Humor 🤣 Down with Shakespeare

[Maister]

Let's be perfectly frank; Shakespeare may be the Immortal Bard, but mere mortals like you and I don't unnerstand wut he's talkin' 'bout. I'm certain his themes deal with universal topics and his insights into the human condition are profound, but unless one has a Phd. in English literature, much of what he wrote remains obscure to modern understanding without significant assistance from some sort of exegesis (explanation with commentary usually provided by some briar-pipe-smoking-tweed-jacket-wearing-professorial type).
As I see it, the problem is not so much that Billy Shakes used unfamiliar words, so much that he used familiar words in an unfamiliar manner to our modern understanding. To illustrate, I have selected a passage at random from Romeo & Juliet (Act 1 Scene 4):

Mercutio: If love be rough with you, be rough with love;
prick love for pricking, and you beat love down.
Give me a case to put my visage in: a visor for a visor!
What care I what curious eye doth quote deformities?
Here are the beetle brows shall blush for me.

Yeah. I guess I can more or less understand the first part - Mercutio is telling (probably Romeo) to 'buck up kiddo, don't let heartache get you down'. But the remainder of the quote belongs to another language. Tell me it's not just me, but doesn't Shakespeare suck? I'm beginning to think Shakespeare has little enough relevance today that he should perhaps be dropped from high school english curricula.

 

[jordanb]

The last part is saying that he couldn't care less how he looks.

Shakespeare's language is archaic, but so are all English writers from that period. Problem is, you throw out Elizabethan writers and you've thrown out 10% of everything worth reading that's ever been written in the English Language. Students need at least a taste of them, and Shakespeare is as good as any. As hard as his plays are to read, they're nothing like the epic poems of Milton et al. :-c

Also remember that they are plays and they were meant to be performed, not read. Watch a Shakespearean play and guaranteed you'll get a lot more out of it.

Otherwise, you need to sit down with a dictionary, I'm afraid. There are just too many words that have fallen out of common usage to make sense of it without looking things up. In the above, for instance, I had to look up "beetle brows" (it's a brow that juts out really far from the head, like Moe's from The Simpsons.) There are also editions of the plays that are heavily noted to help you make sense of them.

 

[donk]

We had a high school english assignment that was supposed to be "creative" and revolved around shakespeare. My solution a cereal box critique of Shakespeare. it was somethign like

Shakespeareo's - The Archaic Playwrite that is good for you. Contains, language you'll never use, characters you can't relate to

There was more that i can't remember now. I do remember the teacher not finding it funny or creative and getting a poor mark on it.

 

[zman]

I never thought Shakespeare should be taught in any school. My friend's sister majored in Shakespearean Literature in college.... ... talk about a waste of space...
I have always been frustrated with the Bard and feel studies of his life and influence should be taught briefly, but full-scale reading of his works and required study of EVERYONE should be nixed....

...but that's just MY opinion, I could be wrong...

 

[Suburb Repairman]

I think Shakespeare is a necessary study for high school & college English Lit classes; I just don't like how it is taught. Most school districts won't let teachers use the more interesting Shakepearian comedies (Probably because of the off-color humor used to appeal to the po' fo'ks back then). I loath the Shakepearian dramas. If they would use the comedies, then students might be more willing to read them.

I like most of the older writers, but not too many from Shakespeare's period. I more likely to read stuff by Machiavelli, Hobbs, Locke, Votaire, etc. Some of that might be because I like reading political theory 8-| . I'm such a nerd sometimes... OK, maybe all the time!

 

[Maister]

The last part is saying that he couldn't care less how he looks.

Shakespeare's language is archaic, but so are all English writers from that period. Problem is, you throw out Elizabethan writers and you've thrown out 10% of everything worth reading that's ever been written in the English Language. Students need at least a taste of them, and Shakespeare is as good as any. As hard as his plays are to read, they're nothing like the epic poems of Milton et al. :-c

Also remember that they are plays and they were meant to be performed, not read. Watch a Shakespearean play and guaranteed you'll get a lot more out of it.

Otherwise, you need to sit down with a dictionary, I'm afraid. There are just too many words that have fallen out of common usage to make sense of it without looking things up. In the above, for instance, I had to look up "beetle brows" (it's a brow that juts out really far from the head, like Moe's from The Simpsons.) There are also editions of the plays that are heavily noted to help you make sense of them.

