Economic and community development vs. urban planning

[MV1138]

I haven't given up on my goal of becoming a planner of some kind. I recently learned that Penn State's online Master's in Community and Economic Development actually costs the same as Eastern Michigan's MURP. Previously, I've been focusing on finding a Master's in Urban Planning, but it seems that these degrees relating to community development are similar in course structure. Is there any difference between planning and "development?"

I don't even know if I'd ever be able to get into Penn State, I imagine they're pretty selective, but let's say I could:

1) Would it matter that it was technically on online degree, though one run by Penn State?
2) Would it matter that my degree would not be specifically in planning? Would I be able to get jobs with a degree in community and economic development?

I'm 90% sure this is the last thread I'll need to start on the topic of "where should I go/what should I do?", haha. You guys are really helpful, though, and I'm not sure this would've fit in my old thread, so apologies for starting another one.

 

[bostonplanner]

1) My sense is that an online degree holds less "worth" than an in-person one, for better or worse. I actually would be surprised if an online degree was selective - I might be wrong but I think of those as more degree mills that will give a degree to anyone willing to pay (and do the work). Also, while you'll learn the same subjects, there's a lot of value in learning from your peers in a classroom setting, and, more importantly, networking (with peers, professors, alums, etc.)

2) I wouldn't be too hung up on the title of the degree if it fits your interest. It's not like, e.g., an MBA that is standard across business schools. Master in urban planning, city planning, urban and regional planning, environmental and urban policy, etc. etc. More important to find a program that fits your needs/interests.

 

[MV1138]

Normally I'd agree with you about online programs...but I mean, this is Penn State, not University of Phoenix. Wouldn't that make a difference?

 

[stroskey]

1. Make sure you check with Penn State to see if the degree is the same as their on campus programs. If so there won't be any difference in reputation. Your degree says Penn State - no one but you will know it is from an online program. Since it is your Master's I wouldn't worry about it. I would never do a Bachelor's online but this route will allow you to get a Master's and gain work experience at the same time.

2. I have a Master's of Community Development and Bachelor's of Planning so I feel qualified to answer this. Community Development deals more with the social aspects to a community rather than just typical urban planning. I've found it to be much more rewarding than dealing with landscaping standards and drainage patterns, etc. These things and roads, zoning, setback requirements, etc are all important but Community Development shows you how those things impact people in realistic ways. I would venture that most all planners want walkable neighborhoods with unique craftsman homes with parks nearby yet that isn't always realistic to all segments of society. Planning deals with on-the-ground tangible issues whereas Community Development can give us tools on why certain things are/are not feasible - education system failures, family structures, community groups (or lack thereof), etc. I've found planning is mostly for new projects and developers where Community Development is for those who already live in existing areas. A fair warning - people who aren't in this business will raise an eyebrow. I've even been laughed at when I told someone what my Master's was in. It's not a program where you can give a 30 second elevator speech to those who know nothing about it.

 

[bostonplanner]

As I said I don't know much about online degrees but I would argue the difference in admissions standards (if it exists) matters. If all you have to do is essentially be able to afford to pay that's less valuable than if you were chosen competitively. Harvard offers various degrees including masters through its Executive Education school, but the degree is not equivalent to the other schools that are uber-competitive. Others may disagree but I'd argue it's unethical to play off an online degree as the same as an in-school degree, especially if the two programs come from different schools (Penn State's online degrees are part of its World Campus). There was a case not too long ago where a woman whose career was essentially ruined when it came out that her business degree from Harvard was through its Exec Educ. program, not the Business School (even though she may have take similar classes and even been taught by some of the same professors).

 

[MV1138]

I see your point. Their degree requires three letters of recommendations, a written statement, the usual, except for GRE scores but I've seen a lot of brick and mortar schools that don't require those. In fact, I never had to take the GRE.

So the degree focuses less on planning then. Can you get a "real" job with it? Or is it one of those where you can get a job if you happen to have very specific experience in something else as well? I'm interested in what I read you can do with it. Seems rewarding, but I've already gone into debt for one rewarding Masters that doesn't pay the bills. Is it practical enough?

And I agree about the ethics. I have no Interest in passing the degree off as something it's not. I genuinely didn't know if it made any difference. I mean, it may say "world campus" but its still a Penn State product.

 

[bostonplanner]

I would suggest you see if you can talk with alums that did the online degree to see their experiences, how they found a job, etc. Their career services should be able to put you in touch. Speaking to career services is a good idea regardless.

I see your point. Their degree requires three letters of recommendations, a written statement, the usual, except for GRE scores but I've seen a lot of brick and mortar schools that don't require those. In fact, I never had to take the GRE.

So the degree focuses less on planning then. Can you get a "real" job with it? Or is it one of those where you can get a job if you happen to have very specific experience in something else as well? I'm interested in what I read you can do with it. Seems rewarding, but I've already gone into debt for one rewarding Masters that doesn't pay the bills. Is it practical enough?

And I agree about the ethics. I have no Interest in passing the degree off as something it's not. I genuinely didn't know if it made any difference. I mean, it may say "world campus" but its still a Penn State product.

 

[stroskey]

So the degree focuses less on planning then. Can you get a "real" job with it? Or is it one of those where you can get a job if you happen to have very specific experience in something else as well? I'm interested in what I read you can do with it. Seems rewarding, but I've already gone into debt for one rewarding Masters that doesn't pay the bills. Is it practical enough?

