engineering research centers in grad school, and I think that probably would've counted as my internship if I had pushed for it. That did more to prepare me for my professional life than anything else.

We had some leads from alums, but I know a lot of friends of mine ended up doing their internships at the state capital through their summer programs. That was probably a big advantage to going to school in a big city.

 

[nam0806]

I'm one of those jerks that didn't go to school for planning, but my internship was at the Christian Coalition of Georgia. It turned me into a liberal! That said, I also worked as a GRA with two different engineering research centers in grad school, and I think that probably would've counted as my internship if I had pushed for it. That did more to prepare me for my professional life than anything else.

We had some leads from alums, but I know a lot of friends of mine ended up doing their internships at the state capital through their summer programs. That was probably a big advantage to going to school in a big city.

Both grad and undergrad required internships and had some leads up their sleeve if we couldn't find them on our own. In undergrad actually, I don't remember how exactly I found my first year-long, paid internship. I think it may have been emailed out on the list-serve and I jumped on it. It was working on a HUD-funded survey for a consulting firm.

I would agree with this. Further, there needs to be an understanding that a lot of planning is learned hands on and in the trenches. Unis do need to do a better job of preping students about life in planning. I understand that Unis are a business, but even businesses have to be fair to their clients.

It's nice that y'all had internships. I'm really happy for you. But none of these posts really answer the question I originally posted. What is your analysis of the future of the planning profession? I mean this is what I want new students to know. I can't answer this question accurately and without bias, because of my recent struggles.

Back to what I posted earlier today, about AICP requirements. Look at this link:
https://www.planning.org/certification/pdf/bulletin.pdf#page=13

This is the AICP requirements bulletin. Why would we let people who do not have a degree in planning apply to take the exam? Even with someone who has only a high school diploma or less? Even with 8 years of experience in planning? There is a combination of education and experience that is necessary, in my opinion, to fulfill the duties of being a certified planner. Would you want a lawyer who does not have a law degree providing law advice? A doctor who does not have a medical degree operating on you and giving medical advice? The list goes on.

So my question is this: If planning is supposed to be so interdisciplinary, and we learn so much in school, why do we allow people who do not have a planning degree into the "qualified persons" pool for jobs?

 

[Whose Yur Planner]

It's nice that y'all had internships. I'm really happy for you. But none of these posts really answer the question I originally posted. What is your analysis of the future of the planning profession? I mean this is what I want new students to know. I can't answer this question accurately and without bias, because of my recent struggles.

Back to what I posted earlier today, about AICP requirements. Look at this link:
https://www.planning.org/certification/pdf/bulletin.pdf#page=13

This is the AICP requirements bulletin. Why would we let people who do not have a degree in planning apply to take the exam? Even with someone who has only a high school diploma or less? Even with 8 years of experience in planning? There is a combination of education and experience that is necessary, in my opinion, to fulfill the duties of being a certified planner. Would you want a lawyer who does not have a law degree providing law advice? A doctor who does not have a medical degree operating on you and giving medical advice? The list goes on.

So my question is this: If planning is supposed to be so interdisciplinary, and we learn so much in school, why do we allow people who do not have a planning degree into the "qualified persons" pool for jobs?

Several clarifications on my part. I don't have a planning degree, but one in a allied field. I took planning classes, but the degree is in something else-long story. Second, I didn't do my internship for a planning department. It was for a public defenders office when I was trying whether or not to go on to law school. Finally clarification-this was nearly 30 years ago. Things have changed a lot in that time.

That being said, you bring up a valid point about hiring people for planning positions that do not have a planning degree. A lot of this has to do with how the profession is viewed by the people doing the hiring, plus a lack of understanding of what planning is and who can do it. It boils down to who is actually doing the hiring and the fact that APA is largely toothless.