See, I woulda had to look up the beetle brow thing too - and that's part of what I'm saying. One can't read Shakespeare, One must study Shakespeare to acquire even the grossest understanding. It's work and not fun. Not many folks would put that kind of effort into, say, Tom Clancy. I'm afraid that any winning argument on behalf of Shakespeare is going to have to go something like 'Sure, no one understands what he's saying, but if you put all the requisite effort into studying what he meant it's all worthwhile'. I reserve the right to remain skeptical in this regard - is there really no adequate vehicle to convey whatever truths he intended to impart that can't be made accessable by/for our times? (hmmm West Side Story?).
Concerning the play vs reading thing. I kind of know what you mean but I should mention the reason that I started this thread is cuz I watched Roman Polanskis 1971 'Macbeth' last night. You can get a little better idea of context by watching actions unfold on stage, but still run into the problem of not understanding all the 'thrice didst the coxwain's birdie chirp, ere the borrough did tell of the miller's torrid coursing.....'. At least with the book you can reread a passage ten times while scratching your head.
Let me rephrase my quandry - is what's so great about Shakespeare what he said or how he said it?

 

[pete-rock]

Also remember that they are plays and they were meant to be performed, not read. Watch a Shakespearean play and guaranteed you'll get a lot more out of it.

That's the same excuse my English teacher always used in high school.

 

[Wannaplan?]

There once was a talking Barbie doll that said, "Math is hard!"

 

[Maister]

There once was a talking Barbie doll that said, "Math is hard!"

[No irony whatsoever]See, even Barbie agrees. I rest my case.[/irony]

 

[SkeLeton]

What I think of Shakespeare (and Cervantes for the case): Not my favorite literature style, and I hate Olde Englishe (and Español antiguo del gran reyno de Castilla)
:-D
There's no science and the fiction is just plain olde boring.

 

[jordanb]

Shakespeare’s appeal is both. He was both very perceptive and articulate. But it’s true: you can get every idea he ever had out of modern literature if you wanted. You can do so because modern writers are studied in Shakespeare and thus, have a tendency to regurgitate him. Of course, Shakespeare was often regurgitating Virgil, who was regurgitating Homer, so really, no point in reading them either. Fact is, if a literary work is groundbreaking and fantastically original, then maybe 10% of the ideas expressed in it actually came out of the author’s head, and the rest are derivative. In less seminal works, that percentage is even lower.

So why ever read anything ever written more than 150 years ago or so? (Folks like Twain and Fitzgerald are still “easy reading” for us, although Twain’s dialects can get tricky, so I trust I can be forgiven for keeping them in the “worth reading” category.)

We need to experience classic literature to understand how modern literary thought has evolved. It’s the same reason why we study political history. If you don’t know where you came from, you can’t know where you are. I suppose some people don’t see value in understanding context. So sure, for them, Twain can be the beginning of true Literature, and everything before him can be discarded as incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo. The rest of us are, unfortunately, going to have to get out our dictionaries and spend some time “studying” in addition to “reading.”

 

[jordanb]

What I think of Shakespeare (and Cervantes for the case): Not my favorite literature style, and I hate Olde Englishe (and Español antiguo del gran reyno de Castilla)
:-D
There's no science and the fiction is just plain olde boring.

Shakespeare is NOT Old English!

Shakespeare's language is best described as "early modern english."

Old English began dying out after the Norman Conquest in 1066 (the period of transition between 1066 and c. 1500 is known as "middle english"). Shakespeare wrote his plays in the early 1600s, 650 years after the Norman Conquest and at least 100 years after the disappearence of the last remnents of Old English in Britian.

Old English is completly incomrehensible to the modern English speaker (it would have been incomprehensible to Shakspeare too). It has as much in common with Modern English as German does. Scholars who want to read Old English texts must learn it as they would a foreign language.

Here's a sample of Old English (from Beowulf):

Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal

in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile
felahror feran on frean wære.
Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe,
swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd,

 

[SkeLeton]

jordanb.. grab a paper bag and breathe into it please
I know Shakespeare isn't OLD ENGLISH... I call it olde (note the unnecesary e at the end of many words) as a gimmick of the olde tymes spelling, OK?