And I agree about the ethics. I have no Interest in passing the degree off as something it's not. I genuinely didn't know if it made any difference. I mean, it may say "world campus" but its still a Penn State product.

I got my Master's after I already had a job so I cannot answer if it helps or not. Planning in general focuses on intangible like public processes, ordinance interpretations, etc. We don't work in the world of engineering or high finance where there are specific skills you need. My Masters allows me to qualify for many more jobs than just a bachelor's. Whether those are "real" or not, that's up to you. I will say that experience is the single best thing you can do, over a masters.

 

[MV1138]

I did some research and I guess I never realized that extension schools were purely "for-profit." I always assumed they were the same as the university that hosted them, just spread out so that more people could attend.

At any rate, I found an option that might help me down at Eastern Michigan. I still have to find a way to get there (2 hours away) but they offer a certificate in Public Land Planning and Development Management. It's a five-course graduate certificate. EMU is PAB-accredited. Two courses are public policy/administration type and three are specific to planning and zoning. It's a (much) cheaper way for me to dip my foot in the water, see if I can't land an internship or volunteer locally and maybe parlay that and my MA in history into a job.

I may end up just doing the Master's, but only as a last-ditch effort. I simply can't afford the debt without a realistic prospect of a job. At the very least, I think I'd be better off than taking an online certificate from an extension school. And, I imagine the credits would transfer to a Master's if I chose to go on.

 

[Truths&Rights]

Re: the Penn State program, I would say it's more important to speak to people that have actually graduated from the program and are out in the workforce than anything else. My hunch is that a lot of people doing these program have been out in the workforce for a little while and just need a rubber-stamp master's degree to further their career. A lot of master's degrees these days are like that.

Most people I know that work in Community Economic Development/Community Development, or straight up Economic Development do not have degrees in these fields (including me). The idea of a degree in any of these fields isn't really something that is long established.

Just because a university is a "non-profit" doesn't mean they aren't in it to make a buck. They all are. Your tuition dollars go to pay the overinflated salaries and perks of the big name professors/top administrators, expensive buildings, subsidize money losing educational programs, pay for other students' scholarships, etc.

Unless you already have a graduate degree or a professional ugrad degree, I'd be leery of certificate programs. They don't mean the same thing as Master's degrees to most prospective employers. Also, there is no guarantee certificate programs will transfer to a Master's degree program, even at the same school. You need to check with the school and be very specific about your questions. In general Master's degree programs in any field do not accept transfer credits. Those that do are the exception, not the rule.

MV, where do you live in Michigan? Trying to hold a job and commuting two hours back and forth to night classes is highly unlikely to work out. I'd also keep in mind that Michigan, especially southeast Michigan/the tri-county area isn't exactly booming with planning related jobs. I know several planners that are looking for jobs there right now actually.

 

[MV1138]

All right, I'm back once more. After doing a lot more research and digging, would it make more sense to get a second bachelor's than a graduate degree?

First off, I know that on paper, in general, the graduate degree would make more sense. But, as I've noted, such a move would require me to relocate and pay a lot of money when I already have a lot of debt.

I'm in a bit of a crisis at the moment, trying to chart a course after my first few career options have failed. From what I understand I could find work with just a Bachelor's, but not advanced positions and not in heavily urban areas. That's okay, I like rural areas and small towns. The lower cost of the bachelor's is a huge attraction to me, and the coursework seems pretty varied at a local university so would make me well-rounded, I think.

But would a potential employer think it's weird if I got a bachelor's after already having a master's in another topic? I don't want it to seem like I can't handle graduate work, that's not really the issue here.

 

[Truths&Rights]

All right, I'm back once more. After doing a lot more research and digging, would it make more sense to get a second bachelor's than a graduate degree?

No. Depending on the university, they may not allow you to obtain a bachelor's degree with Federal Student Loans anyway. You'd have to check with the university's financial aid office. I know some people that tried to do this before, and it didn't work out.

First off, I know that on paper, in general, the graduate degree would make more sense. But, as I've noted, such a move would require me to relocate and pay a lot of money when I already have a lot of debt.

How much debt are we talking about? Unfortunately, career changes often require additional education and if you aren't able to pay for that additional education in cash, students loans are the only option.

From what I understand I could find work with just a Bachelor's, but not advanced positions and not in heavily urban areas. That's okay, I like rural areas and small towns. The lower cost of the bachelor's is a huge attraction to me, and the coursework seems pretty varied at a local university so would make me well-rounded, I think.

There is no guarantee you will find work in either of the fields we're talking about here, period. If you are worried about not finding a job, I would pursue a different career that is more in demand. The number of open positions nationwide is small, and you only need to look at the threads on this board about MUP graduates taking 6 months to a year to find work to see how tough it is out there.

Rural/small town jobs aren't necessarily easy to get either. They may be *easier* to get than a job in a large metropolitan area, but that doesn't make them necessarily easy to get. Having lived in both major cities and smaller towns, I can also tell you that the cost of living difference isn't as great as you think.

But would a potential employer think it's weird if I got a bachelor's after already having a master's in another topic?

Yes. It would raise a red flag at a minimum. Try explaining this to the hiring manager in small town where people tend to be very risk adverse and conservative in their decision-making and evaluation of job applicants. My guess is you wouldn't get past too many resume screenings.