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First floor downtown housing

Hawkeye66

Hawkeye66

Cyburbian
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47
I am open to it. Retail has no future.

When property owners can get 2x the return for residential, these ordinances are rather silly.

A lot of convention for the last 30+ years is going out the window.
 
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Hawkeye66 said:
I am open to it. Retail has no future.

When property owners can get 2x the return for residential, these ordinances are rather silly.

A lot of convention for the last 30+ years is going out the window.
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I agree that this level of deregulation is appropriate in my personal professional opinion, but I would always encourage site and building design adaptability too, so retail storefronts could be added onto/into the property when market viable.
 
When we did our FBC we only required retail-capable first floors on 600 feet of street in a 800+ acre plan area. We have a loooong way to go before we need any more retail and a 0.4 (that ZERO Point Four) % rental vacancy rate in the county.
 
I want to adjust my statement above to: so retail commercial occupancy storefronts could be added onto/into the property when market viable.

People tend to focus just on retail uses, but the important physical trait is buildings with commercially adaptable frontages (ie pedestrian oriented, transparency, low/no entry threshold, very small or zero setback, etc).
 
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We went through and basically designated A and B streets in downtown. A still requires fronts be non-residential. Bs should be designed to support non-residential, but can have 1st floor frontage residential. We're still trying to push people to reserve major corners and others prime spots for restaurant/retail.
 
We allow it, but we have design standards that require access from the street to your apartment. Typically it's a gate in the patio. Apartments in our area hate doing it because they don't do brownstone style anything here with a front door out to the street and it's tough to secure the patio when we allow nothing over a 4' fence. I usually made them do a 4' solid fence with open fencing above that to get the right mix of openness and security.
 
There are some zoning nazis out there that I am aware of that say allowing first floor residential in a walkable downtown area is the mark of the beast. First floor residential will destroy your downtown, is the sermon I hear. The idea that retail is dead in not incorrect. Thus, allowing residential in those spaces makes sense, I guess, but I don't know if conversion therapy is available for those who find it sacrilegious. Those zoning nazis I am referring to can be found on linkedin as thought leaders.
 
During the Y2K's in our little cotton town with it's crumbling type III city blocks, there was a stampede of interest in mixed use. In that free wheeling era, when the tab of a fast loan was passed right up the financial food chain so rapidly to mortgage based securities, a new zoning category, Business/Residential, sparked a lot of rehab and development. Here state code requires 2-hr separation between B uses, as well as a 1-hr exit separation between res and biz.

Local inspector was clueless, and lots of space was developed in violation of state building code.

Later, when I took over local zoning admin, underwriters and appraisers were confused by local zoning rules, and I had to clean up a parade load of horse droppings with analysis and letters that cleared up their problems when comping uses and verifying code compliance.
 
Wannaplan? said:
There are some zoning nazis out there that I am aware of that say allowing first floor residential in a walkable downtown area is the mark of the beast. First floor residential will destroy your downtown, is the sermon I hear. The idea that retail is dead in not incorrect. Thus, allowing residential in those spaces makes sense, I guess, but I don't know if conversion therapy is available for those who find it sacrilegious. Those zoning nazis I am referring to can be found on linkedin as thought leaders.
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I mostly agree with you, but please don't talk about religion and Nazis in the same sentences. I am a firm agnostic, hardtop and not convertible at all, BTW.
 
Its even worse when your small town is 10 miles from Wal-Mart, Hy-Vee and Menards. I am surprised our little grocery stays in business.
 
mendelman said:
I want to adjust my statement above to: so retail commercial occupancy storefronts could be added onto/into the property when market viable.

People tend to focus just on retail uses, but the important physical trait is buildings with commercially adaptable frontages (ie pedestrian oriented, transparency, low/no entry threshold, very small or zero setback, etc).
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yes, that lol
 
mendelman said:
I want to adjust my statement above to: so retail commercial occupancy storefronts could be added onto/into the property when market viable.

People tend to focus just on retail uses, but the important physical trait is buildings with commercially adaptable frontages (ie pedestrian oriented, transparency, low/no entry threshold, very small or zero setback, etc).
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Do you have good standards that you feel would allow commercial conversion? We've got some language in place, but I don't really feel like they are sufficient or really address it well.
 
We don't allow first floor residential in the downtown core around the courthouse square. A couple blocks off the square and its all good.
 
bureaucrat#3 said:
Do you have good standards that you feel would allow commercial conversion? We've got some language in place, but I don't really feel like they are sufficient or really address it well.
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Entry on the street every 80 feet minimum, 50%+ fenestration, finished floor -6 inches to +18 inches from sidewalk elevation, minimum 18 feet from finished first floor elevation to finished second floor elevation.
 
Our language doesn't address use. It just says you need these standards like a door every X feet and you need to meet one of our entry facade standards. Like have a patio or storefront or a bunch of different styles.
 
The 8 unit condo project I funded a couple of years ago was in a mixed use zone that required street front commercial, so the project was designed with an office space. Surprisingly the zoning board requested that it be an additional housing unit since there was starting to be a lot of vacant street level commercial space. We added extra sound attenuation upgrades for the unit.