BTW that Beowulf, quotew you posted.. may be old english, but it sure isn't readable.

 

[pete-rock]

BTW that Beowulf, quotew you posted.. may be old english, but it sure isn't readable.

That's his point, SkeLeton: Old English was, for the most part, a whole 'nother language. It evolved from something completely foreign to us, into what we speak today.

 

[Maister]

We need to experience classic literature to understand how modern literary thought has evolved. It’s the same reason why we study political history. If you don’t know where you came from, you can’t know where you are.

Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. Seeing as how I used this very argument on Friday to try convince my nephew in the 8th grade that he should be studying the Reformation, I guess I'd be pretty hard pressed not to apply it to Shakespeare. :-$

 

[Wulf9]

A knowledge of Shakespeare helps in writing staff reports.

"Forsooth, yon varlet hath foully besmirched the fair hills of our fine hamlet, and deserveth to be flogged, or, by the nonce, refused yon requested writ of variance."

 

[Maister]

A knowledge of Shakespeare helps in writing staff reports.

"Forsooth, yon varlet hath foully besmirched the fair hills of our fine hamlet, and deserveth to be flogged, or, by the nonce, refused yon requested writ of variance."

True story: at a Planning Commish meeting I once quoted Shakespeare after an elected official decided to switch sides and support the developer when it appeared to him the tide was turning on a proposal (after his apparent reversal I said 'et tu Brute?'). Only one person in the audience 'got it', and all eyes went to her when she busted out laughing.

 

[Plannerbabs]

Another reason for studying Shakespeare and his ilk is that by reading him, we gain a greater appreciation for the written and spoken word. Reading something that gets the brain steaming helps perpetuate literacy. If we start to dumb down curricula for stuff that's more immediately accessible and easier to read without the entire OED handy, then we lose something important. As jordanb said, we have to read it to know where we came from. Reading Shakespeare also helps us wherever we're going--his insights into the human condition are as relevent now as they were 500 years ago, his puns are dreadful and hilarious, and he's just plain brilliant. As for his dramas, if you know the history behind them, they can be quite thrilling. Richard III for example. When you read "Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;" when then goes on to "I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have I laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels, and dreams,
To set my brother Clarence and the king
In deadly hate the one against the other;
And if King Edward be as true and just
As I am subtle, false, and treacherous,
This day should Clarence closely be mewed up
About a prophecy which says that G
Of Edward's heirs the murderer shall be."
Pretty intense stuff.

 

[jordanb]

^-- My favorite Shakespeare Moment was the Saint Crispian's Day speech in Henry V

This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day!

 

[JNL]

Tell me it's not just me, but doesn't Shakespeare suck? I'm beginning to think Shakespeare has little enough relevance today that he should perhaps be dropped from high school english curricula.

I strongly disagree. Yes, the average person needs some assistance in understanding some of it, but with a little help, you can unlock an appreciation of very witty, insightful, entertaining writing. I was lucky enough to have a couple of high school teachers who really brought it alive for us. We would take turns to read aloud a passage each day, and any bits we didn't understand, we'd ask about as we went along. Read aloud and in context, you'd be surprised how much you can pick up!

I was fortunate enough to see the touring Royal Shakespeare Company perform 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' when I was at high school, and to this day, it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. My stomach hurt from laughing so much!

And on the point of relevance, well! When you can understand his writing you'll understand that his work will ALWAYS be relevant. That's what's so neat about it! Sure it's 'old school' in style, but the enduring themes touch on issues that affect us all: life, death, love, loss, sex, lots about sex!, greed, boredom, hate, pain.....

Up with Shakespeare!

 

[The One]

Shakespeare.....

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........Snort....gurgle...........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......I can't read one page at night without being in a coma within 5 minutes.......Gawd that stuff is no fun to read.....life's too short for that kind of abuse.....there are many better ways to increase one's intellectual capacity............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I saw As You Like It on the green in London and loved it.........the stuff just shouldn't be read.....I agree it should be viewed.....

 

[nighthawk1959]

I must have some wires crossed. I have read some Shakespeare and actually was able to follow the dialect. Rather enjoyable to be honest. Not exactly light reading but good for a mental workout.