 

[luckless pedestrian]

[OT]Actually, you can be a lawyer without going to law school - anyone can take the bar exam - have 2 friends who are attorneys that did this

so it is with planning, if you can pass the exam, which has plenty of academic questions on it, then you can be a planner - the exam isn't tough for people that went to planning school, but it's not impossible to prepare for it, not unlike the bar exam

environmental studies BS here with a concentrations in law and economics and I am AICP since 1995
[/OT]

on your situation, I do hope you get a job in an allied field or even another field as I think you will feel better if you are working

 

[nam0806]

[OT]Actually, you can be a lawyer without going to law school - anyone can take the bar exam - have 2 friends who are attorneys that did this

so it is with planning, if you can pass the exam, which has plenty of academic questions on it, then you can be a planner - the exam isn't tough for people that went to planning school, but it's not impossible to prepare for it, not unlike the bar exam

environmental studies BS here with a concentrations in law and economics and I am AICP since 1995
[/OT]

on your situation, I do hope you get a job in an allied field or even another field as I think you will feel better if you are working

I will feel better if working. But that may not be in planning, and honestly, likely won't be. I went to my interview today, and I believe it went well. However, did I ever say you can't be a lawyer without a law degree? No. I just wouldn't want someone who hasn't been trained in law to give me legal advice.

 

[Backstrom]

I'll just jump in here with a few thoughts.

Firstly, not to belabor the point, but I am sorry for your circumstances. I had a brief period in my life (about half a year in 2013) when I sent out about 50+ applications until I struck gold. My experience pales in comparison with yours, but I at least tasted some semblance of what unemployed life as a Planner is like.

Secondly, you are right to feel indignant about comments like "things are looking upward!" and "the economy is turning around." Being 1 out of 100-150 candidates really doesn't feel any better than being 1 out of 150-200. While I do think things have gotten better, that's only true in the sense that they've gone from terrible to very bad. It is also true that there will be more openings on the horizon at the mid-level, which really primarily benefits those already in the profession.

Thirdly, I think you already know this, but the longer you are out of school, the harder it will be to find an internship, let alone a job. At some point, you will probably want to think about a clean break-- directing 100% of your resources toward leaving the profession (if you haven't already).

Fourthly, it seems like you've tried every play in the playbook, but have you considered taking up contract work? Though not the same as a full-time gig, being an independent contractor can give the valuable experience that you really need. It also helps build connections.

Fifthly, if any part of you is still desiring to stay in Planning, I'd be happy to take a look at your resume and offer some thoughts. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.

Regardless your future path, best of luck on everything.

 

[nam0806]

I'll just jump in here with a few thoughts.

Firstly, not to belabor the point, but I am sorry for your circumstances. I had a brief period in my life (about half a year in 2013) when I sent out about 50+ applications until I struck gold. My experience pales in comparison with yours, but I at least tasted some semblance of what unemployed life as a Planner is like.

Secondly, you are right to feel indignant about comments like "things are looking upward!" and "the economy is turning around." Being 1 out of 100-150 candidates really doesn't feel any better than being 1 out of 150-200. While I do think things have gotten better, that's only true in the sense that they've gone from terrible to very bad. It is also true that there will be more openings on the horizon at the mid-level, which really primarily benefits those already in the profession.

Thirdly, I think you already know this, but the longer you are out of school, the harder it will be to find an internship, let alone a job. At some point, you will probably want to think about a clean break-- directing 100% of your resources toward leaving the profession (if you haven't already).

Fourthly, it seems like you've tried every play in the playbook, but have you considered taking up contract work? Though not the same as a full-time gig, being an independent contractor can give the valuable experience that you really need. It also helps build connections.

Fifthly, if any part of you is still desiring to stay in Planning, I'd be happy to take a look at your resume and offer some thoughts. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.

Regardless your future path, best of luck on everything.

Thank you for your post. I appreciate that I am getting some real support from planners.

First of all, I just want to provide an update on the situation at hand. I went to some interviews in this new industry last week. I have been offered a second interview for the position that I have applied to. Keep in mind, this is not in planning, and is in no way connected to planning at all. It is a full time position.

To elaborate on your post, yes, I agree with you on virtually everything you said. I have applied to hundreds of planning jobs since I graduated in May 2014, including many before that. I began applying to real, full time planning positions as early as February 2014. I have been close on numerous occasions, being in the final two for one position. Neither of us were hired (read the excuses from earlier in this thread as to why).