I am fine as long as the entrance to the unit isn't directly onto the sidewalk. That's just gross. Here's a building that used to have all ground floor commercial that converted it to apartments https://www.google.com/maps/place/203+Academy+St,+Jersey+City,+NJ+07306/@40.7274991,-74.0636993,3a,88.6y,113.16h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0TPOgJpI6m19cYM3H8M87A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x89c25732c9279b5f:0xfadf9dff2be73605!8m2!3d40.7274652!4d-74.0635469!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11bw4lf93s (203 Academy St · 203 Academy St, Jersey City, NJ 07306)
 
kjel said:
I am fine as long as the entrance to the unit isn't directly onto the sidewalk. That's just gross. Here's a building that used to have all ground floor commercial that converted it to apartments https://www.google.com/maps/place/203+Academy+St,+Jersey+City,+NJ+07306/@40.7274991,-74.0636993,3a,88.6y,113.16h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0TPOgJpI6m19cYM3H8M87A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x89c25732c9279b5f:0xfadf9dff2be73605!8m2!3d40.7274652!4d-74.0635469!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11bw4lf93s (203 Academy St · 203 Academy St, Jersey City, NJ 07306)
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That's kind of the fault in our code. We allow for brownstone style which no one builds here or allow other entrances to the sidewalk like patio entrances. What we don't allow is a main entrance style building that has one main entry, maybe with a doorman because we want to be fancy, and then throw in some secondary entrances for residents only. I think it would work better and if you do it right look better than the stuff we allow.
 
kjel said:
The 8 unit condo project I funded a couple of years ago was in a mixed use zone that required street front commercial, so the project was designed with an office space. Surprisingly the zoning board requested that it be an additional housing unit since there was starting to be a lot of vacant street level commercial space. We added extra sound attenuation upgrades for the unit.

I am fine as long as the entrance to the unit isn't directly onto the sidewalk. That's just gross. Here's a building that used to have all ground floor commercial that converted it to apartments https://www.google.com/maps/place/203+Academy+St,+Jersey+City,+NJ+07306/@40.7274991,-74.0636993,3a,88.6y,113.16h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0TPOgJpI6m19cYM3H8M87A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x89c25732c9279b5f:0xfadf9dff2be73605!8m2!3d40.7274652!4d-74.0635469!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11bw4lf93s (203 Academy St · 203 Academy St, Jersey City, NJ 07306)
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I think the building across the street (which looks 'newer') does it better as a mixed-use urban building.

Also, Chicago has alot of these forms and types - whether purpose built or evolved.
 
mendelman said:
I think the building across the street (which looks 'newer') does it better as a mixed-use urban building.

Also, Chicago has alot of these forms and types - whether purpose built or evolved.
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Those were purpose built. The door opens into a little vestibule where the mailboxes and stairwell is. The entry doors of the units open into the vestibule or stair landing for the upper floors.
 
Here's an example of what we do. Notice the patio style ground floor units. Developers tend to hate this for a lack of security. I don't blame them.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
DVD said:
Here's an example of what we do. Notice the patio style ground floor units. Developers tend to hate this for a lack of security. I don't blame them.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com www.google.com
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I think that's fine. Can barrier fencing be placed in the setbacks to create separation?

Here's an example of a newer building in my last employer's downtown. It has 'storefronts' but we permitted non-commercial use of the small 'storefront' in each two story live-work unit. They could make them active commercial uses if they wished with no major functional building change.

This is a good pedestrian oriented downtown example.
 
That is a zero setback. Lots of ROW on that street. The buildings are allowed a zero setback so fences can be placed at zero with the building. Depending on the style of front they use they are required a patio or an arcade or some other cool feature which pushes the building back, but lets the feature come forward. If you're bored and go google driving around just of Central Ave you should find some storefront styles that allow the commercial buildings to go up to the zero setback. You might even find an arcade which is what should be done most often down here, you know, for the shade, but it's not.
 
DVD said:
That is a zero setback. Lots of ROW on that street. The buildings are allowed a zero setback so fences can be placed at zero with the building. Depending on the style of front they use they are required a patio or an arcade or some other cool feature which pushes the building back, but lets the feature come forward. If you're bored and go google driving around just of Central Ave you should find some storefront styles that allow the commercial buildings to go up to the zero setback. You might even find an arcade which is what should be done most often down here, you know, for the shade, but it's not.
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Got it.

The location and space on either side of the sidewalk made me presume the ROW edges.

Is that like a 70-80 foot ROW? Yeesh.
 
Faust_Motel said:
When we did our FBC we only required retail-capable first floors on 600 feet of street in a 800+ acre plan area. We have a loooong way to go before we need any more retail and a 0.4 (that ZERO Point Four) % rental vacancy rate in the county.
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gotta love a FBC
 
We use a hybrid FBC. First floor residential is a no-go in our CBD, it is not all that massive. Having said that, we also for way more than 'retail' there as well. This includes small format niche manufacturing, Art Galleries & Studios, Microbreweries, Micro-distilleries, Restaurants (No drive-through), and more. We also have a downtown periphery zoning district that is a mixed use and allows everything that the CBD has, plus residential - SFD, Dup, TH, and Apartment Buildings.
 
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