 

[Cardinal]

Once more into the breach, jordanb, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead!

Shakespeare hath the power to move people. His works are truly timeless, as are the subjects about which he writes. The language may now be a bit archaic, but is it any more difficult than Faulkner's stream of consciousness style? Should we only read those things that are simple?

My words fly up, my thoughts remain below:
Words without thoughts never to heaven go.

 

[Zoning Goddess]

I can watch it but I can't read it. Normally it's the other way around.

 

[Follow the $$]

I was fortunate enough to see the touring Royal Shakespeare Company perform 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' when I was at high school, and to this day, it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. My stomach hurt from laughing so much!


Up with Shakespeare!

I was equally fortunate to have the opportunity to see the RSC perform "A Midsummer NIght's Dream". Did you have the GQ version of Puck wearing the gold lame' pants and swinging from the rafters? What a great play. Do you think Maister chose to quote such a lewd passage from Romeo just to see if we are paying attention? I am now inspired to go check the video of Leonardo di Caprio out of the library.

Shakespeare rocks.

 

[Maister]

Right or wrong is there a general tendency to put people who like Shakespeare in the same category as folks who like opera or ballet?

 

[ofos]

Right or wrong is there a general tendency to put people who like Shakespeare in the same category as folks who like opera or ballet?

I sincerely hopeth not else perchance I shall abandon those sweet tomes.

 

[btrage]

Right or wrong is there a general tendency to put people who like Shakespeare in the same category as folks who like opera or ballet?

I disagree. I'm a fan of Bill, but have no desire to go to the opera or ballet. My wife also likes Bill, and even she doesn't like the opera or ballet. I even offered to take her to the ballet and she was like, ummmmmm...........no, lets go to a hockey game. I love my wife.

 

[Bear Up North]

Jets VS Sharks

To this Bear, the work of Will Shakes is better when morphed-into moments such as on this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8R9GiLImSw&feature=related

Bear

 

[arcplans]

When it comes to Shakespeare:

Prose before Hos

 

[kjel]

I had wonderful English/Literature teachers in both middle and high school. Appreciation for Shakespeare is entirely dependent upon how it is introduced and taught. Growing up in Oregon I also had the opportunity to take in the renowned Ashland Shakespeare Festival and the Portland Shakespeare Company's performances as well. R.T. doesn't have the same quality of teachers that I regards to literature, but since she was home schooled last spring when the Shakespeare unit was on tap she got my take on it and seemed to enjoy it.

 

[Maister]

bump

So I picked up Merchant of Venice last night as a sort of experiment to see if additional decades of life experience have made Shakespeare any more accessible to a modern English speakers' understanding. The experiment revealed the following:

 

[The Terminator]

Shakespeare is from the 1500s, of course, it's going to be dense! I support teaching Shakespeare once in High School English, as part of a "classics" unit. But as for appreciating him, it's always going to be a niche interest.

He was certainly the greatest English playwright of the 16th century.

I played the Gravedigger in Hamlet, senior year.

 

[michaelskis]

bump

So I picked up Merchant of Venice last night as a sort of experiment to see if additional decades of life experience have made Shakespeare any more accessible to a modern English speakers' understanding. The experiment revealed the following:

English changes and adapts over time. We might have the same alphabet and many of the same words, but flow and meaning can be extremely different.

That is why people are constantly arguing about the meaning in everything from the Federalist Papers to the King James Bible.

 

[luckless pedestrian]

Wow - I took 4 semesters of Shakespeare (2 from Dan Berrigan, the famous anti-nukes protester from the 80's) and what I learned is he mastered all the basic storylines and really most stories follow some aspect of a Shakespearean tale - it's completely relevant

 

[ursus]

Wow - I took 4 semesters of Shakespeare (2 from Dan Berrigan, the famous anti-nukes protester from the 80's) and what I learned is he mastered all the basic storylines and really most stories follow some aspect of a Shakespearean tale - it's completely relevant

I'm pretty sure that "I took four semesters of Shakespeare from an anti-nukes protester in the 80's..." is a line that Joyce says in "Stranger Things" (or at least she should, at some point) and THAT proves your point. Completely relevant. The Old Bard himself - or at least Aaron Sorkin - would have liked that line you penned, lp.