On your second/third points, yes, it is definitely true that the longer I am out of planning, the lower my chances are that I will actually land something in the future. This is why I have been considering in the back of my mind for a few months now the alternatives. The main alternative was finding new ways to apply the skills that I already have acquired over the last few years. I received an interview offer a few weeks ago, and then a second one just recently for this same position. The point I am making here is this. As you put it, job prospects have jumped from terrible to very bad. That is not good enough for me. I am living proof that it won't help unless there is a significant jump in planning job prospects. At this point, an entry level job would be best. However, none have panned out. I won't rehash why, just reread the thread if you're interested in knowing why.

I have tried contract work. It has not panned out, as well. That was not a real high priority on my list, so I never really began pursuing it. I honestly do not want that as a career goal of mine. I am looking for, at this point, primarily full time professional planning positions. Since my interest has waned significantly over the last few months (since the beginning of 2016), the amount of planning jobs I have applied to has decreased as such. I recently applied to an entry level planning job, I will hold out hope that this will finally be the one. We will see.

Finally with your fifth point, thank you for your offer to help. Although my interest in planning has weakened greatly in the last few months, there is still a little bit left in me to apply for various planning positions. They, however, have to specifically say they're for entry level professions and no experience required. Although it has not worked out in the past. Some planning agencies and firms have lied on the job description, even after I came for an interview. I have traveled to various states for planning interviews, so it was not appreciated that I was lied to, and spent time/money/resources trying to get to the interview only to find out I was not qualified to begin with at the interview. This is why I have resentment towards many planning agencies and professionals. It is unprofessional to flat out lie and lead someone on like that.

So here are my plans moving forward. I am not interesting in any planning positions from this point forward unless they are full time planning positions. I did not obtain a master's degree in planning and deal with so much in graduate school to obtain it, to end up with something that does not meet my objectives with where I want to be. It may sound like I am being unrealistic, but the truth is that, I have set my bar extremely high. I know what I can bring to the table, and I am not backing down from that. It doesn't matter what the title is. Planning Technician, Planner I, Transportation Planner, you get the drift. However, I have applied to jobs in different industries, after taking a quick inventory of my transferable skills. They have landed me a few interviews. I even have obtained a second interview. If for some reason these jobs don't work out, I am strongly considering going back to school to learn a new trade. That was always my last case scenario if everything else failed.

So yes, like I've been saying, it's time for the planning profession to let me know whether or not there's a real future for me in it. Honestly, with no responses from recent applications I've sent out, the chances of me staying in this profession for the long term are very low. It is bleak, no matter how you want to put it, for entry level professionals. Some may get jobs, but many won't. That's why I continue to keep posting in this thread, because the new planners and new students looking at planning as a profession need to look at someone who has been struggling for many years now trying to find work.

I would strongly consider if you're a new student in planning to reassess your career choice. I am not saying to get out now because I am not a professional in this field. But, I have obtained two degrees in planning, and I can't even find an internship. This isn't because of the lack of effort on my part. I truly believe planning professionals, and planning programs in the academic sphere of planning, have a lot of questions to ask themselves about the real validity of prospects in the future of urban planning. I've said in this thread many times now that you have to be honest with yourself. You can't just keep doing the same thing hoping that changes will occur "eventually". The recession was nearly 10 years ago. Planners can't continue to use this as an excuse for why there's not a plethora of planning jobs and opportunities for the young professionals. If the economy has recovered as much as we hear about, and if the employment opportunities are really starting to "turn around", it should have happened by now. So, consider myself skeptical of this profession at this point.

I'll leave this point with this. Be honest with yourself. You have to know when it's time to look at other options. Keep all your options on the table. I have hit that point. After all the struggles I have gone through in planning, I am deeply concerned about my future in this profession. I spent so much time, money, effort, and resources into this field, just to keep any hope alive that I will be able to stay in planning. I just don't see it. I'm just being honest. This is why I have looked into other employment opportunities, and in a last case scenario, going back to school to learn a new trade. I hope it does not come down to that. It might though, and it would be unwise not to consider it if it comes down to that.